[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Oh, it most certainly does

Mind giving me an example? I really don't see it.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Exactly how many questions did Claire ask at the end of E7, and how many puzzles were there in E8?

Some of the puzzles (Rudolf's, Kyrie's) were straight logic puzzles. Some (Kinzo's, Eva's) are open trick questions: they focus on the part that's difficult. Some (Rosa's, Maria's) are hidden trick questions: they try to get you to answer a question that isn't the one being asked.

Claire asked 18 questions in EP7, and there were 17 medal puzzles in EP8 plus Bern's mystery. There's also the trick/magic choice at the end, but I personally wouldn't count that as a puzzle.

Hm, didn't Ryukishi say something like "some people might not recognize the murders at first"?

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Oh, it most certainly does, but the cake slice thing was obviously a rigged game. What it does tell us, though, is that your odds of winning aren't altered by what you subjectively know; it can only confirm or deny when you open the box.

I disagree, sort of. Obviously that's true in the real world, but Featherine kept making a point of having Ange think "there's obviously no way that I could affect the contents of the cat box, but I still somehow feel that I can." The reason is that the contents of a cat box in a story are up to the author, and the author can use whatever criteria to decide them that she wants.

For instance, in a story, it's totally reasonable to say that an event X happened according to random chance, even if you deliberately wrote it that way. So Ange can pick a cake slice "at random" in piece terms and still be "certainly correct" in author terms. But think about what that means when, instead of dictating a pre-arranged plot, the author decides to let the pieces act naturally, as Featherine apparently does for Ange. In that case, a piece's beliefs and actions might very well influence the author to change the contents of a cat box for her, even if from the piece's perspective "there was always only one truth in the box."

[AuraTwilight]

Mind giving me an example? I really don't see it.

Well, for one thing, Bern and her bullshit.

disagree, sort of. Obviously that's true in the real world, but Featherine kept making a point of having Ange think "there's obviously no way that I could affect the contents of the cat box, but I still somehow feel that I can." The reason is that the contents of a cat box in a story are up to the author, and the author can use whatever criteria to decide them that she wants.

Oh, yea, in the narratives, sure. "In Umineko" sort of implies that entire possible metaverse. Of course probability doesn't exist in the godlike machinations of an author.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Well, for one thing, Bern and her bullshit.

Bern said pretty clearly in arc 6 that "whenever something appeared like a miracle, it was because of someone's design".

Bernkastel, the witch who knows "miracles" doesn't exist.

Really, I don't see it.

[AuraTwilight]

It's really irrelevant; I apparently misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Besides, who gives a shit what Bern's opinions are? She's completely dissociated from reality and is borderline-solipsistic.

[ferthepoet]

can anyone explain what's this about 17 medals? I only got 16, is there a way to get Battlers and Beato quizzes before Ange falls asleep?

[AuraTwilight]

You can get 17 medals if you cheat and edit your save file.

[ferthepoet]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

For your first question, I believe Ryuukishi was paralleling arc 6's cheese question.
The answer written on the back of the question card was "3". Battler and Erika reached "1".
Kyrie/Rudolph/Battler is the answer "written on the back of the question card".

Everyone cannot be a culprit, because culprits cannot die yet have to commit murder to be considered culprit. There's other possibilities that works tho, including Yasu.

For your other question, it's supposed to be "Rosa/Genji/Hideyoshi/Eva" of the FT + "Krauss/Natsuhi" that makes up six victims.

But if everyone's on it nobody could be dead, at the most we need 6 people to be death because of the first twilight red but using Erika logic we could say whoever decided to fake deaths in the first twilight had killed 6 people before rokkenjma, which in the case of Kyrie and Hideyoshi is even plausible.

One more question, Bern said the seals couldn't be broken, however Rudolf or Kyrie would have had to break them to get out of the mansion for the final scene, what's up with that? are we to imply the game ended when we gave an answer so it doesn't count anymore that's a bit of a cheat

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You can get 17 medals if you cheat and edit your save file.

No, you can get 17 normally (since there are 18 people minus Battler). The cheat prize is for 18 or more.

[ferthepoet]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

No, you can get 17 normally (since there are 18 people minus Battler). The cheat prize is for 18 or more.

But Eva does not give a medal since she is teaming with you

[AuraTwilight]

I'm pretty sure she does since she gives you a riddle. However, Beatrice doesn't give a riddle either...lesse.

Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Jessica, Eva, Hideyoshi, George, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, Nanjo, Genji, Gohda, Kumasawa, Shannon, Kanon. 17. Yea, alright. I miscounted initially.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by ferthepoet

But if everyone's on it nobody could be dead, at the most we need 6 people to be death because of the first twilight red but using Erika logic we could say whoever decided to fake deaths in the first twilight had killed 6 people before rokkenjma, which in the case of Kyrie and Hideyoshi is even plausible.

One more question, Bern said the seals couldn't be broken, however Rudolf or Kyrie would have had to break them to get out of the mansion for the final scene, what's up with that? are we to imply the game ended when we gave an answer so it doesn't count anymore that's a bit of a cheat

Well that could work I guess, but there's still the problem of the red that says the culprit of the first twilight killed 6 people. Hard to dodge that while keeping everyone alive, but it's twisted logic so why not in the end?

About seals, I guess I'll have to more makeup a theory but... My understanding is not that the seals "keep them inside" as much as it's a statement that "so far, the seal hasn't been broken, thus they cannot have left". Naturally this imply they can leave anytime, just that they hadn't yet.



Unrelated but concerning the 17 medals, the whole thing's a bit far right now but I seem to remember that Jessica and George's puzzle gave 2 metals. 16 Puzzles, but 17 medals.

[ferthepoet]

Well the thing is at least in the English translation Bern said the seals will not be broken yet for the final scene of Battler/Kyrie/Rudolf killing everybody at the end to be possible they must have been broken.

[UsagiTenpura]

By saying that I think she was only ruling out in our reasoning that "seal was intact at X moment but it could later be broken". It's not a red that has an actual bearing on the progression of the story, which is a separate thing from our reasoning in finding the culprit.

[ferthepoet]

However the fact that the seals can't be broken seems to be a big point..... if the seal could be broken at any time then for example Battler/Kyrie would be enough for the solution, you need a third culprit because someone must stay hidden in the room. If the seal could be broken at any time the same person who hid in the room could just walk out of the mansion and kill the others with the help of battler

[AuraTwilight]

Dude, it's ducttape; you can break that shit trying to open a door. The only thing tapeseals actually do is make sure no one leaves without leaving a sign. Therefor Kyrie and Rudolf had to keep playing dead until Battler had the survivors dwindled and cornered.

[Leafsnail]

The red does say that "all of the seals... will not be broken" though. Which means that even though it's possible to break the seals, noone did, and the garden scene is contradictory if this red is taken at face value (only one of Rudolf and Kyrie should be there). I guess you could get around this by saying the red only applied to the game itself, and not stuff that happened afterwards.

[AuraTwilight]

Well then I guess that's what happened; after all, time and events don't take place unless they're mandated by the author.

[Domiano]

Confused on one point of the culprit game:
Couldn't George have killed Maria (or Battler if George and Maria were together) after the 8th twilight?
That would have allowed for them to be the child culprits.
Their was nothing that required you to have committed a murder before the game 'ended' to be a culprit.

[UsagiTenpura]

@ ferthepoet
I sorta get the feeling you're making this more complex then it is. Think of the red truth as a "rule of the game" and of Rudolph/Kyrie's final appearance as "an endgame cutscene".

@ Domiano
Why need murders after when the story tells us directly we can set that rule aside by having them murder before?