Friendship and lovers

[dreamless]

I think it's defined as "more than friendship, but less than love" kind of feelings...

[MercuryKnight]

The relationships vary from admiration to friendship to love. What really interests me is that each relationship seems to have an under lining reason for coming about. When I watched the first show I got the feeling that being a seour was like a popularity contest and certainly when you meet the first two petite seours you get the idea, but as the shows progress you start to realize that it's much more than that. The older sisters really care about there petite seours and are doing their very best to help them grow and mature into young adults. In the same vane each of the relationships is different because of each girls personallity and each girl having different needs. I personally find the whole thing fascinating.



For me that's what makes this such a great show.

[Rosa_Gigantea]

Originally Posted by mantidor

i can't consider myself an expert on marimite, but for what i've seen their relationships are not defined. Is very girly IMO that two girls go around holding hands,so the line is very, very blurry, and i think that makes their relations more interesting. Is just a really deep friendship, or does it cross the line??? is great to speculate about this subject, i have the impression that even at the end of the whole series we wouldn't be sure about it...

To make it simple, i think that Sei and Shiori are what you would consider yuri, while the other girls are ( for now...) just friends.

Is so great to have an all-girl school anime, now what we need is an all-boy school anime!...

There's Kaze to Ki no uta from the early 1970's that is said to be first shounen ai manga series or one of the earliest ones. It's by keiko takemiya and takes place in a french all boys school. There's a 40 minute oav that has been fansubbed too.

Someone else mentioned Koko wa Green wood. Rumors have it that viz has licensed the manga.

manga about boys in all boy school are not that hard to find in yaoi genre ^^;

anime wise:
Kaze to ki no uta
koko wa greenwood
Natsu e no Tobira (doorway into summer)


going back to girls , has anyone seen Brother dear Brother? it predates Maria-sama by about 25 or so years and was made into 39 episode anime in early 1990's . Similar concept about girls with strong feelings for other girls set in a sorority type setting. The difference is that the characters are not all that loveable as Maria-sama. They have ISSUES and some could benefit from some psychiatric counselling but I find it a very interesting and complex relationship and character driven story that crosses the friendshipg-shoujo ai line.

[Rosa_Gigantea]

Am I the only one here that thinks that these two have something going on more than just familial love? dude come on. Did you see the feeling of anguish on Yoshino's face when whatsherface was clinging onto Rei's arm in ep 12?
There's just a bit more than just them caring for each other in a platonic way.
I don't think that all the girls are lesbians or in love with each other but certain relationships imho do come off more than just platonic or familial love.

[MercuryKnight]

Originally Posted by Rosa_Gigantea

Am I the only one here that thinks that these two have something going on more than just familial love? dude come on. Did you see the feeling of anguish on Yoshino's face when whatsherface was clinging onto Rei's arm in ep 12?
There's just a bit more than just them caring for each other in a platonic way.
I don't think that all the girls are lesbians or in love with each other but certain relationships imho do come off more than just platonic or familial love.

I don't agree, though I may be wrong, but if you have a best friend and you see someone else with that best friend, do you not feel jealousy. You would if you didn't have many friends. Yoshino's not been well, doesn't have many friends because of it and she openly admits that to Yumi in one of thier conversations. In that case yes I can see that anguish because her best friend is seemingly close to another person.

Just my opinion. Mercury.

[Rosa_Gigantea]

Originally Posted by MercuryKnight

I don't agree, though I may be wrong, but if you have a best friend and you see someone else with that best friend, do you not feel jealousy. You would if you didn't have many friends. Yoshino's not been well, doesn't have many friends because of it and she openly admits that to Yumi in one of thier conversations. In that case yes I can see that anguish because her best friend is seemingly close to another person.

Just my opinion. Mercury.

that's the great thing about Maria-mite it leaves a lot up for interpretation. I respect your opinion but I see it differently

[atua]

I think Yoshino is so upset because Rei is basically the center of her personal universe. Like MercuryKnight said, Yoshino's had to take a lot of time off from school because of her illness and so don't have many friends apart from Rei. So Rei has been Yoshino's best friend, confidant, play mate, etc all rolled into one. On the other hand, from all appearances Rei seems to be a very popular member of Lilian, probably from kindergarden/primary school. I think in more private moments, Yoshino sometimes wonders just how little she has to offer Rei (given her medical condition) to make Rei want to stay her friend, especially compared to all the fans who so clearly adore and admire Rei. So basically the whole yellow rose date played right into Yoshino's worst fears, and she reacted initially with jealousy at the thought of Rei spending time with someone else, and later on with anguish at the thought that she's replacable in Rei's heart, when Rei reacted so kindly at Tanuma Chisato's attempts to be more intimate.

In my personal experience, it's not that unusal to see best friends become very possessive of each other's time and company. Perhaps they're not as jealous as Yoshino, but then again they haven't been through what Yoshino has.

[Worldestroyer]

First off.... ARE YOU HAPPY WITH MY SIG NOW?...... anyways i think some relationships go farther then friendship and some just level off. We don't really know unless there is some more specific manga or maybe a more risk'e sequal.

[atua]

Originally Posted by Worldestroyer

We don't really know unless there is some more specific manga or maybe a more risk'e sequal.

I think it *is* possible to come to some conclusions about the relationships on the series even if we don't see more explicit scenes. I'd like to think that the audience is intelligent enough to pick up certain subtext without being beaten over the head with it. Actually I'm glad there aren't any risque scenes in series 1, and sincerely hope that this stays the case in series 2. As others have said, fanservice do not always have to be of a sexual nature.

[MercuryKnight]

Originally Posted by atua

I think it *is* possible to come to some conclusions about the relationships on the series even if we don't see more explicit scenes. I'd like to think that the audience is intelligent enough to pick up certain subtext without being beaten over the head with it. Actually I'm glad there aren't any risque scenes in series 1, and sincerely hope that this stays the case in series 2. As others have said, fanservice do not always have to be of a sexual nature.

I agree atua, not only that, but I think that one of the things I like most about the show is the relationships and how they develop. I think you can get a good understanding of the relationships by how they interact with each other and with characters outside of the relationship. Things like Yumi and Yoshino's facial expressions give you insite into how they feel about other people. Also tidbits of things that they drop in conversation. There are all kinds of clues, all you have to do is put them together and even then not everyone is going to come to the same conclusion. Which makes threads like this so much fun.

[Ialdaboth]

Originally Posted by Rosa_Gigantea

going back to girls , has anyone seen Brother dear Brother? it predates Maria-sama by about 25 or so years and was made into 39 episode anime in early 1990's . Similar concept about girls with strong feelings for other girls set in a sorority type setting. The difference is that the characters are not all that loveable as Maria-sama. They have ISSUES and some could benefit from some psychiatric counselling but I find it a very interesting and complex relationship and character driven story that crosses the friendshipg-shoujo ai line.

I've seen episodes 1-20 of BDB, and yes, the concept is very similar (young, pure, innocent and quite normal girl brought to the attention of the Greater Powers of the school - in fact, the Yuri Ml already did the comparison Marimite / BDB or Utena). The main difference is that BDB, being a work from Riyoko Ikdeda, is overly dramatical (IMO, and according to what i know of Ikeda-sensei works, meaning Versailles no bara). Marimite is way more tame and uneventful ^^

And the lesbian thing... Please, stop seeing lesbians at every corners. Apart maybe the Sei x Shiori episode, the relations in the serie are mainly sexless and more a question of mutual respect and strong friendship. Well, I think ^^.

[MercuryKnight]

Originally Posted by Ialdaboth

And the lesbian thing... Please, stop seeing lesbians at every corners. Apart maybe the Sei x Shiori episode, the relations in the serie are mainly sexless and more a question of mutual respect and strong friendship. Well, I think ^^.

I agree that some people seem to read a bit too much into the whole lesbian thing, that is their perception or opinion and they're certianly entitled to that. Though I believe there is very little of that in the existing relationships, I think it adds to the story. The fact that Sei had such a relationship and Yumi knows about it seems intregal to their relationship and definitely effects how Yumi acts around Sei especially when they are in close quarters. It adds to the Yumi spice so to speak.

To go outside of the story for just a moment. I would suggest that though there doesn't seem to be any current yuri relationships in the story, I would say that Sei and her Grand Soeur had such a relationship after the Sei x Shiori episode and that Sei might also have be envolved with Youko at one time though that is more of a guess.

Just stirring the pot Mercury

[Shad da Von]

Originally Posted by MercuryKnight

I agree that some people seem to read a bit too much into the whole lesbian thing, that is their perception or opinion and they're certianly entitled to that. Though I believe there is very little of that in the existing relationships, I think it adds to the story.

I think people can be blinded to the reality of things if they wish to find what they want. That is to say people see what they want if not careful. Perhaps that is the case with Marimite? Some people watch it expecting to see yuri so thats indeed what they see it to be. Thats my personal opinion.

Originally Posted by MercuryKnight

To go outside of the story for just a moment. I would suggest that though there doesn't seem to be any current yuri relationships in the story, I would say that Sei and her Grand Soeur had such a relationship after the Sei x Shiori episode and that Sei might also have be envolved with Youko at one time though that is more of a guess.

Just stirring the pot Mercury

I personally doubt this. I think Sei would be more in a state of recovery from losing Shiori. Sei seemed to exist for only Shiori, after losing her she would need time to recover before she could love anything again. After being so focused on Shiori do you think she would start new relationships almost immediately after losing her? I guess there is always the possibility; however, this thought doesn't mesh with my understanding of Sei.

[MercuryKnight]

Originally Posted by Shad da Von

I personally doubt this. I think Sei would be more in a state of recovery from losing Shiori. Sei seemed to exist for only Shiori, after losing her she would need time to recover before she could love anything again. After being so focused on Shiori do you think she would start new relationships almost immediately after losing her? I guess there is always the possibility; however, this thought doesn't mesh with my understanding of Sei.

I believe the ending of the Sei x Shiori episode supports my statement. But once again it is open to interpretation of the watcher. You could be quite correct as well. The thing I note about Sei is that she seems to be a very carefree and happy person, someone who has loved, lost and possibly learned to love again. How she got to the point she's at I can only guess. Since I can't read the stories and I have only read a bit of the manga, I have only the vague references from the shows to go by. Hopefully there will be something in the second season that will give us more clues to her past. I look forward to it.

P.S. Nice to see a fellow Canadian taking part in the discussion. Hopefully there are more Maria-sama fans among us.

[Rosa_Gigantea]

Originally Posted by Ialdaboth

I've seen episodes 1-20 of BDB, and yes, the concept is very similar (young, pure, innocent and quite normal girl brought to the attention of the Greater Powers of the school - in fact, the Yuri Ml already did the comparison Marimite / BDB or Utena). The main difference is that BDB, being a work from Riyoko Ikdeda, is overly dramatical (IMO, and according to what i know of Ikeda-sensei works, meaning Versailles no bara). Marimite is way more tame and uneventful ^^

And the lesbian thing... Please, stop seeing lesbians at every corners. Apart maybe the Sei x Shiori episode, the relations in the serie are mainly sexless and more a question of mutual respect and strong friendship. Well, I think ^^.

I'm a girl who likes girls A LOT but I'm not that obsessed with pairing off anime girls with each other. I just think there's little more to Yoshino and Rei's relationship. Can't people be friends and lovers? Of course it's also possible that they may just be REALLY CLOSE friends ^_^

[aniforever]

Originally Posted by Rosa_Gigantea

I'm a girl who likes girls A LOT but I'm not that obsessed with pairing off anime girls with each other. I just think there's little more to Yoshino and Rei's relationship. Can't people be friends and lovers? Of course it's also possible that they may just be REALLY CLOSE friends ^_^

yea i think so too. though others might think differently since they are cousins. iono maybe they are just really really good friends but seriously i have yet to have any friends that i'm really close to that i don't like on a different level. oh well ja ne.

[Frog]

Originally Posted by Rosa_Gigantea

I'm a girl who likes girls A LOT but I'm not that obsessed with pairing off anime girls with each other. I just think there's little more to Yoshino and Rei's relationship. Can't people be friends and lovers? Of course it's also possible that they may just be REALLY CLOSE friends ^_^

I also think Yoshino and Rei's relationship is more or less different then any of the other girls relationships with there souers because of the fact that they've know each other for so long plus the fact that they are cousins. With those two though i think they tend to step out of the box more in terms of there "sisterly relationship" because each one has these deep rooted feelings because of there strong family bond which makes there relationship stronger then most of the other girls and there souers.

[MercuryKnight]

Originally Posted by aniforever

yea i think so too. though others might think differently since they are cousins. iono maybe they are just really really good friends but seriously i have yet to have any friends that i'm really close to that i don't like on a different level. oh well ja ne.

Friendship and love, where does one start and the other end and are the two mutually exclusive? I personally don't think they are. You can certainly love your friends, certainly I have friends that I love that are male, but I don't love them the same way I love my wife. So where is the line drawn. In the Rei/Yoshino relationship there is no doubt in my mind that they love each other very much. That is easy for anyone to see. How that love manifests itself is a totally different question? I don't think Yoshino's jealousy stems from a Yuri type relationship, but rather from the jealousy of someone who has had a certain persons attention all of her life and suddenly finds that attention seemingly focused somewhere else. I may be wrong, it's all how you read the evidence. Yoshinos admitting to Yumi that she's never had any real friends. The way she acted when the dates were first mentioned. These things are very open to interpretation, but my interpretation is that she is jealous of her friendship.

I think of Rei as as being almost motherly to Yoshino, Loving her and protecting her from the world and Yoshino as being the only child who suddenly sees her mom with a new baby.

[aniforever]

Originally Posted by MercuryKnight

Friendship and love, where does one start and the other end and are the two mutually exclusive? I personally don't think they are. You can certainly love your friends, certainly I have friends that I love that are male, but I don't love them the same way I love my wife. So where is the line drawn. In the Rei/Yoshino relationship there is no doubt in my mind that they love each other very much. That is easy for anyone to see. How that love manifests itself is a totally different question? I don't think Yoshino's jealousy stems from a Yuri type relationship, but rather from the jealousy of someone who has had a certain persons attention all of her life and suddenly finds that attention seemingly focused somewhere else. I may be wrong, it's all how you read the evidence. Yoshinos admitting to Yumi that she's never had any real friends. The way she acted when the dates were first mentioned. These things are very open to interpretation, but my interpretation is that she is jealous of her friendship.

I think of Rei as as being almost motherly to Yoshino, Loving her and protecting her from the world and Yoshino as being the only child who suddenly sees her mom with a new baby.

seriously i have no idea where the line is drawn either. i mean there's a fine line between love and hate but with love and friendship who can tell the difference? i know that i certainly can not. since girls are naturally more passionate and loving toward other girls it's hard to tell. if it's said that what girls feel about other girls are just friendship then what category should tomoyo fall into. i mean it has always been assume that tomoyo loves sakura very much, more then just friends, but if your telling me that tomoyo only loves sakura because she's her best friend then i don't know what to say.

i believe that love does not always have to concern physical contact. though if so then isn't that consider being normal friends or being best friends. if best friend replace love then yuri or shoujo-ai does not exist. so no matter how close two girls are they are still consider friends until physical or intimate contact is present. if two girls are shopping together are you able to tell if they are lovers or friends? i don't know. actually i don't even know what the heck i am saying. so if you don't understand what i'm saying then don't worrie it's not you it's me.

i am not completely sure about yoshino's feelings toward rei since the part where she went to spy on rei on her date after seeing what happen she just decided to forget about it and went shopping. though for rei it's different. it's really hard to believe that someone about the same age as the other can have motherly feeling for that person.

loving someone and wanting to protect them...iono maybe my reaction is so strong because i feel like rei is somewhat like me but... hehe i am putting too much thought into this. no matter what you say or do it's still just an anime. still i need something to occupy me until season two comes out or else i'll eventually forget about marmite and i don't want that to happen.

[MercuryKnight]

Originally Posted by aniforever

i believe that love does not always have to concern physical contact. though if so then isn't that consider being normal friends or being best friends. if best friend replace love then yuri or shoujo-ai does not exist. so no matter how close two girls are they are still consider friends until physical or intimate contact is present. if two girls are shopping together are you able to tell if they are lovers or friends? i don't know. actually i don't even know what they heck i am saying. so if you don't understand what i'm saying then don't worrie it's not you it's me.

I think I understand what you're saying. I think that if you have a best friend, in all likelyhood you probably love that person, but you don't nessesarily have a physical relationship with that person, but you could. I do have a best friend, she and I have been best friends since we were both 15 and I certainly love her very much. I do feel I know something about best friends.
Also I think you can have other friends and love them too, but physical love probably doesn't come into it. If I see two girls out shopping together, no I can tell if they are just friends, whether the love each other, and I definitely won't be able to tell if the have a physical relationship and anything that I said to the contrary would be purely conjecture on my part.

Originally Posted by aniforever

I am not completely sure about yoshino's feelings toward rei since the part where she went to spy on rei on her date after seeing what happen she just decided to forget about it and went shopping. though for rei it's different. it's really hard to believe that someone about the same age as the other can have motherly feeling for that person.

Now how do I apply this to Yoshino and Rei. Your right, I too found the fact that Yoshino just up and went shopping after being so concerned a little odd. It's a tough one, how to explain it?
I think quite possible seeing Rei with on the date may have been so painful for her that she couldn't watch any longer, but I doubt it. More likely she just realized how foolish she was being and moved on.
Now about Rei being motherly. Personally I think it's obvious, first of all age has nothing to do with it. I've seen a 10 year old mother a bird or small animal that's sick. Rei is what 16 or 17 she is certainly old enough to feel those feelings. But I think in the 4th and 5th episodes there are many signs of that. Her carrying Yoshino's bag, wanting to go to the doctor's with her, and seeing her home safely at night. I personally see those as motherly things. Once again these things are open to the interpretation of the watcher and maybe I see them differently then others because I'm a parent and have been for 20 years.

Originally Posted by aniforever

loving someone and wanting to protect them...iono maybe my reaction is so strong because i feel like rei is somewhat like me but... hehe i am putting too much thought into this. no matter what you say or do it's still just an anime. still i need something to occupy me until season two comes out or else i'll eventually forget about marmite and i don't want that to happen.

Well Rei may very well be like you, since I don't know you I personally can't say. I think when people watch shows they like to see a character in the show as being like them. They identify with that character. Personally I think that makes the show more interesting for them. Unfortunately for me there is no one in the show that I can say is like me. Though I do have a tendency to tease people like Sei teases Yumi and I like women so we have that in common as well (oops just joking ).
Maybe I'm putting to much thought into this as well, but I'm having fun, so I will continue.
And lastly I Love this show and I can't wait for the second season. I won't forget about marmite.