"Geneon USA" in credits DOESN'T equal a license!?

[NoSanninWa]

Originally Posted by flammie

I think if the show has U.S. funding, it means an American company has some form of rights to the show, and therefore the show shouldn't be on the site. It really is the rights holders' choice on whether or not they want to release it in NA. But hey, whatever works best for you guys.

Wrong. There are many types of "rights" that can be acquired: Merchandising rights, Regional distribution rights (by region), artbook rights, creative control rights... The exact "rights" that each party has are spelled out specifically in contracts. Most co-producers don't get the rights to international distribution. So far Geneon USA has negotiated for the NA distribution rights (which doesn't cover European distribution) either as part of their initial contract or after production. It is possible though that all Geneon USA might acquire as a co-producer is a share of the profit. US Funding alone won't automatically give any rights at all unless they specifically negotiate for more than a slice of the pie.

[7thMethuselah]

As long as a series isn't officially announced as being licensed, list in on animesuki is my opinion. Coproduced or not ... After all most of the series on animesuki are bound to get licensed sooner or later, if you're gonna remove every show that might get a license because of a coproduction then there won't be much left.
The only way to be really sure a show doesn't get licensed is to wait like two years after it ended, if it hasn't got a license at that point then there is a big chance it won't get licensed (and even then we can never be sure, looking at recent DiGi Charat's example).

So keep it simple : no official announcement -> list it

[TechnoMage]

Media Blasters has also had the contracts/licenses for Varoom One and Tales of Eternia canceled.

This could also be read as Media Blasters themselves canceled the licenses. As they were having financial troubles before (Example: Mezzo TV was theirs, but they had to sell the rights for this reason). This is well in the realm of possibility.

As for the Geneon thing, even if they say that a title having "Geneon USA" in the credits doesn't mean they will get the license, has there actually been an example of this? I can't think of any series which have not had "Geneon USA" of "PEA" in the credits that weren't later licensed by them. Of course, if someone can give an example, please do.

I'll also point to ADV and the Maburaho licensing... A good example of how one shouldn't take what these companies say 'unofficially' as exact truth.

Just my two cents.

[BanditKing]

Originally Posted by TechnoMage

This could also be read as Media Blasters themselves canceled the licenses. As they were having financial troubles before (Example: Mezzo TV was theirs, but they had to sell the rights for this reason). This is well in the realm of possibility.

They didn't canceled it,the japanese lost the master to give it to them therefore the contract must be cancel.

and as for the topic

95% Geneon USA that will get it is good enough for me to consider it licensed by them.

[JAppi]

If it were to be listed as unlicensed wouldn't that encourage more people to waste their time and sub it? It's not *definately* licesned, but it's a good enough bet that subbing it is more or less a waste of time. I for one wouldn't waste my time downloading it.

I dont' see anything wrong with unlicensing it in the database. I don't think anyone should encoruage people to sub it as most likely it will be announced at the next convention.

[microlith]

They didn't canceled it,the japanese lost the master to give it to them therefore the contract must be cancel.

This makes no sense You don't lose masters these days

Anyway...

As I've heard it described, fansubbing has devolved merely into a form of warez, right up there with the trading of movies and mp3s. It's just that fansubbing brought with it an air of legitimacy, having been done for so long.

But if you look at the way things are now, THIS is fansubbing's goal. Early on the Japanese companies had no idea of the value of their series. Now we have US companies providing them funding to create series.

I imagine that one reason Geneon USA funds the project is that no matter what, they get a peice of the pie. They get income from R1 and R2 sales, even if the R1 license goes to another company. But I imagine that Geneon USA has first pick on their titles, and even if they opt out (most likely cause their plate is too full and can't afford production costs at the time,) it will be licensed by someone without question.

Currently Naruto has run for over a year with no license announcement. FMA is a bit over halfway. Go ahead, fansub these. I won't complain. A lot of stuff, yes, will be licensed but nothing has it so obviously pointed out for the world at large than a show having a US company listed in the credits.

And it's believed MB pulled out of the contract due to economic concerns, I'm sure their contract required that if they do so, they find a suitable replacement, IE they had to sell the shows to other R1 licensors who could afford it (thus ADV gets Mezzo TV and Geneon got Maou Dante.)

[JAppi]

Originally Posted by microlith

As I've heard it described, fansubbing has devolved merely into a form of warez, right up there with the trading of movies and mp3s. It's just that fansubbing brought with it an air of legitimacy, having been done for so long.

Actually, all those are pefectly legal in canada so :P (as long as I don't burn it onto cd or make a physical copy ^_^)

[BanditKing]

Originally Posted by microlith

They didn't canceled it,the japanese lost the master to give it to them therefore the contract must be cancel.

This makes no sense You don't lose masters these days

well I thought people know what the term "master" is by now.

it mean production materials use to make the anime

here is the info here

[microlith]

Originally Posted by BanditKing

well I thought people know what the term "master" is by now.

it mean production materials use to make the anime

here is the info here

I thought you meant "masters" in the DNA^2 masters sense, IE there was no source video to have anything produced from

This, however, could be anything from video (depends on how old the series is) to fx/voice tracks (who knows...)

Oh well. There's PROBABLY sources capable of giving a sub-only release somewhere out there but MB's contract required sources that would allow them to make a dub.

[BanditKing]

Originally Posted by microlith

I thought you meant "masters" in the DNA^2 masters sense, IE there was no source video to have anything produced from

This, however, could be anything from video (depends on how old the series is) to fx/voice tracks (who knows...)

Oh well. There's PROBABLY sources capable of giving a sub-only release somewhere out there but MB's contract required sources that would allow them to make a dub.

oh I see what you mean

but it look like the original Japanese licensor cancel Media Blaster's domestic distribution so I don't know if they could do a sub-only release.

AN News

The original Japanese licensor no longer has production materials available for the Tales of Eternia anime TV series, so reluctantly had to cancel Media Blaster's domestic distribution agreement for the series.

[microlith]

I imagine they were contractually obliged to since they couldn't supply all the materials that were listed as required for production. As we've pounded into people's heads here, dubs make a show and I can see necessary materials for the creation of one as being a make-or-break point these days.

Maybe someone will snap it up later for a sub only license (or they'll somehow find the materials!) and we'll get a release.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by 7thMethuselah

As long as a series isn't officially announced as being licensed, list in on animesuki is my opinion. Coproduced or not ... After all most of the series on animesuki are bound to get licensed sooner or later, if you're gonna remove every show that might get a license because of a coproduction then there won't be much left.

[...]

So keep it simple : no official announcement -> list it

After giving it a bit of thought, I think this is the most sensible and workable model. Let's face it, fansubs are illegal whether they are licensed or not, so what we are looking for is a policy that is simple, straightforward and can be applied universally. Since licensed anime will always have some form of official announcement, that is the only thing we can always use as a measurement. I fully expect the waters will only get more cloudy in years to come, with international corporations having more involvment in this industry. I feel that the policy of this site should be clear and non-subjective; that way it doesn't rely on opinions, but on pure facts. If the policy is clear and consistently applied, no one can get upset even though they may disagree.

[ACE2003]

Well, I remember arguing the same thing about Burn-Up Scramble a couple of weeks ago because it had Geneon USA in the credits, therefore no one was fansubbing it because it's considered licensed. Me personally, untill I hear an announcement at a Anime convention, read about saying 100%, not 95%, that the anime is LICENSED, then yeah it shouldn't be on here. But just having Geneon USA in the credits doesn't mean too much when an official announcement hasn't been made. I've been following the rules here, for the Tenjo Tenge thread because it had Geneon USA in the credits, but I didn't believe was licensed to begin with. Ninety-Five percent isn't a good enough percentage for me because there is still room for error. You know what would suck, if Tenjo Tenge happened not to be licensed by Geneon or something happens, that would suck. Bottom Line, I need to hear it from a convention or read it in a anime magazine to believe it is licensed, other than that, I ain't buying.

[lomeando]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems the obvious thing to do would've been to ask Geneon: "Do you object to the distribution of fansubs of works you have co-produced before you announce the North American license?"

Instead of asking one question in order to derive the answer to another, ask the question you really want answered.

I can think of several reasons why Geneon might say "no". Fansubs are free grassroots advertising, and the licensing announcement still gives them the ability to cut off that advertising at the exact point they wish. I'm sure it wouldn't hold in a court of law, but a public statement by the rights holder in favor of your activities would probably go a long way towards keeping you out of court in the first place. If they instead object to any fansubs, this likely means that it will still be fansubbed, just not by anyone who would stop at something as trivial as a licensing annoucement, and thus would not be something they have any control over.

Until that question is asked, however, my default would be to assume the answer is "yes". The difference between a co-produced show with an unannounced license and an unlicensed show is that in the first case a US stakeholder has already been clearly identified. When you ask the question, "Whose rights am I violating with this technically illegal fansub?" and the answer is a company in the same jurisdiction as you, then maybe that should give you some pause. It doesn't matter that they may not eventually end up with the distribution rights, they are still investors in the show.

Note that all these arguments intentionally avoid the question of morality. Morals are very nice things to have, but the truth is everyone has their own. Which just means that you can't change someone's mind by arguing something is "morally right". A person with a different opinion will just say, "not by my moral standard", and that is that (of course, as the admins have so often noted, this site is not a democracy, and they can impose whatever moral standard they want to).

[GHDpro]

IMHO, even if it's not 100% sure, but just 95% sure that a title will be licensed by the
US company that appears in the credits, than that is still a damn high probability.

For this reason I still consider Tenjo Tenge (etc) licensed. And for this reason there are
tons and tons of other people who consider them licensed. And for that reason, AnimeSuki
will simply not change it's current policy of considering them licensed -- we'd be fried by the
group of people who think we should consider these series as licensed if we did that.

So, if you want AnimeSuki to list it, you must first change the general opinion of those people.
That's the reason NoSanninWa asked the question at the Geneon panel and posted their answer here.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure this effort was succesful... (no offense intended)

Just my 2 cts.

[MrMonkey]

The way I understand it, animesuki lists shows that havent been officially annouced as licensed. This is why some gundam as well as other show people have mentioned like FMA are still listed, even though they are almost guaranteed to be licensed at some point.

The question here is, does Geneon USA automatically hold the license to the shows it co-produces? The answer, according to NoSanninWa's post, is no. It's very likely yes, but not 100%. Considering that Geneon USA does not automatically hold the license, and that no-one has of yet (to my knowledge) officially announced the shows (the examples, Tenjo Tenge and Hanaukyo that were given) as licensed, then by animesuki standards they should be considered unlicensed and therefore listed.

Well thats my take on it anyway.

[Gold_Rogers]

Isn't it a given that series like Naruto, One Piece, and Fullmetal Alchemist will be licensed one day? I mean, that's not just a 95% chance: it's 100%. We might not know exactly WHO will license them, or WHEN, but we do know that eventually it'll happen. These days, almost all anime series that have even a medium size following will get licensed.

I sincerely believe this is the case, and that Animesuki, by listing those titles (even though they are sure to get licensed) is saying "Look, we're going to post torrents of series that have yet to be announced as licensed."

Now, since NoSanninWa asked the Geneon representative whether Geneon USA in the credits means that Geneon will get the license, and since that person checked with their licensing agreements/provisions and gave the answer "No, not always," I believe it is ok to list these series until a formal announcement is made.

The point is this: even if Tenjo Tenge (used for example only) has a 95% chance of being licensed and distributed by Geneon, we are not sure. What if Tenjo Tenge is one of those 5% cases that Geneon does NOT get the right to distribute in the US, even though it ended up co-poducing it? We cannot be sure WHO will license it if not Geneon, or even WHEN. We can be sure that it will be licensed someday, maybe even more so than series like Naruto/One Piece/FMA, but that is something we can be sure of with the as of yet unlicensed hot series as well.

It cannot be said with 100% objectivity until Geneon officially announces the title. There is a big difference between a company officially announcing it has a title (and thereby claiming its rights to it to the whole industry and effectively telling fansubbers to stop or continue at their own risk) and there being a 9 out of 10 chance of it happening. If we want to go for objectivity (and simplicity), it is definitely easier to have a simple rule that deals with licensing announcements. No one can argue in that case.

[DekaMaster]

Originally Posted by MrMonkey

The way I understand it, animesuki lists shows that havent been officially annouced as licensed. This is why some gundam as well as other show people have mentioned like FMA are still listed, even though they are almost guaranteed to be licensed at some point.

The question here is, does Geneon USA automatically hold the license to the shows it co-produces? The answer, according to NoSanninWa's post, is no. It's very likely yes, but not 100%. Considering that Geneon USA does not automatically hold the license, and that no-one has of yet (to my knowledge) officially announced the shows (the examples, Tenjo Tenge and Hanaukyo that were given) as licensed, then by animesuki standards they should be considered unlicensed and therefore listed.

Well thats my take on it anyway.

Well you have to do what you have to do It's just a good thing there are other sites that go by 100 and not 95

[microlith]

The point is this: even if Tenjo Tenge (used for example only) has a 95% chance of being licensed and distributed by Geneon, we are not sure. What if Tenjo Tenge is one of those 5% cases that Geneon does NOT get the right to distribute in the US, even though it ended up co-poducing it? We cannot be sure WHO will license it if not Geneon, or even WHEN. We can be sure that it will be licensed someday, maybe even more so than series like Naruto/One Piece/FMA, but that is something we can be sure of with the as of yet unlicensed hot series as well.

Well with the odds in Geneon's favor, you're not likely to end up distributing they won't license. Declaring the other 95% fair game cause some 5% you can't know might end up NOT being picked up by Geneon does not make sense. And as you said, most stuff is or will be licensed. Fansubbing's ethics have gone flaky, if not completely out the window, so what can you do?

Despite this, my point has been and will be the following:

Animesuki should not list (and fansubbers should not sub) shows with Geneon USA listed in the production credits because it is patently OBVIOUS that the series either IS or WILL be licensed. Anything else I hold no bones with.

[Mr_Paper]

I have to agree with microlith, if an American company is named in the credits for co-producing, funding, etc.. the series should not be fansubbed or listed. I believe AnimeSuki whould maintain it's current policy and not list these shows.