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Originally Posted by relentlessflame
No, Saori specifically says "Well, it's natural for you to be concerned about your sister" (no reference to her acting nice or this specific situation). He blushes, and then fervently denies it.
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I just rewatched this scene to see if I missed something, or misremembered it.
Interestingly, we don't hear what Kyousuke said to Saori for her to go into Kirino's level of involvement in the maid party for Kyousuke in Episode 11. Admittedly, I guess I just assumed that Saori went into that because Kyousuke questioned her on what could be causing Kirino to be acting so atypically nice all of a sudden (since that would fit with what came before in this episode). But it
is possible it wasn't that at all, I'll admit.
One thing that stood out to me during Kyousuke's phone conversation with Saori is that he was handling, and looking at, the eroge gift that Kirino gave him. Maybe
in the context of his sister giving him a siscon eroge game, he feels a bit embarrassed at Saori's suggestions that it's "Natural for him to be concerned about Kirino"?
In any event, I'll admit that this scene is the one that fits the "Kyousuke is tsundere" argument the best, but I just don't think it's enough in and of itself to warrant chalking everything up to the idea of him being a tsundere. Many of his actions and words elsewhere really don't strike me as all that tsundere. In fact, some come across to me as him being anything but. I think that other theories on him and his character can perhaps "fit the facts" a bit better than "Kyousuke is a tsundere" (all on its own, anyway).
Now, just to be clear, I'm not against the idea of a male character being a tsundere. For example, I'm inclined to think that Kyon (
The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya) is one. But Kyon
earns that distinction by being an "unreliable narrator" and frequently very snarky to Haruhi and the SOS Brigade. I just don't see anywhere near that Kyon-level of tsundere behavior from Kyousuke. Kyousuke is nowhere near as snarky as Kyon, and the way he shows affection and caring is much more open (i.e. can you honestly imagine Kyon being moved to tears over Haruhi doing something nice for him?).
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No, that's not the meaning or intonation of what's said. If it were, why do you think Kirino would be so upset?
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Because that's not what she wants to hear. She wants him to ask her to stay. And when Kirino doesn't get what she wants...
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Her reaction was immediate anger after he said the second sentence. If it were that meaning of "do what you want", it would have been 勝手にしろ and wouldn't have needed the "go" on the front end.
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Ok, look, one thing I'm going to make clear right now: I'm
not fluent in Japanese. I don't think that a viewer of this anime should have to be in order to discuss these episodes, or its characters.
Like most other people on this thread, I suspect, I'm trusting the subbing teams to get the translation right, and working from the sub text that I see on the screen.
Obviously, if the translation is off considerably, then that can change the whole feeling of a scene, and lead to a dramatically different interpretation of it.
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He's not giving up and telling her to make her own decision by any means.
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If the sub translation is accurate then that
is what he's saying, in my opinion. If it's not accurate, then I have no idea what he's saying, because I don't know Japanese (aside from a small handful of words, and even then I only recognize their sound/meaning; not what they actually look like in Japanese).
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Edit: I am thinking that what he's saying here is 行けよ！清々するは！, which is more like "Go on! I'll feel better (relieved) when you do!"... which would definitely explain Kirino's reaction.
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Well, that would fit in with part of my take on his words here. It would dispense with him wanting her to make a decision that reflects her honest feelings and goals, but it would show that her tsuntsun relapse pissed him off and lead him to say things in anger that maybe he otherwise would not have said.
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The problem is that sentence lacks a clear subject, so if you just take it on its own you could take it as "Do what makes you feel better" (or "Do as you like"), but that doesn't make sense in context of what else is going on.
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Why not? Look, the dude clearly would rather if Kirino was less tsuntsun and more straightforwardly kind towards him. He was quite happy in Episode 11 when she became like that.
Even if he is somewhat tsundere towards her, I don't think that he wants
her to be tsundere towards him.
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We'll have to wait for other translations to see how they render it, but I think the tone and reaction tell the story.
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I don't think that the tone and reaction rules out my interpretation of this scene. "Do what you want!" is something that can be said in an angry tone, in an argument, and as a reaction from a person that is tired of playing relationship games.
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Did you not notice how much work it took to break down Kirino's pride?
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Didn't Saori say that Kirino was quite active in the preparations for the maid party for Kyousuke?
That doesn't sound to me like somebody who had to be dragged kicking and screaming to do what she did there.
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It took a whole ton of anger, prodding, time running out, and the threat of him leaving for her to finally let go.
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Still, it shows that Kyousuke and Kirino are capable of being honest to one another about their feelings, and that pride is not a completely incontrovertible wall for either of them there.
I really don't agree with your interpretation, RelentlessFlame, that these two like playing the "hide your feelings" game with one another. Or, at least, I don't think that Kyousuke does. There's just a degree of mutual bashfulness there that is hard to overcome because they've probably been very distant from one another for very long.
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And he was so taken aback by the "ambush" that he broke down because he wasn't expecting her to be grateful -- he was doing it out of a sense of duty and had long since given up on thanks.
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Absolutely. Here we agree on Kyousuke. However, it only felt like an ambush to him, though, because the whole thing was
very premeditated.
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Once the wall was down, sure, he was able to reciprocate. But that doesn't mean he's all of a sudden going to be able to admit that he loves her any more than she can admit that she loves him.
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Maybe not in so many words, but by them simply being nice and warm to each other... I think he'd want that. I'm less sure on her, but I think he definitely wants that.
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All in all, I'm not quite buying the "he's fed up with her tsuntsun behaviour and wants her to be nice to him" theory.
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Well, it fits a lot of what we've seen of him. It fits the dream he had of a cute sister at the very beginning of the anime. If fits how moved, and appreciative, he was of Kirino's actions and words during the maid party. And it fits how blissfully happy he is at the end of this episode.
Also, he's obviously fed up with her tsuntsun behavior. He's made that openly known many times. Whenever he stands up for himself to her, it's clearly in response to her tsuntsun behavior. How anybody could actually thinks he's fond of her tsuntsun behavior is truly beyond me.
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It's a nice theory, but I don't think it totally reflects what happened in this episode, and I don't think that's why he was happy at the end.
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I have to disagree with you then. I think that it does totally reflect what happened in this episode (or at least doesn't contradict anything that happened in this episode), and I definitely think that is why he was happy at the end.
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun
You're misunderstanding *facepalm*
The happiness at the end of the episode (I.e. - The "dere") is a direct result of the dishonesty in the earlier argument between Kyousuke and Kirino (I.e. - The "tsun.") |
I simply don't think that he was dishonest there - I think that he really did want her to make a choice that was reflective of her honest feelings and goals (unless the sub translation was off, of course). So, for me, there's no "tsun" part to the equation here.
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Hence my conclusion that Kyousuke is just as much of a tsundere as Kirino.
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You know, I'm willing to buy that there might be a slight touch of tsundere in Kyousuke, but to actually argue that he's every bit as tsundere as Kirino is... DeX-kun, don't you think that's a bit much?
Kirino is very tsundere...
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I would agree with you if it weren't for the anime blatantly pointing out to Kyousuke what Kirino actually wanted him to say, yet Kyousuke still chose to be dishonest.
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He's not being dishonest, imo. In my opinion, he's wanting
her to be honest, and to stop playing games (such as her trying to use reverse psychology to get Kyousuke to say what she wants him to say). Either that, or he simply allowed his anger (in the moment) to get the better of him.
Sometimes once you're in a heated argument with someone, you say things that you don't really mean,
just because your angry (it has nothing to do with intentional dishonesty) and you're lashing out, in a knee-jerk way, at the person that you're angry with.
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Then wouldn't it have been much easier if he had simply just told her, "I would rather have you stay but this is an opportunity that you shouldn't miss out on."? Instead he just kept telling her to go and "leave now."
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He was angry with her (for one reason or another or both). People generally aren't this eloquent and precise in their words when they're in a heated argument.
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We're not saying anything different, are we? I did say that Kyousuke isn't honest about his feelings for Kirino all the time. There were 2 opportunities in that argument where Kyousuke was calm enough to explain to Kirino what his true feelings were, yet he didn't.
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How do you know he was calm? Kirino was beating the ever-loving crap out of him!
I mean, let's not downplay this; this might have been her worst case of physically attacking her brother yet. If someone was hitting me like that, I wouldn't be in any mood to say something nice to them either.
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If Kyousuke is so aware of Kirino's tsuntsun antics by now, then he should know the truth.
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He's aware of her tsuntsun antics (how could he not be?
), but that doesn't mean he knows if they're a reflection of a real dislike of him, or if they're just a mask. I don't think that Kyousuke fully realizes that they're just a mask until he learns of Kirino's decision not to go to America.
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Why make things so much more difficult by being dishonest?
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Again, because he's pissed with her. People don't always do or say the most productive things when they're pissed off.
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I'm not saying you're wrong, but I believe my interpretation is just as plausible as yours. That's all 
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I understand where you and RenlentlessFlame are coming from. Again, I'm willing to go along with the idea that Kyousuke might be a little bit tsundere. But he's not as tsundere as Kirino is, imo.
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Originally Posted by Saturn Beaver
So, in a way, that's the final episode for Ore Imo...Well, knowing that this is an anime original ending and not the true ending, closing everything up in a life goes on way isn't really unexpected, really, and personally I don't have much complaints about it. I have the exact same thought as Kyousuke at seeing Kirino, it's like she's replaced by a clone or Skrull alien or something.
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Love the Marvel Comics reference.
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About the debate whether Kyousuke is a tsundere...Frankly, I'm still not sure myself. For me the greatest evidence supporting this is when he's talking with Saori this ep, blushing while denying. What's strange is this is Saori he's usually pretty open with, and it's not really that touchy anyway. Perhaps he's embarrassed if people know that he did all those things for Kirino not just due to his duty as a big brother, but because he cared about Kirino as well? But that should be bloody obvious seeing how much he sacrificed for her.
On the other hand, perhaps it's because I feel the exact same thing, but I find nothing strange in Kyousuke not readily accepting Kirino's dere and stays cautious. About when he finally knows that Kirino is about to leave to US, to me it seems that he also doesn't want Kirino to leave. However, he understands that it's a rare opportunity, something that at least part of Kirino wants, so he decided not to be selfish and push his own thoughts and genuinely wants Kirino to decide for herself what she wants. Sure, he's not 100% honest, but maybe it's because he doesn't want Kirino to be further confused at the last moment.
Only after Kirino got angry ("I don't like you and vice versa") does he snap. anger clouding his judgment and says something he doesn't really mean. If that constitutes as tsundere then I guess it is, but one thing for sure is that she's nowhere near as tsundere as his little sister.
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What I put into bold is the key for me. If Kirino doesn't say "You don't like me, and I don't like you!", then this scene plays out entirely differently here, imo. Just look at Kyousuke's face right after she says it. He is genuinely hurt by that, and it leads to him snapping.
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