Macross - Mecha, Weapons, and Technology

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Winchester

Sometimes it seems like Gundam maintenance crews build new robots out of the scraps of the old ones for lack of spare parts. How they manage to actually improve on the performance with each new model is one of the Great Mysteries.

Here's a question that's been bugging me for a bit - is the main gun on Battle Frontier different from previous models? Because the Frontier is the only ship so far to have the main gun open up in order to fire (neither Battle 7 or Battle Galaxy does this); and in the movie, the gun module seems to be huge in comparison to previous ships (it's fired like a bazooka, rather than a rifle/carbine). I just did a frame by frame advance of the relevant bits, and all three times where the Frontier's gun goes off, it fires from the big glowy bit that swings down from behind the regular gun ports.

Also, is there some kind of volume fudging going on with the transformation on the New Macross class? No one ever made a transformable toy, and I've only seen one fanmade 3D model of it, which I can't lay hands on to check... it looks to me like the butt of the rifle would conflict with the chest section, since the rifle appears to be longer than the "arm".

(attempting to build my own 3D mesh of the New Macross, and it's not going very well...)

SP

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossf/macross25.htm

I hope this would help. It does look like the gun is slightly longer than the arm. I assume the gun type is the same as the Macross Quarter, a larger versin of the Quarter's Quantum cannon.

- Tak

[Winchester]

Those are the pics I'm scratching my head over. How does the butt end of that rifle fit between and underneath the arms, when the arms are connected directly to the chest section?

Also, the Battle Frontier's cannon has a completely different set of effects from that of the Quarter - the big gun fires a wide, red-to-yellow single beam that's bigger across than the whole ship. The Quarter, on the other hand, fires something that comes out looking like a triple helix, that causes some kind of gravity distorsion after it passes (stuff that the original beam missed is sucked into the wake of it). Based on that alone, they can't be the same type of weapon.

The large gun turrets on the Quarter on the other hand may be the same type of weapon as the Battle Frontier's main gun - the effects look similar, if different in color and magnitude.

Cheers,

SP

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by Tak

Actually, the speed in which new machines are rolled out in Macross is quite astounding. The YF-19 & 21 were only in prototype phase from 2040, but deployed as soon as the following year.

Likewise, the VF-25 & 27 were supposedly still in prototype phase, but they are apparently already in mass-production as entire battlegroups of such machines already exist.

- Tak

What source says the VF-19 was in service in 2041? Macross 7 was the next anime series after Plus and there was a six year time skip between them (in universe, not IRL).

As for the VF-25, I kind of figure that it's in low rate initial production and will progress to full production after the kinks get worked out. (Fortunately for SMS the VF-25 seems to be a remarkably problem free design.)

Anyhow, I'm still hoping the YF-29 doesn't actually show up in the film, but given the amount of attention being paid to it in the lead up I should probably be prepared for the worst. Pity the VF-25 is getting reduced from an exceptional new design to something that is apparently badly flawed by that thing.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

What source says the VF-19 was in service in 2041? Macross 7 was the next anime series after Plus and there was a six year time skip between them (in universe, not IRL).

Macross 7 was actually launched in 2038, but the fleet was reinforced with VF-19s as soon as they were available

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/vf-19f.htm

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

As for the VF-25, I kind of figure that it's in low rate initial production and will progress to full production after the kinks get worked out. (Fortunately for SMS the VF-25 seems to be a remarkably problem free design.)

It seems to me with UN SPACY weapons development, new fighters are pretty much problem-free, this is probably due to Protoculture's blessings .

Their only problem being performance, how to push something to their limits...

- Tak

[John117xCortana]

Only monkey models though.

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by Tak

Macross 7 was actually launched in 2038, but the fleet was reinforced with VF-19s as soon as they were available

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/vf-19f.htm

It seems to me with UN SPACY weapons development, new fighters are pretty much problem-free, this is probably due to Protoculture's blessings .

Their only problem being performance, how to push something to their limits...

- Tak

That source says that the decision was made to adopt the VF-19 as the next main fighter in 2041 (the year after the events of Macross Plus). It's unclear when precisely it actually started to actually enter service, though apparently by 2045 there were enough of them for the Macross 7 fleet to be able to issue some to its elite pilots. (It seems I may have gotten my dates wrong when I mentioned a six year time skip.)

I'd also kind of figured that since SMS is doing testing of the VF-25 they've got really good tech support on hand. That and the VF-25s electromagnetic shifting is supposed to reduce maintenance compared to traditional mechanical shifting.

Another interesting consideration -I'd generally viewed it as a continuity error myself, but Ozma is wearing "25" patches on his jacket during the flashback at the beginning of Episode 17.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

That source says that the decision was made to adopt the VF-19 as the next main fighter in 2041 (the year after the events of Macross Plus).

Yes, but operational deployment did begin on 2041 as well. If I remember correctly from the original Macross VF-X, it mentioned the VF-19 was put into production as soon as project Supernova ended in 2040.

And we really cannot use conventional knowledge when considering the production capabilities of the UN SPACY. This is an expanding human empire on steriods. After all, we are talking about a political entity able to deliver over 30 Macross 7-sized colony ships into deep-space travel in a span of 8 years, never mind the hundreds of support vessels that came with each of such fleets.

Therefore, why would there be a reason to delay the deployment of the VF-19 especially when it was a proven success?

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

Another interesting consideration -I'd generally viewed it as a continuity error myself, but Ozma is wearing "25" patches on his jacket during the flashback at the beginning of Episode 17.

You are right That was pretty funny...

- Tak

[Lancel]

The YF-29's official name is Durandal. I now officially love the YF-29 and shall perch it up as my favorite Valkyrie of all time. Yes, it was really that easy. In case you are not aware (though I expect you to have by now already looked it up in Wikipedia), Durandal was the sword of Roland, the principle figure of the Matter of France. He served under Charlemagne and was chief of his paladins and is pretty much responsible for the existence of paladins as a class in various RPGs (he was basically the entire inspiration for paladins in the original DnD). By now you probably have a good guess why it was named this, given a certain other super Valkyrie named after a legendary sword in another literary cycle called the Matter of Britain (*cough* Excalibur *cough*).

I felt the need to spread this, so I thought this seemed appropriate as anything. No there aren't any spoilers of the movie except to say very briefly and as a very minor spoiler.

Spoiler for Wings of Goodbye:

Yes, the YF-29 is in the movie.

Anyway it appears to have retractable wings, a tornado pack turret mounted standard that deploys from the back, and its gunpod is a beam rifle. Don't know much otherwise, but damn that thing must be expensive to build. I don't think the YF-29 will replace the VF-25, it really doesn't seem like it was built to, more like it was built as a specialist or elite fighter, kind of like the VF-17s, VF-19s, and VF-22s were in Macross 7.

The VF-25's design always seemed slightly off to me, highly reliant on FAST packs for... pretty much everything. It could perform in an atmosphere, but has a certain lack of capabilities if it doesn't have a Tornado Pack. Namely the Super Pack seems to get jettisoned when entering an atmosphere, the armor pack can't actually fly in an atmosphere with gravity but actually hovers in GERWALK, and without a FAST the VF-25 apparently has NO missile bays except maybe a few external hardpoints. The design just seems very reliant on having the right mission package. It's a big reason why I ultimately like the VF-19 over it, plenty of missiles available regardless, that and I always liked the VF-19's bigger shield. I always felt the VF-25's was a bit puny. Tornado Pack VF-25 would be nice, though that seemed a bit bulky. VF-25 though was always nice for how utterly light and nimble it looks flying without any FASTs in an atmosphere.

YF-29 fixes a lot of that for me, more dakka in a sleek package with the options to jettison its FAST without feeling like you just jettisoned 70% of your available firepower (I mean really, the VF-25 only seems to have a gunpod and head lasers basic). Still a puny shield, but eh, can't win everything. The difference I'd say to me, visually, is that the VF-25 looks like an angel of goodness. YF-29 looks like an angel of death. I'll take that.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Lancel

YF-29 fixes a lot of that for me, more dakka in a sleek package with the options to jettison its FAST without feeling like you just jettisoned 70% of your available firepower (I mean really, the VF-25 only seems to have a gunpod and head lasers basic). Still a puny shield, but eh, can't win everything. The difference I'd say to me, visually, is that the VF-25 looks like an angel of goodness. YF-29 looks like an angel of death. I'll take that.

Plus, the Durandal is red...

Red ones goes fasta!?

But I think the Angel of Death however... was supposed to be the VF-27

I did fall in love with the Durandal, but that was after its battroid form was released to the general public.

The next Valkyrie? I bet it will be dubbed the Masamune..

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Eh, I am no fan of delta wings. I like the VF-25 best.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Eh, I am no fan of delta wings. I like the VF-25 best.

What?!

You no like the VF-19!?

HERETIC!!!

- Tak

[Lancel]

That is heresy.

Yes, red ones do go faster, and I agree, the Durandal's battroid mode is just badass. Heck, the next one might just be called Masamune, orrrr maybe it'll be called Grasscutter.

[SethEng]

Delta wings? The VF-19 and YF-29 don't have delta wings. Geeze, kids these days.

[magnuskn]

Hm? I was always under the impression that this was the name of those reverse wings. Anyway, me no likey.

And call someone younger than you a "kid", child. ^^

[SethEng]

Forward Swept Wings and I do what I want.

I'm not a fan of them either, especially on my Transforming Space Planes. Don't make any sense.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by SethEng

Forward Swept Wings

Ah, okay.

Hm, I wonder if Kawamori felt obligated to do them because of the Grumman X-29.

[SethEng]

It wouldn't surprise me. I think he like the FSW, but there really isn't that much use for them. At least for space planes, since the primary advantages of FSW would require an atmosphere. Better to have larger wings to hang more missiles off of in space.

At least swing wings make sense for transforming space planes, since they fold up. I'd loved to have seen more of the VF-4/VF-5000/YF-24 though. That's the kind of Transforming Space Plane design I like.

[Father Hentai]

VF-0 I am not a fan of thrusters attached into the wings.

[Lancel]

I forgot to correct that one the wings. Oh well. Personally I love forward swept wings. They do offer a large maneuvering advantage in an atmosphere though they do seem to typically be slightly smaller in area. Personally I'd prefer my space plane to be just as awesome in an atmosphere as it is in space, but it's not a deal breaker.

One thing I'd definitely want in my space planeis the VF-19's floor holo panels.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Ah, okay.

Hm, I wonder if Kawamori felt obligated to do them because of the Grumman X-29.

I think the VF-19 was inspired by the real-life SU-47

Spoiler for SU-27:

http://img819.imageshack.us/i/220pxs...47outlines.png

Spoiler for VF-19:

http://img222.imageshack.us/i/vf19splinter02.jpg

- Tak