[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Kitsu]

Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. (due my reasoning that all corpses were identified by Battler this doesn't apply at all cause there is no unidentified corpse)

Therefore, no body double tricks exist! (due the basis of this statement doesn't apply at all, this one doesn't apply as well)

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Don't await something intelligent from me xD
Lets look at the closed rooms at first which of the rooms is really a closed room?
-Eva&Hideyoshi
-Natsuhi's room with Gohda and co
-the closed room circle in episode 3
-Jessica's death in epsiode 4

That was it right?

Closed rooms. The number of which can be considered "real" closed rooms vary from your assumptions. As Beatrice said in Ep2, Battler creates closed rooms himself by denying the possibility that one of the servant is a culprit. If you don't assume that, they aren't closed rooms at all. However chessboard thinking dictates that it would be impossible for the culprit to create a murder scene that will definitely point at himself at the only possible perpetrator.

Nope... I think all of those easy explanations are just "noises" put there to make us stop thinking.

Even if there are easily explainable closed room cases, there are others that are not. Which means an incredible method X to create closed rooms exists. If such a method exists, then it could be applied to every closed room scenario. There is no need to explain the other closed room scenarios with cheap tricks or by suspecting everyone.

What I mean to say is that it is pointless to try to explain the easier closed room scenarios. As long as one remain you haven't solved the riddle. So let's start from the hardest one. If you can solve that, all the rest will be automatically explained.

The hardest one is Natsuhi's room (ep2). But that's mainly because we've got the highest number of red truths about it. It doesn't mean it is actually the more complex. In fact I believe that all the closed rooms of ep2 are the same.

let' analyze the elements we got:

-Natsuhi's room is the same, as always

This refers to the closed room scenario. let's go over it in detail:

there are absolutely no types of hidden doors (knox rules also forbid this)

Definition of hidden door:
A hidden door refers to an entrance or exit that cannot be recognized by those who do not know of it.

This door is the only way in or out Hard to believe since windows exist. However I guess this mean that the culprit definitely passed through the door and not through some other entrance.
The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's single key or the master keys, only one of which is held by each servant In the case of Natsuhi's room, we only have the five master keys and Natsuhi's key
the window is locked from the inside this apply to any closed room AFAIK.
Regarding the window, no method exists by which it could somehow be locked from the outside
When locked (the door), entry is not possible by any means if taken literally this sentence alone precludes any other possible way of entering and exiting. The culprit passed through the door and the door had to be unlocked.
No trick could have the effect of locking the door from the outside without using a key Again you need either a master key or the key of the room. However it is possible to lock the door from inside without a key, since there is a manual lock.
No one is hiding An easy solution for Eva&Hideyoshi case in Ep1 but in several closed rooms this was denied.
The door and the window do not permit any kind of entry or exit when they are locked So it wouldn't work to remove the door and make a crack to slide in through or anything like that while the lock is still on.

Definition of closed room:
The term closed room refers to a room where the inside and the outside of the room are completely separated. Obviously, for any form of intrusion or escape, no intervention is possible. That comprehensively includes a denial of hidden doors, as well as all margin for intervention from the outside.

definition of 'margin for intervention from the outside':
It refers to all types of direct intervention from the outside, such as using a fishing line or a long, thin rod. In conclusion, there is no gap in the doors and windows where those tricks will work. I add to this definition that it is impossible for radio waves and related methods of remote control to interfere. All direct and indirect methods of interfering from the outside of the room to the inside of the closed room are impossible.

These definitions appear in Ep3, but I think it is better to assume they work for Ep2 as well.

Back on Natsuhi's room scenario:

-The door and windows are locked from the inside
-There is no fraud or trick, there are no secret passages or hidden places
-Natsuhi's key was in George's pocket, shut inside the room which was closed off
-There are only five master keys, however Rosa has them all
-All of the master keys were under Rosa's control.
-After Rosa came to control the master keys, not once did they leave her hands! Except for the time that she lent it to Battler to unlock Natsuhi's room.


It would be easy to explain this with a group suicide. or mutual killing. However such explanation lacks any logic. Maybe George and Gohda could have killed themselves, but in Shannon's case it is almost impossible. Those stakes aren't good weapons, Shannon couldn't break her own skull with those.

The possibility that either Gohda or George killed the rest and then killed himself might exist I guess, but why?

This is the kind of theory that I'm pretty sure would be denied by the witch. Battler kinda used this same logic in other instances, I doubt Ryukishi showed us the solution of the mystery like that.

You need to imagine a way for an external killer to have committed this murder without going against any of the red text, and without going against common sense or recurring to definition loopholes.

[scwizard]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. (due my reasoning that all corpses were identified by Battler this doesn't apply at all cause there is no unidentified corpse)

Therefore, no body double tricks exist! (due the basis of this statement doesn't apply at all, this one doesn't apply as well)

My interpretation, is that the red text does not refer to corpses which Battler did not or was not able to come up with an identity for, but instead refers to corpses which are unidentifiable from their anatomy, but which Battler identified from their clothes.

Spoiler for images:

I think here Battler is saying that the culprit hid away by dressing up mysterious corpse X in their clothes, and using that corpse as a body double. Beatrice is saying that this is impossible. I think the reason she intends to give is that it is impossible because the identity of the corpses rendered "unidentifiable" due to face mutilation is guaranteed to be as Battler first guessed them to be. Therefore, no body double tricks exist. I think a more correct translation of this red text would be "Regarding unidentifiable corpses, all their identities are guaranteed [to be as they seem]. Therefore no body double tricks exist." I say this because I'm not sure what "unidentified corpses" Beatrice would be referring to, other than the unidentifiable corpses of the people in the shed with their faces deformed.

Later in the ???? Lambadelta says "the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed." I'm going to say that this is an incorrect translation, and a more correct translation would be "the identities of all unidentifiable corpses are guaranteed [to be as they seem]"

I say this, because the blue text she's referring to refers to "unidentifiable corpses" meaning the corpses that have had their faces deformed. It does not refer to an "unidentified corpse."

Spoiler for image:

It doesn't make sense to talk about guaranteeing the identities to unidentified corpses. Because if a corpse is unidentified, that means that no one was able to guess at the corpse's. So in that case what are the witches guaranteeing?

I think this sounds pretty reasonable. But I'll need someone who is actually bilingual to verify whether I'm just grasping at straws, or whether my interpretation reflects the original Japanese. In the Japanese is ambiguous whether the red text guarantees that the bodies found in the shed are Nanjo, Kyrie, Rudolf and Rosa or not? The English seems to strongly suggest that the bodies are in fact the bodies of the four, but if you look at the semantics very rigidly, then the red text can be interpreted as guaranteeing nothing at all instead, which seems to be how Kitsu is saying he is interpreting it.

tl;dr it's quite a stretch to say that the phrase "unidentified corpses" in the red text does not refer to the corpses of Nanjo, Kyrie, Rudolf and Rosa. It's pretty freaking obvious to anyone who reads the full context that that is exactly what the phrase is referring to.

[Kaiba]

There is no way that Battler could possibly confuse a corpse living person, with a corpse with half their head destroyed, or else all the people found with half their heads destroyed in episode four could be alive.

Not really. There's a difference between seeing a corpse in the light in an open room, and seeing one in a dark shed. And if I remember correctly, Battler did see part of Shannon, though not her face or the ring (though I could be wrong).
Also, another question now for Episode 3: when is the last time we know for certain that Shannon was alive anyways?

[Kitsu]

@Jan-Poo

First what do oyu mean wtith external killer? You mean "no suicide" right?

About the Method X

I think the biggest hint to that method is Gohda's booklet. In that one we have a closed room, one key and person who helds mentioned key.
Gohda in this case argues that there is still the possibility that someone took the key from Kanon's pocket. I don't think this can be really the solution. I believe Method X was used here as well. Then the story about the kitchen and the one about the magic circle that appeared on that night shift, here as well I believe Method X was used.

What I think Method X is? It might be "believing", a fitting "weapon" for a "witch". Believing that there is no other way into the shed or believing that he really locked the shed on that day led Kanon to believe that the shed is a closed room for example. I don't think this is correct but a a faactor in this mystery for sure.

Also I think it can't be a really complictated trick since that would be lame and is already out due the Knox rules, right?

I can't crack Natsuhi's room with something "complicated" to be honest but if you look at all closed rooms, they have something in common something is scribbeled on the door. (be it the handprints or the circles) Thought I don't know what to make out of it

[Jan-Poo]

It doesn't make sense to talk about guaranteeing the identities to unidentified corpses. Because if a corpse is unidentified, that means that no one was able to guess at the corpse's. So in that case what are the witches guaranteeing?

I think this sounds pretty reasonable. But I'll need someone who is actually bilingual to verify whether I'm just grasping at straws, or whether my interpretation reflects the original Japanese. In the Japanese is ambiguous whether the red text guarantees that the bodies found in the shed are Nanjo, Kyrie, Rudolf and Rosa or not? The English seems to strongly suggest that the bodies are in fact the bodies of the four, but if you look at the semantics very rigidly, then the red text can be interpreted as guaranteeing nothing at all instead, which seems to be how Kitsu is saying he is interpreting

I am not a japanese expert but let us analyze the original sentence:

身元不明死体について、その身元を全て保証する

if you want to translate it piece by piece in a very literal way it becomes:

"regarding the dead bodies of unknown identity, those identities i will guarantee them all."

It sucks as a translation obviously, however this should make clear that the word used is "unknown identity". But that unknown can also mean, "obscure" "uncertain" "ambiguous". It has that kind of meaning. So it does make sense in this context, because even so it was easy to speculate about their identity it wasn't 100% certain.

First what do oyu mean wtith external killer? You mean "no suicide" right?

I mean a killer that isn't among the victims, so no suicide, no mutual killing, and no accidental deaths.

What I think Method X is? It might be "believing", a fitting "weapon" for a "witch". Believing that there is no other way into the shed or believing that he really locked the shed on that day led Kanon to believe that the shed is a closed room for example. I don't think this is correct but a a faactor in this mystery for sure.

Also I think it can't be a really complictated trick since that would be lame and is already out due the Knox rules, right?

I can't crack Natsuhi's room with something "complicated" to be honest but if you look at all closed rooms, they have something in common something is scribbeled on the door. (be it the handprints or the circles) Thought I don't know what to make out of it

I also thinks that the case described in Gohda's booklet was recreated using the same method. And I also think it isn't something complicated. However it must be obscure enough to go completely unseen by thousand of people.

It is like the epitaph... riddle, worthless, infantile... and yet no one can give a solution.

Then in this cases the most probable explanation is that we are assuming something that render us blind to the solution.

Something that I often thought was: Are the doors locked in the first place? There is no red truth that confirm this, however Battler himself opens Natsuhi's room door, how could he not notice this?

[scwizard]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

Not really. There's a difference between seeing a corpse in the light in an open room, and seeing one in a dark shed. And if I remember correctly, Battler did see part of Shannon, though not her face or the ring (though I could be wrong).
Also, another question now for Episode 3: when is the last time we know for certain that Shannon was alive anyways?

I don't think that the shed was dark. The door (which is one of those garage type doors that occupies a whole wall) was open and it was morning, a ton of sunlight should have been coming in. Also he provides some level of detail about the state of the corpses.

Also if you're going to pretend to be dead, pretending to be a corpse with half your head blown off is quite a stretch. It is very hard or impossible to impersonate such a corpse. That only applies to Krauss though. For the others, Battler made comments such as "the ridges of their teeth were exposed, teeth were missing." Do you really think they'd do such damage to their faces in order to play dead, or have access to the advanced makeup needed to pretend to have their faces damaged this way?

It's much more straightforward to be like Kanon and be like "I have a clearly been stabbed in the chest, you know this because a stabbing thing is laying next to me and I'm covered in red stuff." This is why I'm so confident that the bunch in the shed is certainly dead.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I am not a japanese expert but let us analyze the original sentence:

身元不明死体について、その身元を全て保証する

if you want to translate it piece by piece in a very literal way it becomes:

"regarding the dead bodies of unknown identity, those identities i will guarantee them all."

It sucks as a translation obviously, however this should make clear that the word used is "unknown identity". But that unknown can also mean, "obscure" "uncertain" "ambiguous". It has that kind of meaning. So it does make sense in this context, because even so it was easy to speculate about their identity it wasn't 100% certain.

Then it could go either way. A corpse of unknown identity is a different sort of beast than a corpse of uncertain identity. My argument of course, is that it's the later, because it doesn't make sense to guarantee the identities of corpses of unknown identity.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

-Natsuhi's room is the same, as always

No one is hiding An easy solution for Eva&Hideyoshi case in Ep1 but in several closed rooms this was denied.

I don't think the no one is hiding red is applicable to Natsuhi's room. Looking at what Beato recited there, she was just repeating the closed room definition, which doesn't say anything about people hiding. She does say that there are no secret passages or hidden places, but "hidden places" refers to Battler's theory that there are hiding places he can't find that don't connect to the outside of the room (like secret cupboards in the wall).

I think you're right that Natsuhi's room is the linchpin of the Episode. I wish I could come up with some reason why they were ransacking the room in the first place, but at least I've got a theory about how everyone died.

Spoiler for Long and rambling locked room theory:

All five master keys were in Rosa's possession from the time she received them from the servants until she handed one to Battler to open the door to Natsuhi's room.
Rosa was under Battler's observation throughout this period.
The key to Natsuhi's room is in George's pocket inside the room.
Battler verified that the door was locked.
The windows were locked from the inside.
Therefore the door was locked from the inside by someone who is still in the room at the time the room is opened.

Battler, Rosa, and Maria are naturally excluded.
Prior to the servants and George splitting off from Rosa's group, Natsuhi, Krauss, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, and Kanon are dead, so they are excluded.
Genji is with Rosa's group before they enter the room, so he is excluded.
Kumasawa and Nanjo are lying in the courtyard with their throats slit immediately before Rosa's group goes to Natsuhi's room. Even if they are somehow not dead, they are excluded. At any rate, Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers.

This leaves Jessica, George, Shannon, and Gohda. Of these, Shannon was shot in the head with some kind of gun and almost certainly died instantly. She could not have attacked anyone after this occurred.
Battler did not see a gun lying out in the open in Natsuhi's room.
Battler saw that Gohda and George were staked in the chest and stomach, respectively. Neither location would have required a gunshot in order to carry out a stabbing.
There was a stake near Shannon too, but the stake was not stabbed into her head wound.
However, we cannot confirm that any of them are dead except Shannon. Jessica could not be confirmed dead at the second twilight for the same reason, so it is possible that she is hiding in the room.

There are a couple of possibilities at this point, depending on who died when, but at the very least the gun that was used to shoot Shannon was hidden afterwards, and she was also not properly staked. On that basis I'll suggest that Shannon staked George and Gohda. If George or Gohda managed to shoot Shannon with a gun before dying, they would have had no reason to hide it afterwards, so the gun was fired by a third party, who hid somewhere in the room afterwards. The only available third party is Jessica, and this is only possible if she survived being staked in the second twilight.

To set this up, I need to back up to the second twilight. At that time, Kanon, Jessica, and Gohda went to the honored guest room and found the letter from Beatrice. Gohda went back to Rosa to report, while Kanon and Jessica went to Jessica's room. Based on Gohda's report, Rosa found out where Jessica and Kanon were. She separated from the others, ostensibly to speak with Kinzo, but she actually went to Jessica's room instead. Jessica or Kanon let her in, but she then attacked both of them from behind with a stake that she acquired somewhere. Kanon was killed instantly, but Jessica was just wounded and unconscious.

Beato deliberately said that "the corpse of Jessica is also included (among the people in the room)." Supposedly this was to taunt Battler with the possibility of Jessica being the culprit, but it also allows her to be a victim who miraculously survived. It's possible that Nanjo just made a mistake when he declared that she was dead.

Now we need Rosa to set up the locked room. After the room is searched, we know that the window is locked from the inside. In comparison to other locked rooms though, Beato does not say that "the window was locked from the inside." That means that when everyone first entered the room, the window could have been unlocked. Rosa could have locked the door from the inside, thrown Kanon's body out the window, climbed out after him, and shut the window. Then she could have relocked the window while pretending to search the room.

Why Rosa? Genji and Kumasawa are not murderers. Genji provides an alibi for Shannon even if they were lying about being in the study, and in any case Shannon didn't know where Kanon and Jessica went. Only Gohda and Rosa are left with any opportunity. I can't disprove Gohda's involvement, unfortunately. Shannon is still technically a possibility, although it requires her and Genji to have split up at some point without him saying anything. However, choosing Rosa is useful for the next bit.

Next is the Fake Kanon scene. Given that Genji was present, Nanjo and Kumasawa are the victims, and neither of those three is a murderer, we need to come up with a reason for the story the survivors gave Rosa other than "Genji, Gohda, and Shannon are accomplices." So: Jessica regained consciousness and made her way downstairs, although she was badly injured. Nanjo treated her wounds, and she warned the servants that Rosa was the one who attacked her and Kanon. The servants decided to fake Kumasawa and Nanjo's deaths to get them off Rosa's radar, and Shannon goes to the boiler room to get red paint for that purpose.

Between the Fake Kanon ruse and Natsuhi's room it's not clear what actually happened, since almost the whole thing was magic world. I'd imagine that Shannon got away from the others at some point and staked Kumasawa and Nanjo. Possibly Jessica linked up with George's group and they all went to Natsuhi's room together for some reason, and they picked up a gun along the way.

EDIT: Ah, I didn't see that Kitsu had also suggested Jessica wasn't dead (although I think we've got different reasoning behind it).

[rogerpepitone]

There's a hole in your theory, LyricalAura.

Spoiler:

"Rosa was under Battler's observation throughout this period." is not true.

When Genji knocks on the door to tell Battler, Rosa, and Maria about Nanjo / Kumasawa, Battler states "I was napping in a sofa, and that voice also brought me back to reality."

[Raneh]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Beato deliberately said that "the corpse of Jessica is also included (among the people in the room)." Supposedly this was to taunt Battler with the possibility of Jessica being the culprit, but it also allows her to be a victim who miraculously survived. It's possible that Nanjo just made a mistake when he declared that she was dead.

But before that Beatrice also stated "When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room". Would it be possible for Beato refer to it as a 'corpse' if she was still alive? A corpse means that the body is dead, right?

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

There's a hole in your theory, LyricalAura.

Spoiler:

"Rosa was under Battler's observation throughout this period." is not true.

When Genji knocks on the door to tell Battler, Rosa, and Maria about Nanjo / Kumasawa, Battler states "I was napping in a sofa, and that voice also brought me back to reality."

Oh, hmm. I forgot about that. But didn't Rosa barricade the door with a pile of furniture after the servants left? If Battler was sleeping lightly enough that he woke up to Genji talking from behind the door, I'd also expect him to wake up when heavy furniture is shifted nearby.

Originally Posted by Raneh

But before that Beatrice also stated "When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room". Would it be possible for Beato refer to it as a 'corpse' if she was still alive? A corpse means that the body is dead, right?

I'm not sure, actually. Since Beato was taunting Battler with the possibility of Jessica having killed Kanon and dancing around the corpse issue later, I assumed that the red should be interpreted as "when Jessica was discovered (and you thought she was a corpse)," but I could be totally wrong.

[Jan-Poo]

But didn't Rosa barricade the door with a pile of furniture after the servants left?

I don't remember if it is really said in the novel, but when I saw that in the anime I couldn't help but bursting to laugh.

I mean the door is locked. You'd think that's enough, but Rosa thinks that maybe the evil servants have other keys so she barricades the door. That's all right you can never be sure enough.

Then you see Rosa standing guard looking at the door with her gun readied. So wtf Rosa? Are you even thinking that the servants will rush in with herculean force and destroy the barricade? But that's all right, you can never be sure enough...

So tell me Rosa... if you are that paranoid about the door... please tell me... why are you showing your back to those huge glass windows?

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I don't remember if it is really said in the novel, but when I saw that in the anime I couldn't help but bursting to laugh.

I mean the door is locked. You'd think that's enough, but Rosa thinks that maybe the evil servants have other keys so she barricades the door. That's all right you can never be sure enough.

Then you see Rosa standing guard looking at the door with her gun readied. So wtf Rosa? Are you even thinking that the servants will rush in with herculean force and destroy the barricade? But that's all right, you can never be sure enough...

So tell me Rosa... if you are that paranoid about the door... please tell me... why are you showing your back to those huge glass windows?

Kinzo's study is the most secure room in the mansion. They all know the layout well. It should become a priority to get there once it becomes clear that there's a killer on the loose. The last place I would choose would be a room full of glass windows.

[Jan-Poo]

What bothers me is that she could have at least covered them with the curtains. Didn't she ever think about the possibility that there might be other guns (which happens to be true btw)? She might be quite determined but I'd never want her as a battle strategist.

[Renall]

Regarding Beatrice-1967's parentage and... possible parent status herself...

It's creepy but: If Ushiromiya Kinzo was Beatrice-1967's father, and impregnated her as well, the child of that union would be both Kinzo's son and grandson! But even if the father were someone else, if Battler is that child, he can still claim to be Kinzo's grandson. Of course nothing says the child from 19 years ago was Beatrice-1967's, that she was Kinzo's daughter, or that Battler is the child. Any of these could be untrue.

On the motive of the killers: Virgilia states...

Her goal was not to have you taste fear. It was not for seeking revenge on someone, either. This refers only to Beatrice's motives. The real, human killers could have fear or revenge as a motive.

Also stated: Beato did not commit the murders for enjoyment. This is easy: Beato didn't commit any murders.

So we can't really say for sure why the killings happened. Any reasonable motive is still plausible, as long as there's some kind of evidence for it.

[Megaolix]

Originally Posted by Renall

Regarding Beatrice-1967's parentage and... possible parent status herself...

It's creepy but: If Ushiromiya Kinzo was Beatrice-1967's father, and impregnated her as well, the child of that union would be both Kinzo's son and grandson! But even if the father were someone else, if Battler is that child, he can still claim to be Kinzo's grandson. Of course nothing says the child from 19 years ago was Beatrice-1967's, that she was Kinzo's daughter, or that Battler is the child. Any of these could be untrue.

On the motive of the killers: Virgilia states...

Her goal was not to have you taste fear. It was not for seeking revenge on someone, either. This refers only to Beatrice's motives. The real, human killers could have fear or revenge as a motive.

Also stated: Beato did not commit the murders for enjoyment. This is easy: Beato didn't commit any murders.

So we can't really say for sure why the killings happened. Any reasonable motive is still plausible, as long as there's some kind of evidence for it.

Someone on the island is 'Beatrice'. Second, let's remember that the culprit also does not return from the island. So why does the suspect doesn't mind dying?

Not that I can say you're wrong, but it would have been pointless for Virgilia to say those in red if it didn't have any meaning.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Megaolix

Someone on the island is 'Beatrice'. Second, let's remember that the culprit also does not return from the island. So why does the suspect doesn't mind dying?

Not that I can say you're wrong, but it would have been pointless for Virgilia to say those in red if it didn't have any meaning.

Few things:

1) "Beato" is Beatrice, the meta-Beatrice. We can't really be sure "Beato" is meant to refer to anyone named Beatrice, or to any specific Beatrice, or to all Beatrices. It certainly could; I'm not denying that. However, from the context of the scene it seems clear who Virgilia is talking about; Beatrice the Golden Witch. And if Battler is correct that witches don't have anything to do with the Rokkenjima murders, it's completely true that Beatrice didn't commit the murders for any particular reason, because she didn't commit them at all. That said, let's say for a second she means anyone who goes by "Beatrice." That leads us to...

2) The "Beatrice" on Rokkenjima is not committing murder. We can point to no instance whatsoever in which the skirt-wearing Beatrice kills anyone. In ep2 she disappears after the first night, and even if you do believe she was in the chapel (which I kind of doubt, but again, let's assume), there is no proof she kills anyone and the dialogue in the scene seems to run entirely counter to that anyway. It's possible that Shannon, as "Beatrice," revealed to the adults (minus Rosa) that she had solved the epitaph, and they all accepted this grudgingly. "Beatrice" then left for some reason and Rosa appeared and killed the other six. Obviously, in such a scenario "Beatrice" would not be a murderer.

3) Alterately, if "Beatrice" is killing people, only her motives are restricted. She is not killing for fear or revenge, and is not enjoying it. However it is abundantly clear that there is more than one killer on the island. That killer, if he or she is not Beatrice in any form, can be killing for any reason he or she wishes. Say for instance that Kanon is a killer. Kanon is Kanon, not Beatrice. He has never been called "Beatrice" or referred to as such. Kanon may kill for any reason, even if "Beatrice" cannot.

Note that if this statement is true for the "Beatrice" on the island, motive could be a hint. The contrapositive would also be true: If a murder was committed to cause fear, for revenge, or was enjoyed by the killer, it wasn't done by Beatrice. If you could demonstrate that the motive for a particular crime was one of these things, then "Beatrice" wasn't the one responsible.

[Megaolix]

Like I said, I can't deny it. The only counter that I can give to your argument is this: Beatrice in the meta-world is the culprit in a disguise. The disguise will be broken once the mystery is solved.


But I refuse to ignore reds on the basis that the wordplay makes them apply only in the meta-world. Furthermore, if the motive was simply fear or revenge, then why does the culprit also die? Why does EVERYONE need to die?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Megaolix

But I refuse to ignore reds on the basis that the wordplay makes them apply only in the meta-world. Furthermore, if the motive was simply fear or revenge, then why does the culprit also die? Why does EVERYONE need to die?

Again, there are multiple culprits, and something happens at midnight of the 5th/6th. Whatever happens at that time seems to kill anyone still alive who didn't do something to escape it (as Eva apparently did in ep3). Thus, "Beatrice" can kill people without violating the restrictions on her motives, then she can be killed by one of the other killers. Alternately, she can survive to the end and get killed by whatever happens at midnight.

In either case, she winds up dead, whether or not she ever intended to.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Renall

On the motive of the killers: Virgilia states...

Her goal was not to have you taste fear. It was not for seeking revenge on someone, either. This refers only to Beatrice's motives. The real, human killers could have fear or revenge as a motive.

Also stated: Beato did not commit the murders for enjoyment. This is easy: Beato didn't commit any murders.

So we can't really say for sure why the killings happened. Any reasonable motive is still plausible, as long as there's some kind of evidence for it.

I see. That makes sense to me. Virgilia is basically telling Battler in this scene that Beatrice is not the one who is killing people. Virgilia doesn't simply say that Beatrice is not killing people in red because she wants Battler to realize this for himself.

It's very sad. When he finally realizes it, she's gone.