Under what circumstances is anime accepted by a more mainstream audience?

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

In other words, even if some modern anime became mainstream (beyond the shounen/kids stuff that arguably already is to some degree), most of them will probably never join anime forums to discuss anime -- it'll just be that show/movie they watched, and they'll discuss it wherever they discuss everything else. The way most people here experience/partake in anime will certainly never become mainstream.

But I don't even think that needs to happen. If it does become something people can casually watch and perhaps casually bring up in a conversation without fear of incredulity, then that would be what many people strive for. Anime is inherently a lonely hobby because of this, and only through more mainstream acceptance can it perhaps be more than this for many people.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

But I don't even think that needs to happen. If it does become something people can casually watch and perhaps casually bring up in a conversation without fear of incredulity, then that would be what many people strive for. Anime is inherently a lonely hobby because of this, and only through more mainstream acceptance can it perhaps be more than this for many people.

I wasn't trying to say it needed to happen (or that anyone else was arguing that either), only pointing out that the sort of anime experience we have isn't a "norm" we should expect or strive for.

If there is hope for a wider knowledge of anime, it's probably with today's kids who are growing up with on-demand/streaming as the norm, because this helps put anime on a more even playing field (and less subject to the "tyranny" of gatekeepers). But even then, it's hard to imagine these little 2D-animated shows with budgets of a couple million dollars at most competing in terms of advertising and presence with what places like Hollywood can do. And I don't foresee there being any shortage of attempts by Hollywood and the like to fill people's time with market-researched, well-publicized content designed just so people will bring it up in water cooler conversations. If there are elements they can take from anime that will increase that appeal, I expect them to grab those and incorporate them (and in fact you could say that many of the teen-targeted cartoons of the last decade took some inspiration from anime). So I guess personally I just don't see it ever happening. The competition for attention is playing an entirely different game, and they aren't going away any time soon. But I think there's still plenty of room for success within a niche, particularly with the Internet as a distribution medium.

[cyth]

From my experience, the anime fans from around where I live that were secluded to anime forums, for the longest time all of us thought that our hobby was extremely niche. As it turned out though, anime had slowly built up huge appeal outside our circles, we just didn't notice because we were too preoccupied with following torrents and cooped up in our own little discussion world. Video streaming and manga reading sites raised a whole new generation of fans that isn't particularly fond of discussing anime online, they rather do that among the fans they personally know themselves. The discrepancy between con/event attendance and online participation is mind-boggling where I live.

[Archon_Wing]

Bleh, going mainstream makes it prone to mandatory censorship, since some people at least in my country are going to freak out at the slightest amounts of anything that would be controversial, since you know, influences from other countries are evil and will corrupt the children. Of course, violence is ok and nudity is evil, so... unfortunately I'm afraid few other places share these twisted notions.

There is only going to be a small fraction of anime that will ever fit in the mainstream of well... anywhere. If it explodes though, it stands a better chance.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Bleh, going mainstream makes it prone to mandatory censorship, since some people at least in my country are going to freak out at the slightest amounts of anything that would be controversial, since you know, influences from other countries are evil and will corrupt the children. Of course, violence is ok and nudity is evil, so... unfortunately I'm afraid few other places share these twisted notions.

There's been "worse" mainstream on TV. But censoring an anime in hopes of selling it to kids makes as much sense as airing Family Guy on a Saturday morning kid's block. The first reaction is what.

...What kind of mainstream are we going for again?

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto

There's been "worse" mainstream on TV. But censoring an anime in hopes of selling it to kids makes as much sense as airing Family Guy on a Saturday morning kid's block. The first reaction is what.

...What kind of mainstream are we going for again?

Well, we're not even talking about it on that level.

But considering say, an edit of the movie "Casino" on Cable TV being an utter joke since literally the entire fucking movie was bleeped out, I just don't really give a damn.

This really isn't about me being a pretentious hipster here. It's more like, well, shit like this happens on its own. If people aren't willing to accept it, then nothing will happen. Granted, it works both ways where the other side needs to market it effectively over. It's not like they haven't tried before with stuff such as the Big O and Trigun. My view is that I live in a country that has little respect for other cultures, particularly Asian ones, of which will only appeal to people's sensibilities if it's chopped up into little inoffensive pieces so it can be consumed in the most superficial ways. Until that changes, well, fuck.

And most anime isn't even mainstream among Japan for adults either, so....

Until then, I will have no use for second-rate, censored renditions on my TV.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I don't think it's right to lump romance and comedy together when talking about gateway shows.

Well, romance and comedy frequently go together in anime.

But certainly, there are some shows that have comedy but don't have much (if any) romance. So we can talk about those shows if you want.

And to be clear, if you're targeting a specific person (such as one's significant other) in the hopes of leading that person into being an anime fan, then what's most important is that specific person's personal taste. Let's say someone as a real taste for dark humor. Then something like Jinrui might well prove to be that individual's gateway anime.


But I'm thinking more along the lines of "General Western Audience". Questions like "Which anime show would help spread anime the most if it was airing on Adult Swim?", or in our country of Canada, "Which anime show would help spread anime the most if it was airing on YTV, or on a general entertainment channel?"

Now, I don't particularly care if anime goes mainstream or not. I see pros and cons either way. And for the most part, I don't mind having a relatively private/internet-based interest to compliment my much more public/RL-based interest (pro hockey).

But if we're going to talk about anime going mainstream, then I think it's helpful to be very focused and realistic about this. I think we need to look beyond just our own personal favorites. We should think about what types of content is most popular in our respective social circles right now, and which anime shows could most easily penetrate into those circles. Now, to be fair, your social circles may well be different than mine. So it's possible that pure comedy is more popular amongst the people you know than amongst the people I know.

I'm not a woman, so I'm focusing more on the young adult male demographic that I'm most familiar with. And the types of entertainment that I hear my male coworkers talk the most about are action-packed games (Halo, Call of Duty, Assassin's Creed), Game of Thrones, pro sports, and action-packed movies. So what anime shows can best appeal to folks into this sort of content? Attack on Titan seems almost tailor-made for this. SAO is reasonably close. Tiger and Bunny might appeal to the superhero fans. Sports anime seems to be on the decline lately, so that's out (although I'd probably keep Little Busters! in mind as a good show to use if I went to "delve deeper" with a particular newcomer to anime who is into baseball).

RadiantDreamer's "My wife watches anime based on eroge, yuri, and otaku-ism" is a good food for thought article on the subject:
http://radiantdreamer.net/featured/m...and-otaku-ism/

Honestly, while reading that, I'm struck by how much it supports my position on this.

RadiantDreamer mentioned how he introduced his wife to the King of Harem RomComs - Love Hina! By his own account, it backfired. Badly.

So what did he switch to? A show actually intended for female audiences - Card Captor Sakura. That had some measure of success.

What did he switch to then? Chobits and Azumanga Daioh. Like RD, I'm honestly a bit disappointed that AD didn't work better than it did.

So after his wife lost interest in anime, what did RD try next?

A show actually aimed at women - Nodame Cantabile. And that's the show that really won his wife over it seems.

After that, he introduced her to a wide variety of shows. Some didn't work well. Some did. Some had mixed reactions. Lucky Star was a show that resonated with her, and things seem to be going well from there.

(One of my girlfriend's colleagues actually attended the Madoka move #1 screening in Vancouver a couple months back after my girlfriend said she was going. She loved it, though I don't get the impression it's resulted in a broader interest in anime (another thing I don't think is necessarily discussed a lot when people talk about gateway anime).)

I think it's important to follow up a gateway anime with either another like it, or something that goes a bit deeper in but where you can see the links.

Let's say, for example, somebody watches Shakugan no Shana and really liked Shana. Well, time to crank out the KugRie Tsundere anime shows.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But I'm thinking more along the lines of "General Western Audience". Questions like "Which anime show would help spread anime the most if it was airing on Adult Swim?", or in our country of Canada, "Which anime show would help spread anime the most if it was airing on YTV, or on a general entertainment channel?"

How about asking this: do these people trade random, offbeat youtube videos?

If so, my experience is you have some chance to hook them with offbeat anime comedies. "Big entertainment" (meaning: Halo/Game of Thrones/pro sport/action movie) is not the only thing that geeks are into.

So yes, many non-initiates can enjoy Attack on Titan, and I speak from experience on that one. But I also speak from experience that non-initiates often like stuff like School Rumble.

Honestly, while reading that, I'm struck by how much it supports my position on this.

RadiantDreamer mentioned how he introduced his wife to the King of Harem RomComs - Love Hina! By his own account, it backfired. Badly.

Maybe it wasn't clear from my post, by Love Hina is not what I'd consider a male-oriented anime rom-com that is likely to appeal to women. Toradora, on the other hand, is. The reaction of Radiant's wife to Love Hina and Toradora is about what I would have expected.

Toradora would hardly be the first male-oriented show to get marketted to women in the west either. Funimation marketed Moon Phase to women, despite the original manga have a fairly noticeable lolicon subtext that was reduced, not eliminated in the anime. Did it work? Hard to say, but I recently discovered that one my my regular models on the local cosplay scene cosplayed Hazuki when she was 13, which I consider kind of ironic.

One other dimension that I think is worth noting here: I don't think Radiant's wife is a geek.