2012-06-10, 10:18 | Link #29101 | ||
Senior Member
|
Quote:
I think we are still trying to hard to rationalize the relationship between the events of Umineko and a supposed real world. Ryûkishi basically wrote himself into a corner when he made Ange a character in EP4 but let her die as well. This basically meant that he would have to fictionalize all the events or he would basically prove the existence of the supernatural as Ange seemed to have been a major character from the very beginning. The problem with fictionalizing the events though is that we can't make them as fictional as the events on Rokkenjima or they could be considered false (as they are by some around here) because nobody except Ange, who is apparently dead , would have the necessary agencies to know of certain aspects (her aunt Kasumi's hatred of her for example). This is why I think we should consider the term "reality" and "fiction" more losely, especially when it comes to Chiru. If we consider the end of EP8, even Ange's journey is a giant cat box. We never see the end of any of her journeys...heck, the last we see of her in EP4 is her apparently mercy killing her aunt and then vanishing from the face of the earth. BUT, this happened to Ange in every of her arcs, didn't it? EP4: supposedly went to Rokkenjima and vanished EP6: supposedly went to Rokkenjima and vanished EP8: (Trick): supposedly went to Rokkenjima and vanished EP8: (Magic): met with Okonogi and vanished In the last version we know that she simply changed her name and used the connections with Okonogi (and apparently the Yakuza if that is not overanalyzing some implications) to make Ushiromiya Ange simply dissappear. Considering how competent the police forces in Ryûkishi's universe usually are, the only thing that actually implies that the last version is what happened is (a) Yukari's overall demeanor and (b) the fact that it follows the magic ending. As far as we know EP4 could be true and Amakusa pulled a huntsman on Yukari and let her run off...Okonogi seems to be reasonable enough to just let her go if she doesn't demand or tell anything. 1998 is just as much part of the mystery as 1986 is and even more the question towards what is real and how far reality is affected by fantasy is part of it too. Regarding my own answer, I think that every story we see has a similar chance to be true (until disproven by the narrative itself) and that it really depends on how you want to read certain parts. This may be considered a cop-out answer, but somehow I find it genius. EDIT: Quote:
She basically said that she now understood how the witch (talking about Bernkastel) was able to say that her brother was dead. When she met with Hachijô Tôya she had to learn that the man she wanted to return actually did die in 1986 in a way, at least in the same way that Meta-Beatrice died between EP5 and 6. He would never be the Battler she said goodbye to in 1986 even with him remembering their times together (which he does). This basically proves that at least her internal struggle with Bernkastel during EP8 was actually witnessed by her....though as I said above, I think reality is something that should be considered fluid in something like Umineko. OT: Has anybody ever read City of Glass by Paul Auster?! Somehow I always have to think of it when reading Umineko. |
||
2012-06-10, 11:17 | Link #29102 | ||||
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Being picky to the point I saddly am makes it so that I haven't watched TV, a movie, or an anime, in nearly two years now (reading novels). Quote:
@ Wanderer : It's amazing if that was actually true. I don't know if it is or not, but iono when over a year after the final release of a story you still post daily about how Ryuukishi "fucked things up" or trying to "objectively discredit Umineko/Ryuukishi" what am I supposed to believe? |
||||
2012-06-10, 12:30 | Link #29103 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
Quote:
In EP4 Ange saw stakes killing the Sumadera goons, but we all pretty much concluded that it was just Ange's fantasy and that in reality it was Amakusa shooting them with a sniper rifle (theory that was practically confirmed later). I see no reason to suddenly dismiss the idea that Ange is delusional and believe that the metaworld must necessarily be real because she thinks so. Quote:
This is a feeling that I believe it is shared by a few people here. And I think everyone would be kinda pissed at me if I were to challenge them with an impossible riddle only to tell them later that it has no solution. Quote:
__________________
|
|||
2012-06-10, 14:59 | Link #29104 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: United Kingdom.
|
@Usagi
Sadly, The people who are most disappointed by the answer are the ones who desperately want a clear answer and therefore discuss this within the speculations thread. I love Umineko for many of the things it has done, but when a particular thing doesn't make as much sense as we desire we tend to rationalise it as much as we can (just like Battler) even when said rationalising doesn't make us happier. And when one spends around a hundred hours on a series, they expect an answer with a fair amount of detail. I think about Umineko almost every day, I believe most of the people who post (or just watch) on this thread do the same, I for one am far too inquisitive for my own good! ... And a big question is, what does the meta world do which a more mundane portrayal couldn't afford? There are so many (somewhat confusing) parallels between Battler and Kinzo, especially in the meta scenes that it must have a clear function other than to simply leave a fantasy vs mystery debate which Ryukishi has very successfully made redundant.
__________________
Last edited by Uberzaki; 2012-06-10 at 15:01. Reason: typos |
2012-06-10, 15:24 | Link #29105 | ||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
||
2012-06-10, 16:20 | Link #29106 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: PA
|
Well I find myself having one other theory though it's probably completely wrong. Though I feel like we've been trying to find a human culprit so long that we may have overlooked the fact that maybe...
That there is no human culprit. It seems to me that Eva was trying to solve the epitaph so that she could find the gold but wasn't able to get far on her own. Thus when Battler came to the island and knowing Battler's love of mysteries. Eva enlisted his help to solve the epitaph. Battler not being able to resist a good mystery and of course not being able to refuse his aunt agreed and the two set off to solve it after everyone had seperated after the adults met. Now I doubt one of the adults could've easily smuggled a bomb to the island so if there is a culprit then it's not a human one. Remember that the island was built on a WW2 base. That must mean that maybe during the mansions construction they missed an underground bunker full of live ammunition or maybe a live bombshell that for some reason hadn't gone off, but then something triggered either of those to explode causing the accident and killing everyone except Eva and Battler who by then had made it to the underground passage. Since lets face it if the explosion changed the terrain that much afterwards there's no way it's some homemade bomb. Eva and Battler then decided to split up. Probably under the excuse that it'd be faster to find a way off the island that way. Eva sent Battler the opposite way of Kuwadorian so she could go there herself to find the gold. Since she had a pretty good idea it was there by that time. Battler of course found the submarine base and escaped while Eva waited for rescue on the island. |
2012-06-10, 16:49 | Link #29107 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't see why not, at least up to before the logic error. It was basically said to be bad form for the Gamemaster to change his story part way through (however they may be able to do it well enough to be undetected). Although, by the time of the logic error that "bad form" was what the game had become. |
||||
2012-06-10, 16:53 | Link #29108 | |
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2012-06-10, 19:02 | Link #29109 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: PA
|
Well honestly I felt cheated too kinda. I mean say what you will that the journey is more fun than the conclusion, but I also like things to make sense, and a lot of my lost in interest when it came to Umineko stemmed from how things stopped making sense after a while. I mean when I look at Higurashi to me it made total sense after Minagoroshi hen. Instead with Umineko I feel like it's just a maze of plot holes that Ryukishi pretty much got trapped in, and is probably still trapped in a dead end at the very center of the maze.
A good writer knows where their story is going, and a good writer doesn't say they could give all the answers so the story makes sense, but won't because they've written themselves so far into a corner that they decide to rely on the fans to make their own ending. It seems to me Ryukishi did have an ending planned but that ending became irrelevant at some point, and instead of trying to fix that problem Ryukishi instead decided to be lazy and leave it all in a cat box to troll the fans. I mean it's really no surprise that people who read a murder mystery series want to know the answer at the end of the strings of tragedy that have been woven throughout the course of the story. That's the best part! |
2012-06-10, 19:12 | Link #29110 | ||
Senior Member
|
Quote:
Quote:
On top of that there is the first tea party, where we were essentially challenged (by Beatrice through Battler) to try and deny the witch until the very end, and to try and come up with a reasonable explanation for a human culprit. Honestly, I never felt like what happened on Prime was within the scope of the story, but I can understand how people would be upset that Ryukishi would talk so much about it and then never give out the conclusion. Kind of reminds me of Ikuko, speaking to those people from the Mystery writing contest at one point in the story, saying she would gladly give them her manuscript, but under a different name and submitted legitly. If they could find it, they were more then welcome to use it. The situation is a little different, but I can see a few parallels. |
||
2012-06-11, 07:17 | Link #29111 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
as TwilightsCall said, let us not forget that the single murder mysteries of each game were never properly explained, not just the truth of Rokkenjima Prime.
Albeit those are almost 90% solved, I would have still liked to see a proper explanation inside the story. But at any rate, Ryuukishi clearly issued a challenge to the readers Quote:
Besides he implied in the interviews that he was expecting us to reason about Rokkenjima Prime. http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=207253 Quote:
__________________
|
||
2012-06-11, 11:49 | Link #29112 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
So basically I'd argue the two big mysteries in where Umineko may have gone are Land and End. Those are points of departure for the series. Whether anything would've actually been better we really have no business saying, though; the same plot issues and narrative constructions may have existed no matter what. However, I have to think that if Land was different, Alliance would've been totally different too in some fashion, and that would have made the path into Chiru different as well. It's difficult to criticize a work that doesn't exist. That's why I wish he'd release his notes or outline on Land or have made Our Confession about the writing of Land. It may well be that Land and Banquet were substantially similar in many ways and much of the to-do about it changing the series is unwarranted because it only really changed the individual puzzles. We don't know. That's why I want to know. Anyway Prometheus coming out gave me a totally different idea about how things must've gone down on Rokkenjima: Spoiler for SCIENCE FICTION!:
__________________
|
|
2012-06-11, 12:21 | Link #29113 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
|
Quote:
I always figured Ange's part of EP4 was just meant to provide supplementary information to help us solve the actual mystery, myself. Actually, I think most people thought the same. The more I think about it, the more it seems like the introduction of Hachijo in Dawn was the turning point for the series, with how it ushered in the concept of Rokkenjima-Prime. I wonder if Ryukishi really intended it that way from the start...to be honest, rereading the earlier episodes and interviews seriously makes me think he didn't. But we'll never know, unfortunately. |
||
2012-06-11, 13:01 | Link #29114 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
But that's still information that comes from Rokkenjima Prime. How does it make sense to reason about what is said regarding Rokkenjima Prime in order to understand the gameboards and then forgetting that a Rokkenjima Prime exists and that there is a mystery even there?
__________________
|
2012-06-11, 13:50 | Link #29116 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Kylon's author theory was in it's beginning stages after episode 4 was translated and before Episode 5 was translated. I'm also pretty sure Rokkenjima Prime was an idea before episode 6 too. But episode 6 made it popular when the episode brought up the forgeries and confirmed a lot of the author theory.
__________________
|
2012-06-11, 14:16 | Link #29117 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
We were definitely kicking around Author Theory and the notion of a Prime universe around ep4. I have no idea who first called it Rokkenjima-Prime, although it sounds like something I'd make up. "Author Theory" was proposed by somebody else and named by them, I believe, or named by someone commenting on their theory.
I actually felt pretty good about that one by ep6 as that pretty much all but confirmed it, and there was a large contingent here who felt the same way.
__________________
|
2012-06-11, 14:40 | Link #29118 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
I begun to argue about the fact that all the "games" were fictional stories at the time of EP5. Note that that happened quite shortly after I read EP4, since from EP5 onward I stopped waiting for the translation.
I used to call it "fictional theory". When EP6 came out the theory was widely accepted, and before I knew it it was named "author theory" and I adapted to it. I first elaborated the theory at page 178 of this thread, and then Renall at page 179 gave his input and we started discussing it seriously. Granted, the name "Rokkenjima Prime" wasn't popularized yet, but it was an inevitable consequence. Apparently the first post in this thread that mentions it is from Kylon http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...me#post2971652 At any rate if there was no distinction between "Prime" and "games" there's even less of a reason to not wonder about the truth of the universe where the Ange of 1998 is from. From that perspective saying that Ryukishi never asked us to find that truth would be the same as claiming that Ryukishi asked us to solve EP1 but not EP5.
__________________
|
2012-06-11, 18:45 | Link #29119 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
But you know, that's just arguing for the sake of arguing. |
|
2012-06-11, 20:21 | Link #29120 |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
|
A question:
I've seen the "Ryukishi had no solution" argument pop up a few times these past couple days and I'm curious as to what exactly you mean by this. Do you mean -Ryukishi literally had no idea where he was going with this and just presented a bunch of possibilities that might satisfy us and expected us to sort out the 'truth' from a mess of red herrings? or -Ryukishi was unable to commit to a single answer because suggested possibilities are not quite properly explored within the story because he messed up along the way? I mean, thematically, this works better than the first option. Ryukishi could very well have had a 'satisfying conclusion' from the get-go, but trapped himself midway through and tried desperately to salvage the remainder of the series to make it at least enjoyable, if not 'satisfying'. I do not see this as malicious, nor does it necessarily make me angry at Ryukishi. I mean, it was literally a four-year journey that depended heavily on audience reaction. Even if he had thoroughly documented and planned out a masterpiece from the start, he's human, and when if one of his changes somehow trapped him, I feel he did a pretty good job patching it up without creating obvious contradictions. It just leaves a lot of ambiguity which just happens to fit in with the themes of the story. |
|
|