Byakugan, Sharingan & Rinnengan

[astayanax]

Originally Posted by Rurik

If you read the Manga you will find that

Spoiler:

Obito was a so-so Ninja, after gaining the Sharingan he abstained a very noticeable improvement.

Or even better, look at how the fight between Sasuke and 1 tailed Naruto completely turned around when Sasuke obtained the 3 dotted Sharingan. It wasn't like Sasuke suddenly turned invincible; but that the eye was giving him all the information he needed at a speed as which he could react.

The best comparison for Sharingan is that of a computer where the more dots it has; the faster and more accurate it becomes. Byakugan at the other hand is more of say a knife, gun or what not. Something that is used; but offers no insight or advice to the user.

[s-class uchiha]

Originally Posted by astayanax

Or even better, look at how the fight between Sasuke and 1 tailed Naruto completely turned around when Sasuke obtained the 3 dotted Sharingan. It wasn't like Sasuke suddenly turned invincible; but that the eye was giving him all the information he needed at a speed as which he could react.

The best comparison for Sharingan is that of a computer where the more dots it has; the faster and more accurate it becomes. Byakugan at the other hand is more of say a knife, gun or what not. Something that is used; but offers no insight or advice to the user.

Good analogy, although, I think that Byakugan does give insight into Chakara flow, type, capacity, holes etc.

The real interesting thing is that the hyuuga used the byakugan to develop a specific fighting style from it ie the Jyuuken. I think that would be awesome if they just switched all their taijutsu to jyuuken taijutsu, but they seemed to have forsaken (not in being able to, but not using it in a fight... kinda like you know calculus but don't use it in real life) traditional genjutsu and ninjutsu.

This is one thing the Uchiha Clan was smart in - they capatilized in all fighting areas and let the sharingan enhance their abilities and not go into some specific way of fighting. Obviously they have a natural affinity towards katon and the special MS abilities of the Sharingan, but for the most part sharingan users are beefed up regular people.

I wonder what about the byakugan makes the Hyuuga go specifically into a radically different style of fighting?

Instead of it complimenting an established repetoire, like the Uchiha, they went into a unique style like Nara and Akmichi clans. Makes sense, considering just about everyone else in Konoha did that

I would think that Orochimaru would super dope w/ some hyuuga eyes...

[samurai_yotashi]

Originally Posted by smee

So wut would u rather have and why? Byukugan or Sharingan? I would rather have byukugan cuz u get a 360 degree view and it looks pretty darn cool. sharingan looks cool too but i think byukugan is more usefull.

dude! totaly and deffinatly the Sharingun. hands down! dude, it would be soooooooo cool to be able to cope a bunch of jutsu like that!

[Medalist]

Sasuke vs. Naruto Tail 1 - that was a fight Naruto had to lose before it started.

[Suna no tate]

I've always disagreed that copying a skill instantly makes you a master of the skill. Copying a skill means copying the hand seals and having the skill level to pull it off. Does that makes the user the master of the skill? I think not. In fact, copying a propietary skill and trying to immediately use it in battle againt the proprietor would probably be a bad thing simply because while you may know the mechanics of the skill (hand seals and chakra amount and etc), there's more to using a skill efficiently than just that. A good example would be during the training before Sasuke's defection and naruto's team was training with kakashi. He told them to get the bells of him or something. Anyway, in that training at one point, naruto tries to use the kage bunshin against kakashi. kakashi after it was all said and done told naruto this "think before you use a jutsu or it will be used against you". My point is if you copy a jutsu, you may still be inexperienced with it. Lets the say the jutsu you copied was a special roundhouse kick and you try it in battle and use it expertly in perfect form, except because you were inexperienced with it, you used it in a situation where you were open to being hit with a sweep kick and then you lose the fight. That I think can be applied to all copied ninjutsu. But it does seem like simpler jutsus are simpler to use. Only a dummy would screw up using a water clone in the wrong situation. But someone might copy and use chidori in the wrong situation or copy it and use it too many times unaware of the limitations, or copy it and fail to see its weakness. You can copy a jutsu and if you're inexperienced with it, while your form of it is expert and the mechanics perfect, may use it in a compromising way. Thats really the whole point.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

I've always disagreed that copying a skill instantly makes you a master of the skill. Copying a skill means copying the hand seals and having the skill level to pull it off. Does that makes the user the master of the skill? I think not. In fact, copying a propietary skill and trying to immediately use it in battle againt the proprietor would probably be a bad thing simply because while you may know the mechanics of the skill (hand seals and chakra amount and etc), there's more to using a skill efficiently than just that. A good example would be during the training before Sasuke's defection and naruto's team was training with kakashi. He told them to get the bells of him or something. Anyway, in that training at one point, naruto tries to use the kage bunshin against kakashi. kakashi after it was all said and done told naruto this "think before you use a jutsu or it will be used against you". My point is if you copy a jutsu, you may still be inexperienced with it. Lets the say the jutsu you copied was a special roundhouse kick and you try it in battle and use it expertly in perfect form, except because you were inexperienced with it, you used it in a situation where you were open to being hit with a sweep kick and then you lose the fight. That I think can be applied to all copied ninjutsu. But it does seem like simpler jutsus are simpler to use. Only a dummy would screw up using a water clone in the wrong situation. But someone might copy and use chidori in the wrong situation or copy it and use it too many times unaware of the limitations, or copy it and fail to see its weakness. You can copy a jutsu and if you're inexperienced with it, while your form of it is expert and the mechanics perfect, may use it in a compromising way. Thats really the whole point.

And your point is right, but not on the mark, Yes someone that copy a Jutsu maybe wont know the Jutsu as well as the one who has 100 Years using it, but as shown more than once, a Copied Jutsu by the Sharingan was used even better than the person that had more experience Using the Jutsu.

Your examples you put as the Roundhouse Kick and Chidory are quite simple:

For a Round House Kick the one who is going to Copy the kick, will still have the Sharingan, so even after throwing the kick, he will have the Sharingan to counter a sweep kick. In Fontal combat, the Sharingan has no flaws.

For the Chidory, The Ninjas are very well aware of how much chakra they have left compared to the Jutsu they can do, not to mention the limitations of Chidory are reciprocal to the Persons Chakra capacity.

But let look it at this perspective, The persons that has sharingan are genius, Sasuke copied Primary Lotus, and in the Prelim Sasuke practically pull it of, but at the end he used his genius and created his own style of Combo, in other words he copied a Jutsu and adjusted himself in order to do a variation of the Jutsu he copied and probrably could not do wiht his actual physycal conditions.

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by Rurik

And your point is right, but not on the mark, Yes someone that copy a Jutsu maybe wont know the Jutsu as well as the one who has 100 Years using it, but as shown more than once, a Copied Jutsu by the Sharingan was used even better than the person that had more experience Using the Jutsu.

Your examples you put as the Roundhouse Kick and Chidory are quite simple:

For a Round House Kick the one who is going to Copy the kick, will still have the Sharingan, so even after throwing the kick, he will have the Sharingan to counter a sweep kick. In Fontal combat, the Sharingan has no flaws.

For the Chidory, The Ninjas are very well aware of how much chakra they have left compared to the Jutsu they can do, not to mention the limitations of Chidory are reciprocal to the Persons Chakra capacity.

But let look it at this perspective, The persons that has sharingan are genius, Sasuke copied Primary Lotus, and in the Prelim Sasuke practically pull it of, but at the end he used his genius and created his own style of Combo, in other words he copied a Jutsu and adjusted himself in order to do a variation of the Jutsu he copied and probrably could not do wiht his actual physycal conditions.

I agree with you with many aspects, but just because someone has Sharingan does not make them automatically a genius. I think the people we saw with Sharingan were already for the most part considered a genius. At the same token lets say you're able to copy a technique, but if the person is so far ahead of you in the skill then you'll still prob. lose. It's been shown that if a sharingan user is fighting at equal strength that they just cancels each other out. Now what you discribed was really a combination of the Sharingan and the Ninja's in this case Sasuke's ability to to compensate for his or her weakness. In other words Sasuke didn't win just by using Sharingan, but had to be able to change or adjust, which is the product of his own ability not the Sharingan. Which is a variation of what Kakashi said that a ninja cannot win with the Sharingan alone. They Byakugan though can see 360 degrees and also see things in extreme details. After looking back it does seem to imply that the Byakugan can see past certain illusions, such as shadow clones, since normal shadow clones does not have chakra, which is why Neji was able to determine that quickly that Naruto's clones weren't just illusions, which Neji stated. Of course those were living things and it's unkown if that would work on other illususions. Personally I don't think one is better then the other, but purely depends on the the user and how he or she is able to adjust to various obstacles.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

I agree with you with many aspects, but just because someone has Sharingan does not make them automatically a genius. I think the people we saw with Sharingan were already for the most part considered a genius. At the same token lets say you're able to copy a technique, but if the person is so far ahead of you in the skill then you'll still prob. lose. It's been shown that if a sharingan user is fighting at equal strength that they just cancels each other out. Now what you discribed was really a combination of the Sharingan and the Ninja's in this case Sasuke's ability to to compensate for his or her weakness. In other words Sasuke didn't win just by using Sharingan, but had to be able to change or adjust, which is the product of his own ability not the Sharingan. Which is a variation of what Kakashi said that a ninja cannot win with the Sharingan alone. They Byakugan though can see 360 degrees and also see things in extreme details. After looking back it does seem to imply that the Byakugan can see past certain illusions, such as shadow clones, since normal shadow clones does not have chakra, which is why Neji was able to determine that quickly that Naruto's clones weren't just illusions, which Neji stated. Of course those were living things and it's unkown if that would work on other illususions. Personally I don't think one is better then the other, but purely depends on the the user and how he or she is able to adjust to various obstacles.

Two Things here, You got my Quote Wrong, When I said “The persons that has sharingan are genius”, I was not saying that Sharingan makes you a genius (well, Rock Lee stated different), is rather, the ones that wields the Sharingan are genius Ninjas, The Uchiha was a clan of Geniuses and Kakashi is a genius. In other words, the person that use Sharingan are not your drop out type of Shiniboby.

So, When I was talking about Sasuke, I was explaining why Someone with the Sharingan will not find himself in the predicament of “I don’t have experience with the Jutsu I copied and hence I would have trouble is I used against somebody that knows how to use it”, because Just like Sasuke, Itachi and Kakashi (and practically all the Uchihas) are genius, so they will copy a Jutsu and they will know how to use it or think of a way to use it as good as the person that Jutsu was copied from.

And last of all, Neeji could tell with the Byakugan that Naruto made Kage Bushin, because he saw all the bodies as equal, but His Byakugan could not tell who was the Real one from the Clones.

[MobiuS]

Originally Posted by Rurik

And last of all, Neeji could tell with the Byakugan that Naruto made Kage Bushin, because he saw all the bodies as equal, but His Byakugan could not tell who was the Real one from the Clones.

Sharingan wont tell you the real one either.

IMO Byakugan > Sharingan for most combat situations. MS is a different story however.

[Dauthi]

Originally Posted by astayanax

Sharingan starts out better than Byakugan. Seriously, what are you going to do with the ability to see 360 degrees with say 100 kunais flying at you in all directions in a few seconds of having the eye? That is right, you will die. However, a person who just gained Sharingan and is in that same situation WILL dodge EVERY ONE of those kunais because he will be given precise information on the actions needed to dodge it.

Training now with JYUUKEN (and not Byakugan) would more likely give the Byakugan user some advantages IF he was talented to begin with and this is where the difference lies. To be skillful with Byakugan, you have to be talented to begin with. To be skillful with Sharingan, you simply need the eyes.



If we want to use chess, think of Sharingan as a super computer that is analysing things on the fly every nano second, calculating every action of virtually every possibility of every scenario. Where Sharingan fails as seen in say the first Sasuke vs Lee or Sasuke confrontation vs 1 tailed Naruto before he got his 3 dotted Sharingan is the amount of time needed by the body to react to the information given to it. However, this has nothing to do with the eye itself as it gave the user perfect information.

Everytime sharingan copied a jutsu that we then saw being used; it was used perfectly in the perfect scenario like a true master. However as with Sasuke getting tired using Lee speed for an example, that has nothing to do with him using the jutsu ineffeciently but simply not having the stamina to continue using it which is another thing all together. It can be argued that in the 5 secs Sasuke had his speed up, he was using it better than Rock Lee.

Actually im inclined to believe that the Byakugen can be used from a very young age, and possibly does not need to be developed like Sharingan. Even non-genious ninjas like hinata was using it very early. So taking this into account, a byakugen user will on average have jutsu already based on byakugen while a sharingan user may not even have it yet, giving the advantage to byakugen. Even an average (non-genious jyuuken user) will be good wielding the strongest hand to hand technique (and we have seen hinata and hinata's sister doing this at a VERY young age).

On top of that, seeing around and through things would be quite a bit useful, even compared to a recently developed sharingan (which could dodge, but only to a low extent). Dodging would be the sharingan user's only advantage, having not had battles with it yet.

As for skill levels, i could have sworn there are genious' in both sharingan clans and byakugen. For instance, some sharingan users may not ever get a 3 dotted sharingan, and some byakugen users may not see past say 200 degrees.

Spoiler:

On top of that, it is pretty much proven you have to train to become skillful with the sharingan as well, as kakashi has just learned a new technique through the timeskip by training. At the same time, byakugen users must train jyuuken to obtain these new techniques. Again, both seem to take an amount of skill/time to train.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Dauthi

As for skill levels, i could have sworn there are genious' in both sharingan clans and byakugen. For instance, some sharingan users may not ever get a 3 dotted sharingan, and some byakugen users may not see past say 200 degrees.

Nope, The Uchiha Clan was a Clan Of Geniuses, the Hyuga Clan is not known to be like that, however they do have geniuses, (Neeji is an example). and genius are not abaout the power of the Bloddline, is about how good this person could be Naturallly.

And Look at the difference

Spoiler:

Hinata having Years using the Byakugan and still was a drop out Shinoby, Obito passed from been a so-so Ninja, and in the moment she gained the Sharingan his level Changed considerable

Spoiler:

On top of that, it is pretty much proven you have to train to become skillful with the sharingan as well, as kakashi has just learned a new technique through the timeskip by training. At the same time, byakugen users must train jyuuken to obtain these new techniques. Again, both seem to take an amount of skill/time to train.

Spoiler:

You have train to become Skillful with the Sharingan, but you don’t have to train to use it, Sasuke demonstrated that when he awoke the Sharingan, and troughs the Chunin Test, Also What Jutsu Kakshi train for? Are you talking about the MS? Because we Don’t know still how Kakashi gain the MS.

[MobiuS]

Sharingan is essentially a massive plothole making device. The eye can do everything from genjutsu to analysis to creating black fire to even making a peanut butter sandwich on demand.

Once you get the eye, you gain so much info off it you cannot help but be a great ninja.

Kakashi failed with Chidori on one target. He got 1 sharingan and was immediately able to run through multiple targets ... thanks to overanalysis.

Obito is the classic example. Sasuke as well, in two different scenarios.

Haku was in charge of the battle till Sasuke got the eyes that allowed him to see Haku refracting at high speed. Sasuke's eyes upgraded, allowing him to take on a jink (well, dodge quite a lot, not really heavy on the damage side).

We saw when Kakashi lost his sharingan on the bridge with Haku and Zabuza that he was essentially a chump, taking beatings left right and centre, and had to summon to be able to win the battle.

Sharingan is THE powerup. It can make Konohomaru > 3rd Hokage.

Byakugan is more of a skilltool. Yet when harnessed properly ... it does what the Sharingan does and more. Ill explain in more detail if someone doesnt understand what I mean.

My main point: Sharingan = hax. Byakugan = 1337skillz

[Zu Ra]

I think MS should not be taken into consideration . Only Itachi uses MS and its variant is used by Kakashi .

MS is not an integral part of Sharingam its more like a taboo for sharingam bloodline . IF ( big if ) Uchicha clan was still exsisitant we wouldnt be taking MS into consideration . Beacause Uchicha clan just has two shinobis only we take MS into consideration . If this is purely Sharingam vs Byakugan . Byakugan has the upper hand .

Also I am biased against Sharingam coz Hard Gei Sauckay uses it , If we just take Itachi as an Epitome for Sharingam , Sharingam wins hand down .

[DAmer]

Uchicha is supposed to be the strongest clan in the naruto world because of the sharingan. Only title Byakugan has vs sharingan is that it has better insight and that its from one of the most noble clan in konoha.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by MobiuS

Sharingan is essentially a massive plothole making device. The eye can do everything from genjutsu to analysis to creating black fire to even making a peanut butter sandwich on demand.

Once you get the eye, you gain so much info off it you cannot help but be a great ninja.

Kakashi failed with Chidori on one target. He got 1 sharingan and was immediately able to run through multiple targets ... thanks to overanalysis.

Obito is the classic example. Sasuke as well, in two different scenarios.

Haku was in charge of the battle till Sasuke got the eyes that allowed him to see Haku refracting at high speed. Sasuke's eyes upgraded, allowing him to take on a jink (well, dodge quite a lot, not really heavy on the damage side).

We saw when Kakashi lost his sharingan on the bridge with Haku and Zabuza that he was essentially a chump, taking beatings left right and centre, and had to summon to be able to win the battle.

Sharingan is THE powerup. It can make Konohomaru > 3rd Hokage.

Byakugan is more of a skilltool. Yet when harnessed properly ... it does what the Sharingan does and more. Ill explain in more detail if someone doesnt understand what I mean.

My main point: Sharingan = hax. Byakugan = 1337skillz

Just wanted to say one of the best post I have seen today…nice one Mobius. A cookie for you.

[Kogepan]

Originally Posted by MobiuS

My main point: Sharingan = hax. Byakugan = 1337skillz

agreed

[inferno_grl]

i'm srry... but isn't the sharingan i runnoff or weaker version of byakuga. but none the less i'll still rather have sharingan. reds my thing. it seems more nessisary in a fight to. but then again...

[MobiuS]

Originally Posted by inferno_grl

i'm srry... but isn't the sharingan i runnoff or weaker version of byakuga. but none the less i'll still rather have sharingan. reds my thing. it seems more nessisary in a fight to. but then again...

Sharingan is a result of Byakugan doing something Im not too sure of. Either way, Byakugan was the root, Sharingan followed. However Im not quite sure where I picked this up but I know I did see it somewhere before.

Ild say Sharingan was more "user friendly". Think of Sharingan as Windows XP and Byakugan as MS DOS.

[DAmer]

Originally Posted by inferno_grl

i'm srry... but isn't the sharingan i runnoff or weaker version of byakuga. but none the less i'll still rather have sharingan. reds my thing. it seems more nessisary in a fight to. but then again...

Sharingan is more like the evolved version of byakugan. Think of one fight in the whole series where the byakugan would have won but not the sharingan. I know you cant... , but im sure you can think of plenty of instances where byakugan loses but sharingan wins. The whole power of hyugaa clan is only half concentrated on byakugan and half on the whole releasing chakra through chakra holes bit. So if you talk about hyugaa vs Uchiha then maybe hyugaa has the better edge. But if your talking about sharingan vs byakugan then there is no doubt about it, sharingan is way better.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by MobiuS

Sharingan is THE powerup. It can make Konohomaru > 3rd Hokage.


My main point: Sharingan = hax. Byakugan = 1337skillz

I'm not sure about that. What you're saying implies that Sharingan takes less skill to use/master than Byakugan . Byakugan by itself is not anymore difficult to perform than Sharingan, in fact I think it's been stated by others in this thread that it may be easier because Hyuuga clan members inherit their abilities at an earlier age. Byakugan is used to enhance skills like Jyuuken and Kaiten just as Sharingan is used to enhance taijutsu and certain techniques like chidori. It can be used to copy techniques, but that skill is limited and Sharingan users must still train to become proficient with the techniques. As far as the advantages in vision, Sharingan is different from Byakugan but I don't see how it is more 'user-friendly'.

If you're talking in the sense that Sharingan is overpowered, then yeah, I'll agree with you as far as MS is concerned. Tsukuyomi, Amatersu and Kakashi's warp are almost ridiculously powerful. But these characters were already exceptional geniuses anyway who had already developed their Sharingan to the utmost capabilties. MS isn't obtainable by any ordinary Uchiha. In this way, MS can be considered to be similar to any other Kage lvl technique in that we can assume only already powerful characters can gain it.

So, I wouldn't say that the Sharingan takes less skill to use than Byakugan. I'd say that Sharingan carries more possibilties.

Byakugan is more of a skilltool. Yet when harnessed properly ... it does what the Sharingan does and more. Ill explain in more detail if someone doesnt understand what I mean.

Hmm? How can the Byakugan replicate effects such as the Sharingan's ability to copy techniques. Or do you just mean that Byakugan can be used to overcome any challenges that Sharingan can?