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[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

My posts should answer that question.

I am glad you do. However, I was wondering if the mice actually mimicked the state of what Japan is. The state which I would like to put it out as is that the Japanese youngsters are fearful of responsibility; given the massive social pressure to "make it right as it is" make them skive from it.

My suspicions are that of the Japanese's lack of interaction and confrontation with the outside world since young, having grown up in bubble-wrapped environments, considering the fact that in China, Taiwan and Singapore, the same things are happening, but on a slower and much smaller scale. It is the fear of inability to meet expectations, combined with the lack of visible physical rewards, IMO, that made them herbivorous, especially that of men.

South Korea would have gone down the same route faster if not for the threat of the North "rumbling down with brainwashing equipment" and some sort of social elitism keeping them alive. However, if this article is to be believed, it seems that sooner or later, ROK might suffer the same fate too.

And I actually think so. I had Korean university classmates two years back, some of which are a couple of years younger and skipped out on National Service because it seems "too tough", according to their words. Only one or two out of that group finished their conscription, with the rest of 4-5 planning to apply for foreign citizenship. Like other whiny boys in my class, they are a soft bunch that a MILF could easily enslave them with loud voices and some aggression.

Oh yes, and a whip too.

[ArchmageXin]

What I find amusing is many countries are suffering from declining population now days after they become industrialized. Japan isn't alone. Nor is U.S, Russia, China etc.

To claim a entire generation has become "herbivores" is kind of silly. Industrialization itself decrease the need to many births prior generations have. In the middle ages or Japan's Sengoku era or China's warring state era, you would need 10+ kids because most of them would die to disease or become a dyiamo/warlord/wang/prince's cannon folder.

In Industrial (post World War II) era, as industrialization increase more and more, there are less opportunities to raise a huge litter of family unless you are extremely wealthy. Putting a child through birth---> College is a huge investment. Most average families would afford 1-2 max.

And giving even accelerated technological improvements, the number of jobs/economic opportunity would further decline. Facing such a pessimistic environment (especially for Japan), isn't it surprising the population is in a decline?

Maybe Japan is actually, in a brutal way, reducing its population to what is necessary to operate its economy, and everyone else will eventually follow suit.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

What I find amusing is many countries are suffering from declining population now days after they become industrialized. Japan isn't alone. Nor is U.S, Russia, China etc.

Calling either Russia or China as industrialized is an affront to industrialized nations.

[Ridwan]

They're pretty much Victorian level, no ?

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Ridwan

They're pretty much Victorian level, no ?

They're both industrializing countries.

[Ridwan]

That's the joke.

[ArchmageXin]

The rest of the world would have to hand over all its remaining manufacturing needs in order for China to reach full industrialization at this point.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

The rest of the world would have to hand over all its remaining manufacturing needs in order for China to reach full industrialization at this point.

You mean the Great Middle Nation can't industrialize by itself?

[Ridwan]

Oh come on, guys...

[Zakoo]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

...

Paralogism sir. And one inaccurate fact : it doesn't cost thousands of dollars to put a child in college in all countries.

In my opinion, I find it quite paradoxical that in order to have a good economy you need a bad demography. Let alone the natural phenomenon that generation won't simply renew themselves in case of Japan, as said before they could have done it the german way: attract all the youth around you.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

You mean the Great Middle Nation can't industrialize by itself?

It is a bit harder for a Real Country to do than a pint sized Island in the middle of no where.~

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by Zakoo

Paralogism sir. And one inaccurate fact : it doesn't cost thousands of dollars to put a child in college in all countries.

In my opinion, I find it quite paradoxical that in order to have a good economy you need a bad demography. Let alone the natural phenomenon that generation won't simply renew themselves in case of Japan, as said before they could have done it the german way: attract all the youth around you.

Bold: Actually, I meant Cradle ---> College. It might not cost thousands of dollars, but to a regular household, it would be a materially significant number. Furthermore, given the increase of globalization, that means a competitive college, like Todai/Fudan/Havard, and not just a regular community college somewhere.

Underlined: This beg-thy-neighbor method wouldn't work forever. I was reading a Wall Street study a year ago on Latinos coming to the U.S. The first generation are "fertile" and produce larger families, but second-third generation, with better access to education and birth control, produced no more children than their white counterparts. So even if Japan turned around and said "we will let everyone in", it might lead to an initial boom, but it will quickly peak off.

Plus, isn't Japan busy kicking out Brazilians anyway? I recall reading NY Times Japan was paying Brazilians to leave Japan for good.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Zakoo

Paralogism sir. And one inaccurate fact : it doesn't cost thousands of dollars to put a child in college in all countries.

So where is it cheap? Even if you discount what's shouldered by the state, there is the cost of time. Instead of working to earn a living, the child's just one more mouth to feed. Plus whatever costs aren't paid by the government, often including housing that wouldn't be needed if not for college. (Even if they work part-time, well, it's just part-time work.)

It is, as Xin said, an investment. Spending now in the hope of earning more later.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

So where is it cheap? Even if you discount what's shouldered by the state, there is the cost of time. Instead of working to earn a living, the child's just one more mouth to feed. Plus whatever costs aren't paid by the government, often including housing that wouldn't be needed if not for college. (Even if they work part-time, well, it's just part-time work.)

It is, as Xin said, an investment. Spending now in the hope of earning more later.

I think this might be a key point we are missing. From what I understand, traditional asian families consider it is a social contract. Parents take care of kids, kids take care of parents when parents get older.

But in a ever increasing competitive/difficult economy, it is much more difficult for children to take care their parents and their own children. Not only it is a huge strain to keep a kid until she reach until economic independence, there is no guarantee of any return. (See: Grandma who commit suicide in Greece to prevent kids from being overburdened)

Plus, western culture (which is portrayed as the norm for all societies) now days also seem to encourage complete independence/provide no return to parents. (see: Homer Simpson's parents dumped in retirement home)

With the social contract broke down, what is the point to have large families?

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

It is a bit harder for a Real Country to do than a pint sized Island in the middle of no where.~

An empire brutally occupying nations cannot be a real country anyway. Although, that only shows that those that industrialized are true countries in the first place.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

An empire brutally occupying nations cannot be a real country anyway. Although, that only shows that those that industrialized are true countries in the first place.

I fully agree with that.

Edit: Except some of us are more successful in keeping what we conquer. Or let other countries do the conquering for us.

Edit 1.5: We are not an Empire anyway.

Edit 2: Did I just agree with Sumeragi again?

[Bri]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

With the social contract broke down, what is the point to have large families?

The personal fulfillment of raising a family

There has been quite a bit of research on that topic. Governments are able to help in this case. Policies like conditional income transfers, priority housing, childcare provisions, education subsidies etc. have all been found to improve birthrates by having society help shoulder the burden. Essentially creating a new form of social contract.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by Bri

The personal fulfillment of raising a family

There has been quite a bit of research on that topic. Governments are able to help in this case. Policies like conditional income transfers, priority housing, childcare provisions, education subsidies etc. have all been found to improve birthrates by having society help shoulder the burden. Essentially creating a new form of social contract.

I wish western media actually show this. Most of time, elderly parents are usually just cameo roles during Christmas or to show how senile parents are. Living with your parents is a major taboo/sign of failure. Kids are ungrateful teenage brats (or terrorist) who drove parents mad while going around partying and sexing. Then put parents into debt while party away in college, then come back and live in parent basement.

Even Asian TV shows are like that now days.

[ganbaru]

France summons U.S. ambassador over spying report
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/to...31021?irpc=932

U.S. high court asks Obama administration's view on bank secrecy
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/to...31021?irpc=932

Female suicide bomber attacks Russian bus, kills six
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/to...31021?irpc=932

[Ridwan]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

Edit 1.5: We are not an Empire anyway.

You guys should've stayed so. Then again, Yuan was shit and he should've died earlier. Kang Youwei could've saved the monarchy and also China from warlordism.