Kyoto Animation: Studio discussion, speculation, and whatnot.

[rulfo]

Originally Posted by cyth

I guess it's debatable whose bright idea was this (Japan's or CR's) but in the end it doesn't matter now, does it? The result is obvious: the show got a lot of attention. CR is an integral part of anime distribution now, they are a partner in this business. With this stunt they made a delusioned segment of the fanbase very happy, but the backlash against that only helped the anime's visibility, and that's all thanks to you guys!

I don't wanna roll over this again cause believe it or not I'm tired about it. But this once

Like brocko said, false premise. A lot of people signed a bogus petition. Even though I ranted about CR's undeserved praise, that's the least of the problems actually. It's just that blatant misinformation happened here. What is a someone/something without it's integrity? Not to mention they're running a company. They're making idiots dance in a bad fashion.

In the end yes nothing matters anymore. It airs and it's kyoani's stage. It all rests on them on whether it'll be a success. But it's necessary to get a little truth out. Anyway, topic over. For me at least.

Spoiler:

finally

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Have... have you ever even seen Lucky Star?

Yes, I have. It has plenty of "cuteness and friendship". The otaku reference comedy hardly takes away from that.

There are a lot of reasons why Nichijou failed!

Agreed. One thing that I think hurt Nichijou was how internally divided it was, narratively speaking. It was harder with Nichijou to latch on to specific characters and truly care about them because there was no core group of characters that truly dominated each and every Nichijou episode. I would argue this undermined the moe appeal of Nichijou's characters.

This is reflected by how the Nichijou girls did incredibly poorly in moe competitions, especially by previous KyoAni standards. So I hardly think it's an "insane argument" to think that moe fans found little appeal to Nichijou.

I think that moe fans, in general, aren't just looking for superficial cuteness, although that is a factor. They're also looking for cute characters with a certain well-developed personality appeal to them.

I think that moe fans are more discerning then people often give us credit for. I think that KyoAni once did exceptionally well in tapping into precisely what moe fans wanted, but they're not quite as on the mark in that regard in the last couple years (Chuunibyou representing the closest they've come to hitting the mark anew).

Furthermore, their two comparatively-low-selling series since Nichijou (Hyouka and Tamaket) are very similar to previous, high-selling works...

Hyouka and Tamaket have more varied casts than either Haruhi or K-On! Tamaket's issues I've already discussed before (it felt more family-oriented than otaku-oriented to many otakus, I think).

As for Hyouka, it really only has 2 moe girls as major characters, and even then only one of them is particularly popular - Eru Chitanda. One lone moe girl will only get you so far. It got Hyouka to the point that it was a decent seller, but nothing like Haruhi 2006 or K-On. Sheer quantity of moe characters can be a factor (I definitely think this helped Love Live!'s sales).

Haruhi has 3 moe girls as major characters, while K-On has 5.

you can't blame the "lack of moe" for their purported failure.

Hyouka wasn't a failure. Hyouka was probably as big a success as KyoAni could have made it.

You have to look at other factors, like perhaps Tamaket being a completely unknown quantity and Hyouka, like Nichijou, being an adaptation of a largely unknown series sold on 11 BDs rather than a more manageable number.

K-On was also an adaptation of a largely unknown series.

Right, and I would argue that K-On is an exception to the rule here. Their works prior to K-On were all adaptations of popular, well-established properties. That should tell you something about their success.

Kanon 2006 sold far, far better than Toei's Kanon did. So your argument here is not as strong as you think it is. KyoAni is exceptionally good at moe, and built a strong brand name on that basis as well as on two others (exceptionally good at adaptations, exceptionally good animation quality).

I definitely think the commercial benefits of KyoAni brand name strength from 2006 to 2009 is getting underestimated by many people on this thread.

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

I'm in agreeance with Kaisos about how moe is a individual feeling towards characters.

No, moe is much more than just that. There is quintessential moe. There are certain shows and characters that are widely agreed upon to be "moe" or "moe-oriented". There are loads of anime shows and characters that lacks such agreement. Moe is not entirely subjective.

Hyouka has done tremendously well! Taking sales for the first 10 volumes and creating an average of v8-10 for v11, I found that you would need to sell 14,4k BD/DVDs in order to match the same amount of revenue that Hyouka has earned in 7 volumes (6 x 3 episode, 1 x 4 episodes). I doubt anyone would say 14.4k is a failure. (Incidentally, if we go 8 volumes, it's 12.6k needed, still not bad)

In order to sell, one thing needed is to build a relationship with your audience beforehand via promotion. Why did Love Live do so well?

Because it is very moe, and exceptionally well-done moe tied to compelling characters and dramatic story.

Consider another recent big seller - Girls und Panzer. Another very moe all-girls show.

They started promoting it in July 2011!

To argue that promotion alone explains Love Live!'s sales is frankly a huge insult to the show. As a Love Live! fan, I strongly disagree with this notion.

When did promotion start for Tamako Market? November 2012, literally 6 weeks before it would air. That's not nearly enough time for people to build anticipation for it. I'm truly not surprised it's sold what it has thus far given that short amount of time it had for people to pay attention. Also, it came out between two insanely popular seasons with Fall '12 and Spring '13 either selling very very well or looking to sell very very well. People only have so much budget to spend.

But Love Live! aired at the same time as Tamako Market, and Love Live! didn't have any problem selling. So "time of airing" isn't a legitimate excuse/explanation for Tamaket's relatively weak sales, imo.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Consider another recent big seller - Girls und Panzer. Another very moe all-girls show.

As one who followed the series, a good deal of the pull of the show was the sports premise as well as the tanks, but mostly because of the tanks (you had few real character development outside of a few girls really, despite its frankly HUGE cast of supporting characters). Having a show with tank combat that's well-researched AND well-executed is pretty rare.

But do go on with the sales vis sa vis the so-called moe pull that KyoAni's been using in their more recent productions.

[RRW]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Consider another recent big seller - Girls und Panzer. Another very moe all-girls show.

Bad Example. We talking about a tank club that do tank stuff for 80% of the time. Not music club that did not do music stuff for 80% of the time

[Midonin]

My reactions to that series are already well documented. Not that mixing moe and military is impossible (it's so very possible), but I'd point to something like So Ra no Wo To as a better example of this sort of thing.

[Myssa Rei]

I think the point being made was that the shows being used as examples (Love Live and Girls und Panzer) had moe, but it wasn't the sole draw and the source of their success.

Compare these to two shows KyoAni did (Nichijou and Tamako Market) that didn't do quite as well, where it was perceived that moe would be the main draw, but didn't quite pan out, and a recent show that did actually get decent sales (Chuunibyou, which only trailed a little behind Girls und Panzer and Jojo in terms of units sold).

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

As one who followed the series, a good deal of the pull of the show was the sports premise as well as the tanks, but mostly because of the tanks (you had few real character development outside of a few girls really, despite its frankly HUGE cast of supporting characters). Having a show with tank combat that's well-researched AND well-executed is pretty rare.

But do go on with the sales vis sa vis the so-called moe pull that KyoAni's been using in their more recent productions.

Originally Posted by RRW

Bad Example. We talking about a tank club that do tank stuff for 80% of the time. Not music club that did not do music stuff for 80% of the time

I recall seeing some people dropping Girls und Panzer because it wasn't the kind of "moe" they expected, which is pretty funny. It makes itself quite clear that it's foremost a sports series, and not a slice-of-life based around girls eating cake. To say that the "cute girl" appeal didn't pull most fans into GuP, though, is wrong.

K-On sacrificed lots of musical moments to draw out the SOL parts, which worked out in the end since it gave its characters more focus and made them all the more endearing and moe.

[Folenfant]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

The problem is for an information about clearing up myths there are things that are inaccurate in that blog post.

The post says that Free! is not the first Kyoani series for women because K-ON happened to be popular with a female audience.

But K-ON was not created with a female audience in mind it just happened to work well with that audience.

In the same was Kuroko no Basket was also not targeted at girls but is also popular with that demographic

Or PreCure is not targeted at men but has become popular with that audience.

Just because a series reaches outside its original target demographic does not mean that was the target demographic.

So yes Free! is the first series Kyoani made for women and saying so is not a myth.

And no some hot spring fanservice in Hyouka doesn't count. There was fanservice of the girls in the first ending sequence too (of course Hyouka itself was in general pretty free of any fanservice).

Although I am not going to argue that maybe Kyoani just wanted to make this series and it had nothing to do with wanting to try another demographic.

Yeah I wouldn't really call this a mythbusting article. It feels more like a guy trying to defend the studio on this particular issue and in general and the author doesn't use a whole lot of objective data to support his claims so much as the writers clearly passionate feelings for the studio. Not very informative and doesn't really go anywhere or reach a clear culminating conclusion and its a shame cause I do feel like there are quite a few myths around the studio on both the supporter and critic side of the Kyoani fence.

[Tempester]

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[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

As one who followed the series, a good deal of the pull of the show was the sports premise as well as the tanks, but mostly because of the tanks (you had few real character development outside of a few girls really, despite its frankly HUGE cast of supporting characters). Having a show with tank combat that's well-researched AND well-executed is pretty rare.

I know.

Here is the key lead-in point to my argument- Moe fans aren't just looking for superficial cuteness (i.e. cute character designs), though that is part of what they/we are looking for. Much of what makes a character "moe" is personality-based. And like any other personality-based character appeal, it takes time and focus to flesh it out well.

Haruhi and K-On both had a very firm focus on a five-member main cast. In Haruhi's case, that's 3 "cute girls" and 2 guys. In K-On's, it's 5 "cute girls". They all get a lot of focus, which makes it easier for viewers to care about them. An essential part of getting viewers to view a character as "moe" is getting them to care about those characters.

Nichijou and Tamaket were much more divided in their character focus. With the exception of Tamako herself, the main female characters of both shows don't get as much focus as the main female characters of Haruhi and K-On.


Now, my main point - KyoAni built up a very strong brand name, at least in part, due to how it was widely perceived as being uniquely good at building up/presenting well fleshed-out, generally endearing personalities for its moe characters. I would argue that this is a common strength seen in all of the Key/KyoAni works, as well as in Haruhi, Lucky Star, and K-On.

Nichijou, with greater internal narration/character focus divisions, didn't have this to quite the same degree. Nor did Tamako Market. Hyouka did have this, but it also only had 2 moe girls in the main cast, not 3 (Haruhi) or 5 (K-On).


To be clear, I'm certainly not saying that moe, and/or brand name strength, was the sole driver of KyoAni's once-towering commercial strength. But I do think it was a significant factor (amongst a few or seveal), and may well help account for sales differences between Haruhi, K-On, the Key Trio on one hand and Nichijou and Tamaket on the other hand.

Basically, I think there was a time (2007-to-2009, partly in response to Haruhi) when DVD/Blu-Ray buying moe fans would turn to KyoAni first for their choices on which shows to follow and purchase. I think this gave KyoAni a considerable competitive edge at one time, that it has since largely lost (in fairness, a lot of this has to do with other studios becoming better at creating/adapting/presenting shows with strong moe appeal).


As for Girls und Panzer, it is an All-Girls show with that "superficial cuteness" (i.e. cute character designs). But from what I've heard from its fans, it does do a good job of developing a few core characters, even though it does have a sprawling cast. This likely contributed to its sales success. So I disagree with the idea that it's a "bad example" for my argument.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

I think the point being made was that the shows being used as examples (Love Live and Girls und Panzer) had moe, but it wasn't the sole draw and the source of their success.

Compare these to two shows KyoAni did (Nichijou and Tamako Market) that didn't do quite as well, where it was perceived that moe would be the main draw, but didn't quite pan out, and a recent show that did actually get decent sales (Chuunibyou, which only trailed a little behind Girls und Panzer and Jojo in terms of units sold).

Chuunibyou had a fairly small core cast of characters, mostly moe girls. In overall vibe, feel, and presentation, it came the closest to "classic KyoAni" of any of the last 4 or so KyoAni productions. I definitely think that was a factor in its success.

Originally Posted by Tempester

I recall seeing some people dropping Girls und Panzer because it wasn't the kind of "moe" they expected, which is pretty funny. It makes itself quite clear that it's foremost a sports series, and not a slice-of-life based around girls eating cake. To say that the "cute girl" appeal didn't pull most fans into GuP, though, is wrong.

Agreed. Good points.


Edit for overarching opinions: I want to be clear here that I'm not necessarily saying that KyoAni's current direction is "bad" for them commercially. Perhaps it will pay off. Perhaps they can effectively gain a large fujoshi audience without sacrificing much of their moe audience.

But in many ways, this honestly makes me think of politics. It's like a major political party changing some of its policies to try to win over a particular demographic. But the thing is, some of that political party's supporters were supportive of it precisely because of its old, pre-change policies. Some of those supporters may be lost through the policy shift. Of course, with skillful deft handling the political party might be able to nuance it all to get the best of both worlds. Likewise, KyoAni might pull off great success here. But long-term, I don't think it's a sure thing. There's real risks in the direction they're now going in. That's why I consider it bold of them, regardless of what my personal preferences might be (I thought most here know my strong preference would have been another Haruhi season).

[Ithekro]

Girls und Panzers is the weird one on the grouping. Basically because at its start the idea of cute girls and tanks sounds like an awfully stupid idea. I basically passed it up because it sounded like a bad idea and a silly concept.

What brought me in was two things. First was my searches for Yamato 2199 videos on NicoVideo. There I found some clips of the tank fighting in episode 4 dubbed over with Yamato music. I watched it and though "that was some pretty good looking tank combat"...regardless of how silly the paint jobs were that episode. I had to call up a friend of mine that is way more into tanks of that era to see if what they were doing was legit, and it was, which impressed me more. I then more or less passed on it again for a week or two. Then there was this video of 15 Russian tanks in formation with Japanese girls singing a folk song in Russian. It was sort of that moment were you say, "I gotta see this This is way too awesome for what this should said it was going to be about". That and more and more of the tank battles were being dubbed using Yamato sound effects and music which also sells it to me.

A similar thing happened with Haruhi (which got me more into modern anime than I already was). I was looking up Yamato parodies and homages. Well the Wiki list has Haruhi episode 11 on the list. So I watch that one first. That's the computer game/space battle episode which floored me at the detail and other things (mostly Yuki). From there I watched the whole series and then jumped into Lucky Star, which was airing at the time...starting with the cosplay cafe episode with Konata playing Haruhi (which had aired I think only a week or two before I started watching). Which leads to a long line of shows that I watched since then.

But for all these thing, it was always started by Space Battleship Yamato.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Tempester

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I agree with HomuHomu.

:3

[GDiddy]

Originally Posted by Tempester

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I was amused by this and still am to a degree, but the complete misogyny and homophobia are sickening now. If your sexuality is THAT threatened by watching animated dudes in speedos, then you need some help. No lie. I can understand getting disappointed about not getting another season of like, FMP or Haruhi, or even Chunibyu, but come on now.....dropping anime altogether because OH NOES SOME SHOW IS DOING SOMETHING FOR WOMMINZ

I don't even know what disturbs me more: the homophobia and misogyny for female fans or the one who commented about how anime should only be enjoyed by men pretending to be little girls...

[Ragecry]

I wonder if they're making people rage to have a major announcement right after this.. lol.
Seriously, I'd throw a brick on the wall if I had any hopes for an anime, but I saw this coming.
Good thing I don't rely ONLY on anime to amuse me, or I'd be dead by frustation right now lol

[GDiddy]

Originally Posted by Ragecry

I wonder if they're making people rage to have a major announcement right after this.. lol.
Seriously, I'd throw a brick on the wall if I had any hopes for an anime, but I saw this coming.
Good thing I don't rely ONLY on anime to amuse me, or I'd be dead by frustation right now lol

They'll announce some show with a cute girl for the lead and then all would will be well in the world again

Is FMP even still popular in Japan? I've never seen the series but I do know that both were aired quite some time ago.

[Kirarakim]

They already announced Kyoukai no Kanata which is an action series

[hinode]

They also already announced more Chuunibyou, which definately counts for cute female leads.

That'll make five consecutive shows for Kyoani where they publish/own the rights themselves. That's an unmistakable signal of where they want to go in the future, both creatively and financially.

[GDiddy]

Originally Posted by hinode

They also already announced more Chuunibyou, which definately counts for cute female leads.

That'll make five consecutive shows for Kyoani where they publish/own the rights themselves. That's an unmistakable signal of where they want to go in the future, both creatively and financially.

And more importantly there's more cute girls that the moe fanboys can fap to. So there you go.




I'm fine if they do more Chunibyu...though the ending I thought was perfect.

[Ragecry]

Actually not the reason why I'm raged at the swimming anime.

I just think they could give Haruhi that bump and go on with the other novels into anime.

I can't find any place to buy 'em here, and amazon isn't a choice for me, unfortunately. (Until I get a credit card that is).

Nonetheless, I still got games lol

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

P.S. I will say that, in addition to being a slower-paced show, it's a show that took a little while to grow on me. So you might consider giving it a few more episodes (maybe to the end of the first arc?). But of course, it clearly isn't for everyone.

Definitely. The first episode of Hyouka is primarily a mood piece and not particularly representative of the series. Even Reckoner and Enzo, two of the most passionate and hotblooded Hyouka fans in the history of mankind, were rather bored by the first episode (if I recall correctly). My initial impressions likewise amount to little more than just 'eh,' but I grew a very soft spot for it with time. It's a great story with wonderful characters and mesmerizing artwork. I'd highly recommend it.