2009-11-04, 02:57 | Link #2861 | |||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Everyone should understand everything by now, but I haven't met or heard of anyone that has a single theory that explains everything. I think Ryukishi is lying. Again. Quote:
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Ideally we should have an epiphany like Battler did, but... I haven't met anyone who has. Yes, yes, Devil's Proof, but you'd think the Internet would have heard of it by now. |
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2009-11-04, 03:07 | Link #2862 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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As he's shown time and again when describing the blue text, the point isn't finding a single "true" theory, it's all about making as many guesses as you can think of and hoping one hits. Some theories will have more support from the text than others, and he's repeatedly mentioned that he's included hints to help you confirm whether your theory is more likely or not. It could be the reason we haven't found a more satisfying answer is that we haven't looked hard enough. I don't think the new info in EP5 has been completely sorted through yet.
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2009-11-04, 03:11 | Link #2863 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Even if we have theories that explain everything, if we don't have the "why", we don't know if they're true or not. And if we don't know for certain, they might as well be false... And that doesn't explain why he just implied that the mystery should be fully solvable at this point, i.e. we should be at the same stage as Battler. Like I said, without "why" our theories are meaningless. Until everything clicks we have nothing. This is a very likely possibility... We need a Society Computer. |
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2009-11-04, 03:29 | Link #2864 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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Also, there are plenty of excellent mystery novels where the motive isn't truly revealed until the end...including Umineko's favorite, "And then there were none". By the way, Ryuukishi never said we had to "know what Battler knows", nor was he specific about what Battler has actually learned. Nowhere did he say that there should be a single answer for us to find that is obviously the truth. From the way he describes it, it looks like even Battler has a ways to go before he can prove that he's really understood everything. Ryuukishi isn't lying, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't closely check everything he says. Edit: Oh, and as proof he isn't lying, he spent the whole last quarter of the interview talking about the trusting relationship that's needed between the writer and the reader. He's not going to say something like that and then flat out lie in the same interview.
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2009-11-04, 03:38 | Link #2865 | ||||||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Agatha Christie's philosophy on mysteries was that, yes, the most likely person WAS always the killer. (Poirot kept mocking famous mystery novels of his time, specifically Conan Doyle's work.) The trick with the Poirot novels was in obscuring who was the most likely person. I think a similar trick is at work here. Quote:
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It's hardly a mystery as it is so much a suspense novel. Quote:
And I'd expect that Battler hasn't really understood the truth, like Jan-Poo suggested. Too easy. Quote:
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I fail to consider, say, Ep3 an example of a trusting relationship between writer and reader. The omniscient narration is lying in that episode... |
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2009-11-04, 06:36 | Link #2866 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Battler can't use golden truth to death against Erika, because then, Erika wins. His situation right now is the same at the end of EP5, when he can't spam the truth because that will give Bernkastel the victory, that's why Bern wasn't afraid of him when he "resurrected". But then he used a fake theory to crush Erika's one. Until Beato comes back, Battler can't state the truth. Battler wants to end his and Beato's game, not this new one. But he must make Erika surrender to do that. Quote:
It's an episode made to save the people who after EP2, lost their ways. |
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2009-11-04, 07:59 | Link #2867 | ||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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moved from translation thread:
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I hope this is not the case with Ryukishi, but I'm prepared to something like that, I've just a had a little taste of that with the epitaph. Quote:
Also those that were showed as "hints" at the end were simply ridiculous except one. Let us just hope the similarities with Umineko will not go beyond the secluded island closed circle and the announced serial murder. Quote:
If Erika will try to win using the truth, why Battler should have anything against that? The reason Battler strongly opposed Erika in Ep5 was because Erika was trying to frame the wrong person. It should be noted that Battler didn't try to deny Erika's reasoning regardless of them being true. He wasn't even really against her at all in the beginning. To think that Battler would oppose her just because he doesn't want her to win, is very childish and absolutely not like Battler. Also Ryukishi has stated without any doubt that Battler's objective hasn't changed at all. He will try to expose the truth, he will not cover it. I think Ep6 will show Battler trying to expose the truth and Erika trying to frame again another innocent.
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2009-11-04, 08:18 | Link #2868 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Of course, as Ryuukishi said, even if Battler is the Game-Master, that don't means that he is anti-mystery now. I think that in EP6, Battler will construct a truth based mystery-game to crush Erika. At least, that's what they implied at EP5 end. |
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2009-11-04, 08:37 | Link #2869 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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But imho the only reason Battler used fake theories in Ep5 was because he wanted to save Natsuhi, not because he wanted Erika to lose. He had no other way to achieve that because the game was very unfair. If he could I have no doubt that he would have used the truth to defeat Erika and not a lie.
Now that he achieved that goal and he's the gamemaster, I don't understand why he should try to cover the truth. He already got the game back. Erika is his enemy as long as she tries to frame innocent people. But if she is going to find the truth, why Battler would want to stop her? I think your premise is that the game become BattlerVSErika so the two must be necessarily in opposition. But before Battler woke up, it was Erika who was supposed to be the gamemaster, and there wasn't really any opponent then, and yet the game was supposed to start anyway. This means this game isn't necessarily a 1vs1 game. If the game could exist regardless of Battler's presence, the game can exist regardless of Erika's presence. Erika's presence in Battler's game is just a nuisance not a necessary element. That's why I think Battler will pursue his objective regardless of Erika.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2009-11-04 at 09:02. |
2009-11-04, 10:54 | Link #2871 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I don't think there is a problem here. Battler arrived to the solution through his logic and reasoning, not because of chance or a sixth sense.
Ryukishi said that all the elements to solve the mystery were available since the end of episode4, so it can be assumed that Battler made use of those, and probably he was helped by some memories which we aren't fully aware of. Nothing in the sixth rule prevents the detective from realizing all the truth in a single instant.
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2009-11-04, 11:23 | Link #2872 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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The last image of EP5 is Battler sprite clashing with Erika sprite. They already said that Battler will be the one in EP6 to construct the game, Erika wants to face him and kill him and he needs to eliminate the external factors, Erika and Bern. Imho, he's far for got the game back. A game is made of two opponents, and Beato is not here. That's a point here in EP5. And no, Lambda-Bern hijack is not a fair game, so the whole "I Erika the Gamemaster Witch of truth will solve the next EPs without an opponent" is not valid. EP6 will probably be a Battler VS Erika. At least, that's what it seems more logical with the stuff they said at the end of EP5. Last edited by sento; 2009-11-04 at 11:35. |
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2009-11-04, 11:37 | Link #2873 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Since Bern said that it can be assumed that Bern plans to beat him with something different than the truth.
Also if Bern was assuming Battler would try to create a fake game, the fact that he knows the truthwouldn't matter. No I think Bern is taking for granted that Battler will try to create a game with the purpose of disclosing the truth. However I really do not understand why Bern doesn't like that. Why Bern wants to win by framing innocent people? It seems she only care about denying magic and witches, but at the same time she doesn't want the real truth to come out in the open. Another thing that is hard to explain is how should it difficult for Battler to win considering the situation. He can create a game where the truth is apparent, but I guess that's what will make Episode6 interesting. How will Bern and Erika manage to find proof to back their false theories? Anyway as you can see I do not disagree with the fact that we will see Battler vs Erika, however I do not think that Battler telling the truth will help Erika, because Erika has already proven in Ep5 that she doesn't care about the truth. Battler will state the truth, and Erika will try to cover it with lies. However I don't have any clue on how this could happen. If Battler can use red he can deny any theory Erika will make without worrying about anything.
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2009-11-04, 11:50 | Link #2874 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Well, I don't think that Bern and Erika want to win by framing innocent people... But it's easier, so they don't care. I see them as Ryuukishi's way to say that "without love, you can't see the truth".
If by pure chance Erika and Bern find the truth, I think that they will use it to win, but as they can't find it, deshumanizing mystery aproach stuff ensues. I don't think that Bern plans to beat him with something different than the truth... I think that she doesn't care about the truth in the first place, and only wants to win at any cost. So, for Bern, truth it's secondary. |
2009-11-04, 11:59 | Link #2875 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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However it is a fact that Battler said in red that Natsuhi wasn't the culprit. Even if Dlanor disallowed him to make use of that red truth, that red truth was said and there was no doubt it was true. Erika and Bern simply decided to disregard it. Not only that, they didn't seem to be surprised by it, as if they knew already.
Anyway let us assume that Bern and Erika will try to win with the truth and accusing the right person (which I doubt because this would be the 6th game, and the culprit won't be revealed yet, not even in a theory), I don't get why Battler should try to stop them. It is true that what Battler wants is to win in a way that is satisfactory for Beatrice. But isn't finding the truth the core itself of such a satisfactory win? Or rather... why Battler needs to waste time with Erika? This is a game between Beatrice and Battler, Erika has nothing to do with it. Which is why I think Battler will create this game regardless of her and he will only fight against her because she will get in the way.
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2009-11-04, 12:03 | Link #2876 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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I think that he will face Erika because... This mystery was for him, not for Erika, and now, Bern, Lambda and Erika are "destroying" it. And Erika is framing his family too! He have enough reasons.
Beato made the game because she wanted to him, Ushiromiya Battler, to solve it. |
2009-11-04, 12:07 | Link #2877 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Yeah but why Battler needs to waste time with Erika? Can't he just solve the riddle? Actually as Ryukishi said, he already solved it. Now he only needs to create a game and prove his own theories. That's what Ryukishi himself said.
To do that I don't get why Erika is necessary... at all. If Erika was the gamemaster yeah that would make sense. But since she isn't, what's her role except being a nuisance? Quote:
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2009-11-04, 12:10 | Link #2878 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Erika's presence is apparently a big hint, along with Dlanor. I'm sure she has some use. |
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2009-11-04, 12:13 | Link #2880 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Well yeah, but the problem is that at the end of EP5, Battler didn't win against Erika, as Lambda said. He only defeated her theory, but not totally destroyed it.
So, Erika's is still a player. That's what they implied at the end of EP5. |
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