What is Gundam?

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

You know what'd freak me out? Being nailed to a cross. Now that's a horrible death I wouldn't want my kids to know about.

^Trust me Patlabor 3 is much worse than this ....

[Poseidal]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

So is it any worse than being eaten by the big bad wolf? Or being chased by a giant while climbing down a bean-stalk?

Children knows far more than what the US adults give them credits for.

It is when death is shown in a graphical fashion, with the physical and emotional consequences clearly shown.

Example:

Spoiler:

He [Uso] is looking for his parents all through the series. At one point he picks up a space helmet and it has his mother's severed head inside.

Most of the deaths are designed to be cruel deaths that shock you, and in fact they have a bigger impact on more mature children, not less. (A child who understands these concepts is more mature than one who doesn't, for example, yet the latter may not be phased by these things but the former will.)

Well, the Japanese would. And the Japanese did.

AKAIK, They were NOT shown on children's prime time but evening/late slots.

Whether or not children would watch them is one thing; they were never intended for children except for the first series. (ZZ is okay too, I guess)

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Poseidal

AKAIK, They were NOT shown on children's prime time but evening/late slots.

Whether or not children would watch them is one thing; they were never intended for children except for the first series. (ZZ is okay too, I guess)

Care to help me out and give me a source? I've been looking for any data concerning the timeslot given to Zeta Gundam back when it first aired in Japan, but with no luck.

[Poseidal]

Friday 17:00 for Victory Gundam http://www.d4.dion.ne.jp/~warapon/data02/media-0325.htm
Saturday 17:30 for Zeta (wiki)

(I wasn't sure exactly what time it was, turns out earlier than I remember)

These could be considered a children's slot I guess, but it depends when childrens slots are defined. Over here, children's television ends at 17:00 and they start showing cooking/gameshow before the primetime slots. NGE was aired only an hour later than these slots (in a more prime-time position), and I wouldn't consider that aimed at children either. http://www.allcinema.net/prog/show_c.php?num_c=89000

Victory has a similar level of violence to NGE, possibly a bit more.

[4Tran]

Thanks for the info.

17:00 is pretty much a perfect afterschool time slot for the Japanese market. G Gundam, Gundam Wing, and Gundam X were also all aired in the same slot, so it's quite obvious that they were all intended for the same audience as well.

[Poseidal]

Hmm, I think we have crossed wires.

I would say Gundam is aimed at Teen/Young Adult, not Children; mainly Middle-High School and College.

Children, I would think as twelve or under; I wouln't show many UC Gundam shows to them as it would either be too violent or too boring for them.

[4Tran]

We are thinking the same thing: kids 12 and under. UC Gundam is no more violent than a great many anime for children. Strangely enough, the older shows seem to be more likely to have more violence than the newer ones. Having characters dying may be depressing, but it can be found in shows as kid-friendly as Sailor Moon. There’s even non-North America mainstream kids shows that have lots of cruel deaths as well – Doctor Who comes immediately to mind.

UC shows may be too violent for children, but that’s mostly a case of cultural differences. Anime, and many, many other kinds of older shows used to be much slower-paced than we are used to now. They would only boring for children now because people’s tastes have changed. Speaking for myself, I would have loved watching UC Gundam shows as a child; in fact, I would have probably enjoyed it more then than I do now.

As a rule, anime TV shows are all designed for kids. The only exceptions are the ones that air in late-night time slots. Gundam TV shows are not among them.

[Poseidal]

Well, I would say as 'designed for kids' as the Star Trek TV series' (all of them); the two strike me as being about the same level as far as this goes (UC only).

And Dr. Who is far far scarier than Star Trek; only the British could make a pepperpot a horrifying monster.

I would have loved watching UC Gundam shows as a child; in fact, I would have probably enjoyed it more then than I do now.

I did; I was intruduced to Gundam from the 3rd Mobile Suit Gundam movie and Gundam 0083 when I was much younger (maybe about 10 or so years ago? possible more). I guess that's why it's had such an impact on me and I enjoy it so much.

[jonli]

V Gundam is quite f-ed up...I watched it a year ago with i Was 16 and god dam it...it really made me go "wtf is tomino thinking".

Spoiler:

the part where a bunch of bikini girls tried to distract Usso in his gundam. but they all ended up breaking their necks and backs....one even got vapourized by Usso's beam sabre because she unwillingly floated into it....THAT part was really disturbing...it scarred me for life. it was even worse that those exploding girls in the last episode of SEED...which scared me too.

I agree...i would never show my kids V gundam as well. Zeta on the other hand...i have no problem with it.

[flamingtroll]

Originally Posted by jonli

V Gundam is quite f-ed up...I watched it a year ago with i Was 16 and god dam it...it really made me go "wtf is tomino thinking".

Spoiler:

the part where a bunch of bikini girls tried to distract Usso in his gundam. but they all ended up breaking their necks and backs....one even got vapourized by Usso's beam sabre because she unwillingly floated into it....THAT part was really disturbing...it scarred me for life. it was even worse that those exploding girls in the last episode of SEED...which scared me too.

I agree...i would never show my kids V gundam as well. Zeta on the other hand...i have no problem with it.

That just how Tomino was pissed about making more gundam series and the anime industry in general, which has for a while at that period just been producing rather crappy stuff. That is his way of fingering how anime has been reducing to nothing more than a cesspool fanservice clip shows mindlessly produced to be consumed by otakus. I mean he created the Shrike team just so he can kill a bunch of pretty girls pointlessly.

I find it interesting how similar V gundam is to Evangelion, which Tomino himself also hates. Some of the general underlying themes are quite similar. I guess Anno and Tomino both share a common anger about the "stagnant" anime industry. Is also interesting to note the Aum Sarin gas attack happens only 2 years after the show, so V gundam in a sense does relate much to the state of society at that period. And then of course you have all those Fredian psychology sholved into it, espeically in the end with angel halo making everyone go kind of psychotic.

I too find V gundam "wierd". I don't find it depressing but rather an odd show. It clearly shows that Tomino didnt like it. I think it is one of the worst gundam series Tomino made.

I wonder if Fukuda is quietly agreeing with Tomino with the Astray girls near the end. He did say he watched V gundam before making SEED.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by flamingtroll

I wonder if Fukuda is quietly agreeing with Tomino with the Astray girls near the end. He did say he watched V gundam before making SEED.

Fukuda was involved in the production of V Gundam. Albeit a minor role, but still a staff member nevertheless.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Poseidal

Well, I would say as 'designed for kids' as the Star Trek TV series' (all of them); the two strike me as being about the same level as far as this goes (UC only).

I don't think that Star Trek was designed for children the way Doctor Who was. It seemed to ape a Western (cowboy) style approach to storytelling, and I believe that this was aimed at the same audience that watched "Gunsmoke", "Bonanza", "Wagon Train" and the like.

I merely brought up the example of Doctor Who to show that what may be considered mature content could easily be considered appropriate for children in other cultures, or at different times. While UC Gundam were children's shows in Japan, they could easily be deemed to be adult fare in North America. However, this does not change the fact that they were primarily made for children.

Originally Posted by jonli

I agree...i would never show my kids V gundam as well. Zeta on the other hand...i have no problem with it.

I think that Victory would be a little depressing for younger kids, but I don't think that the content is all that problematic.

Originally Posted by flamingtroll

I find it interesting how similar V gundam is to Evangelion, which Tomino himself also hates. Some of the general underlying themes are quite similar. I guess Anno and Tomino both share a common anger about the "stagnant" anime industry. Is also interesting to note the Aum Sarin gas attack happens only 2 years after the show, so V gundam in a sense does relate much to the state of society at that period. And then of course you have all those Fredian psychology sholved into it, espeically in the end with angel halo making everyone go kind of psychotic.

I think that you're putting a lot of completely unrelating things together. I can imagine Tomino making directorial choices to purposefully kill Victory, but I find that the show still carries more authentically than his earlier Gundam works did.

Originally Posted by flamingtroll

I too find V gundam "wierd". I don't find it depressing but rather an odd show. It clearly shows that Tomino didnt like it. I think it is one of the worst gundam series Tomino made.

I think that Victory's mixture of depressing and goofy themes doesn't appeal to everyone, but I find it to be the most entertaining Gundam TV show. I still think that Turn A Gundam is a superior show, but it still handily beats the earlier Tomino works. At the very least, the dialogue was significantly better.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Fukuda was involved in the production of V Gundam. Albeit a minor role, but still a staff member nevertheless.

I wish that if Fukuda were to copy anything from Victory, that he would have copied the inventiveness of the combat choreography. Victory is better at this than any other Gundam work.

[flamingtroll]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I think that you're putting a lot of completely unrelating things together. I can imagine Tomino making directorial choices to purposefully kill Victory, but I find that the show still carries more authentically than his earlier Gundam works did.

Perhaps you should read some of his interviews where he was asked about his view on the anime industry and how he related that to the general Japanese society as a whole. One interview I think it was done around the time of Turn A and IIRC someone had posted on this forum too. I think it was in Chinese and no one bothered to translate it too detailedly. However I think this is where Tomino said that he hated the anime depiction of bishojou. It wouldn't hurt to take a look at the Aum Sarin gas attack case to see the kind of spiritual crisis that some people faces around that time and then see some of the similarities in the depiction of Zanscare. Granted, there isnt a lot of back story to the whole Zanscare movement, but then again the backdrop is never the focus of the entire show. It is after all a show for kids, they would prefer seeing V2 blowing stuff up. It is precisely this odd bashing together of a kiddy adventure show and some serious yet rarely explored elements that I find V gundam a bit too odd to be enjoyable. I can't watch the show without feeling some sort of cognitive dissonance for the characters.

I wish that if Fukuda were to copy anything from Victory, that he would have copied the inventiveness of the combat choreography. Victory is better at this than any other Gundam work.

That I do agree.

[4Tran]

There is simply no connection between the gas attack and Zanscare. Nor is there real similarity between Evangelion and Victory. In addition, Victory doesn't exactly explore any really unusual themes – even Zeta does a little more in this regard. flamingtroll, you're reading way too much into it.

I never paid much heed to what Fukuda said in his interviews, and I'm not going to pay much heed to what Tomino said either. In any case, there's a six-year separation between said interview and the production of Victory. What Tomino said in the one may not have applied to the other. To me, he sounds like one of those bitter old men who tells teenagers (whipper-snappers!) to stay off his lawn. In a way, I blame him for many of the problems plaguing Gundam.

[flamingtroll]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

There is simply no connection between the gas attack and Zanscare. Nor is there real similarity between Evangelion and Victory. In addition, Victory doesn't exactly explore any really unusual themes – even Zeta does a little more in this regard. flamingtroll, you're reading way too much into it.

I never paid much heed to what Fukuda said in his interviews, and I'm not going to pay much heed to what Tomino said either. In any case, there's a six-year separation between said interview and the production of Victory. What Tomino said in the one may not have applied to the other. To me, he sounds like one of those bitter old men who tells teenagers (whipper-snappers!) to stay off his lawn. In a way, I blame him for many of the problems plaguing Gundam.

LOL I am not saying there any direct connection to the gas attack and Zanscare. I am saying the portaryal of Zansacre and its people reflect the mind of some of the people in Japan at that time. And the Aum Sarin gas attack is the exterme form of that mentality. A funny story though is that the attack just happened when Eva was airing, and I think Anno had to slightly change part of the story to avoid too much similarity.

Evangelion and Victory does have similarity, espeically when Evangelion is obviously influenced by Ideon, another of Tomino's work, as well as quite a few old super robot show. The idea of Newtype, where mankind evolved into a higher state of mutual understanding, is echoed by Evangelion's story of human instrumentality-Anno's answer to this idea that has had a great effect on otaku culture(Newtype megazine did get his name from that term), who Anno himself is part of. The concept itself is quite similar to the Zanscare's Angel Halo. The dominate psychological theme of returning to the infant state, or in the case of Evangelion, returning to the womb is also evident in both series.

They also have similarity in reflecting some of the social psyche present at that time in Japan. The general depression that occurs at that time, around when the Japan has its economic bubble burst.

I find the way you base your opinions on rather interesting. You don't pay attention what the he said and yet you immediately conjure up an image about him as an old man to tell teenagers to stay off his lawn when in fact that isnt even the case. It is in the same said interview that he thinks Gundam should be left the the new generation. He is merely stating his view as a hindsight, which I think is the basis of his depression when he made V Gundam.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by flamingtroll

LOL I am not saying there any direct connection to the gas attack and Zanscare. I am saying the portaryal of Zansacre and its people reflect the mind of some of the people in Japan at that time. And the Aum Sarin gas attack is the exterme form of that mentality. A funny story though is that the attack just happened when Eva was airing, and I think Anno had to change part of the story to avoid

You’re going to have to show how there’s any connection between the culture of Zanscare and early ‘90s Japan. The last I heard, there was neither any major clamouring for guillotines, or worship of mother-healer figures in recent Japanese history. Victory is not exactly a very complex or deep story. I think that it’s pointless to try to establish tenuous connections like this when they don’t really fit very well.

Originally Posted by flamingtroll

Evangelion and Victory does have similarity, espeically when Evangelion is obviously influenced by Ideon, another of Tomino's work, as well as quite a few old super robot show. The idea of Newtype, where mankind evolved into a higher state of mutual understanding, is echoed by Evangelion's story of human instrumentality-Anno's answer to this idea that has had a great effect on otaku culture(Newtype megazine did get his name from that term), who Anno himself is part of. The concept itself is quite similar to the Zanscare's Angel Halo. The dominate psychological theme of returning to the infant state, or in the case of Evangelion, returning to the womb is also evident in both series.

Evangelion may be influenced by older super robot shows, but that hardly means that there’s any significant similarity between it and Victory. By the way, returning to an infant state is far from being a dominant theme in Victory to begin with.

Originally Posted by flamingtroll

They also have similarity in reflecting some of the social psyche present at that time in Japan. The general depression that occurs at that time, around when the Japan has its economic bubble burst.

I have a really hard time buying this.

Originally Posted by flamingtroll

I find the way you base your opinions on rather interesting. You don't pay attention what the he said and yet you immediately conjure up an image about him as an old man to tell teenagers to stay off his lawn when in fact that isnt even the case. It is in the same said interview that he thinks Gundam should be left the the new generation. He is merely stating his view as a hindsight, which I think is the basis of his depression when he made V Gundam.

Perhaps I phrased that poorly. I don’t buy what he says, but from what I hear, it sounds like he’s embittered. I’m not sure there’s any need to look for possible explanations for Tomino’s depression beyond the fact that he was forced to make another Gundam show when he didn’t really want to.

[flamingtroll]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You’re going to have to show how there’s any connection between the culture of Zanscare and early ‘90s Japan. The last I heard, there was neither any major clamouring for guillotines, or worship of mother-healer figures in recent Japanese history. Victory is not exactly a very complex or deep story. I think that it’s pointless to try to establish tenuous connections like this when they don’t really fit very well.

A Fiction does not reflect reality so superfacialy.It IS not a deep and complex story, beucase it is not even the point of the story to explore those topics. There are merely just backdrops that can simply be ignored by the majority of watcher which are kids. It is merely Tomino's mentality that they found their way into the show. Here is a nice short article about Aum that is readily avaiable on google

here

And a more scholary one

Here. Particularly chapter 1

There will no doubt be infinitely more information of it on the web.

Evangelion may be influenced by older super robot shows, but that hardly means that there’s any significant similarity between it and Victory. By the way, returning to an infant state is far from being a dominant theme in Victory to begin with.

Depends on what you mean by "significant " similarities. My point is just that the share quite a few common theme as a result of the psyche of the people at that time. I am not saying V gundam is Eva or vice versa.

I have a really hard time buying this.

Why? Conterexamples?

Perhaps I phrased that poorly. I don’t buy what he says, but from what I hear, it sounds like he’s embittered. I’m not sure there’s any need to look for possible explanations for Tomino’s depression beyond the fact that he was forced to make another Gundam show when he didn’t really want to.

"Buy" You dont' even konw what he said excatly. You can't believe or disbelieve something that you dont' even know now can't you.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by flamingtroll

A Fiction does not reflect reality so superfacialy.It IS not a deep and complex story, beucase it is not even the point of the story to explore those topics. There are merely just backdrops that can simply be ignored by the majority of watcher which are kids. It is merely Tomino's mentality that they found their way into the show. Here is a nice short article about Aum that is readily avaiable on google

If, as you say, there's no significant connection between Zanscare and early '90s Japan, then what's the point of putting the two together?

Originally Posted by flamingtroll

Depends on what you mean by "significant " similarities. My point is just that the share quite a few common theme as a result of the psyche of the people at that time. I am not saying V gundam is Eva or vice versa.

What common themes?

Originally Posted by flamingtroll

Why? Conterexamples?

If someone tries to claim that there's a correlation between event A and event B, then the onus is upon him to provide some evidence to support it. If this evidence is lacking, then it's only natural to doubt that such a correlation exists.

Originally Posted by flamingtroll

"Buy" You dont' even konw what he said excatly. You can't believe or disbelieve something that you dont' even know now can't you.

I may not have tried to delve too deeply into looking for Tomino's interviews, but I have read excerpts of them when they pop up on the intraweb. From those, he sounds rather petulant. In the newer ones, he seems to be rather more resigned to the fate of Gundam. However, I prefer to judge a man by his work; and in this regard, I find Tomino rather lacking.

[flamingtroll]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

If, as you say, there's no significant connection between Zanscare and early '90s Japan, then what's the point of putting the two together?

Now you are putting words in my mouth? How does

Originally Posted by flamingtroll

A Fiction does not reflect reality so superfacialy.It IS not a deep and complex story, beucase it is not even the point of the story to explore those topics. There are merely just backdrops that can simply be ignored by the majority of watcher which are kids. It is merely Tomino's mentality that they found their way into the show. Here is a nice short article about Aum that is readily avaiable on google

mean

Originally Posted by 4Tran

If, as you say, there's no significant connection between Zanscare and early '90s Japan

There is a connection, but a topic that is not detailedly delved into in the series. The assertion is that Zanscare reflect the mentality of some people in Japan in the ealry 90s. And as evidence I supply the article. Unless of course you didnt even bother reading it.

The kind of idea I am getting at here is something like how Lord of The Rings relfected the world during World War II, this is commonly recognized by many literary scholars. There is however no giant evil spirit living beside a volcano anywhere near germany. Nor it is within the story of LOTR alone talks about the fall of Sauron and all that. It is done mostly in the views of Frodo and some of the characters around them.

What common themes?

Didn't I already cite them in previous post. The general despondence of people. The inner loneliness of some of the Zanscare characters. Their need for a eternal maternal figure for spiritual fulfillment. The whole Zanscare movement is based around the Queen. To establish an order of maternal love. The urged for a sort of mental merging through the Angel Halo. I would say that is a pretty big part of the backdrop of the story that is quite similar the Evangelion.

If someone tries to claim that there's a correlation between event A and event B, then the onus is upon him to provide some evidence to support it. If this evidence is lacking, then it's only natural to doubt that such a correlation exists.

You just made claim that you think my assertion is fault. You must supply evidence for your doubt before I can provide specific evidence that will address your doubts. Otherwise you can jsut say "I wont' buy that" no matter how I try to prove it. I am not that stupid to fall for a trap like that in debating. We could go over the philosophy of logical reasoning like what people did with you on the mahq forum though :P

I may not have tried to delve too deeply into looking for Tomino's interviews, but I have read excerpts of them when they pop up on the intraweb. From those, he sounds rather petulant. In the newer ones, he seems to be rather more resigned to the fate of Gundam. However, I prefer to judge a man by his work; and in this regard, I find Tomino rather lacking.

So you are agreeing that your first assertion is rather overgeneralized.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by flamingtroll

Now you are putting words in my mouth? There is a connection, but a topic that is not detailedly delved into in the series. The assertion is that Zanscare reflect the mentality of some people in Japan in the ealry 90s, as evidented I supply by the article. Unless of course you didnt even bother reading it and make me cite quotes from it.

If the topic is not given much attention, then how can the story be said to have a significant connection to it?

Originally Posted by flamingtroll

Didn't I already cite them in previous post. The general despondence of people. The inner loneliness of some of the Zanscare characters. Their need for a eternal maternal figure for spiritual fulfillment. The whole Zanscare movement is based around the Queen. To establish an order of maternal love. The urged for a sort of mental merging through the Angel Halo. I would say that is a pretty big part of the backdrop of the story that is quite similar the Evangelion.

I think that these themes are either extremely generalized or aren’t particularly similar to Evangelion at all.

Originally Posted by flamingtroll

You just made claim that you think my assertion is fault. You must supply evidence for your doubt before I can provide specific evidence that will address your doubts. Otherwise you can jsut say "I wont' buy that" no matter how I try to prove it. I am not that stupid to fall for a trap like that in debating. We could go over the philosophy of logical reasoning like what people did with you on the mahq forum though :P

Nonsense. You originally made the claim that “They also have similarity in reflecting some of the social psyche present at that time in Japan” without offering any further evidence to show how these correlate to each other.

Originally Posted by flamingtroll

So you are agreeing that your first assertion is rather overgeneralized.

What part of my assertion do you see as overgeneralized?