Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Rising Dragon]

There is no SEED movie news. Ever.

[cyberdemon]

I'm hoping that maybe that HD release is partially to prepare new fans and bring in old fans for but I'm certainly not getting my hopes up about too much.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Yeah but this "poll" also seems think the Wing Boys, AEUG and Celestial Being are heroes, but not Kira and Lacus, even though all groups are basically doing the same thing.

Than they just add their name only in villain poll because they hate them and don't want to see them in top 10 character
Kira+Lacus = trololo no > top 10 villain character
(no mater where you put them they will steal top spot even from MCs >>>> looking at Shin and Lunamaria/Stella)

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

it does make sense. They're like Celestial Being with their actions.

No, they aren't.

No one knows who Celestial Being are. They're so secretive that they don't even know the people in their own organization. The only communique they had at any point in the series was that 100 year old message from the bald guy /w the monocle and goatee. They are completely mysterious and lack any self-interest whatsoever. They have no friends. They have no allies. Anything you could possibly think of that would be worth fighting for Celestial Being completely lacks.

Archangel by comparison had a national representative at each of their engagements who declared their intent. Archangel's crew is pretty well known to the point that even if you aren't 100% sure, you can make a pretty darn good guess as to who's on board. And when they aren't operating in international waters, their host country is asked for permission. Compare that to Celestial Being who violated pretty much everyone's airspace with impunity.

And by the end of the series, everyone has national affiliations and public identities. Any secrets they do have are nationally kept and exchanged between alliances.

[Rising Dragon]

I'm not sure any of them are really comparable, given the differing goals of the organizations.

The Three Ships Alliance is meant to end the war between Naturals and Coordinators, while Celestial Being was meant to force the three power blocs to unite into a single force. Whereas the TSA was trying to end a conflict, CB was using conflict to attain a different goal. The other organizations aren't really comparable either; the Operation Meteor pilots were to enforce the independence of the space colonies as they broke away from Earth control, and the AEUG only wanted to put an end to the Titans.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

The Three Ships Alliance is meant to end the war between Naturals and Coordinators, while Celestial Being was meant to force the three power blocs to unite into a single force. Whereas the TSA was trying to end a conflict, CB was using conflict to attain a different goal. The other organizations aren't really comparable either; the Operation Meteor pilots were to enforce the independence of the space colonies as they broke away from Earth control, and the AEUG only wanted to put an end to the Titans.

All of them are still at heart rebel groups using acquired military technology to attack legitimate goverments. All could classified as terrorists. The only thing different are their end goals, but all of them are also "good" goals.

You can't demonize Kira and Lacus as villains while giving a pass to the other groups.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I'm not sure any of them are really comparable, given the differing goals of the organizations.

The Three Ships Alliance is meant to end the war between Naturals and Coordinators, while Celestial Being was meant to force the three power blocs to unite into a single force. Whereas the TSA was trying to end a conflict, CB was using conflict to attain a different goal. The other organizations aren't really comparable either; the Operation Meteor pilots were to enforce the independence of the space colonies as they broke away from Earth control, and the AEUG only wanted to put an end to the Titans.

It's not about looking alike
what he mean is why only Kira and Lacus in villain poll while people like CB, Wing boys and AEUG are not in it but in hero poll

people who done worse (they started war) yet they are in hero poll
while people who want to end it = in villain

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

All of them are still at heart rebel groups using acquired military technology to attack legitimate goverments. All could classified as terrorists. The only thing different are their end goals, but all of them are also "good" goals.

You can't demonize Kira and Lacus as villains while giving a pass to the other groups.

No at all. Consider Mithril from Full Metal Panic. They were a private military group with the world's most advanced technology, yet they made a point to not only not make enemies of the nations of the world, but establish relationships with them, actively recruiting from many national armed forces. You can be a private secretive company acting in your own interests and the interests of others without being a terrorist group.

I can't say I'm familiar with all the different factions and groups from the different Gundam series, but just because you aren't a national entity doesn't automatically make you a terrorist group if you happen to have and use weapons.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

Yeeeah, but if you're going to make an accusation of "Durandal is evil and he has every intention of going out of the way to do evil things," the burden of proof is on you to begin with.

I have yet to say anything about whether or not Durandal was evil.

What I did was to point out that Durandal, by his own words, viewed anyone who opposed the Destiny Plan as enemies of humanity, that Orb did oppose the Destiny Plan, and that Durandal was wiling to use a weapon of mass destruction, like the Requiem, to destroy his enemies.

It has nothing to do with who can refute who's points.

Well, it's certainly not the end goal of a discussion, but it still matters as a means whereby a position that is presented may be challenged.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Whenever the Archangel got involved, things went south for ZAFT.

Are you sure?

Because in THIS war, I remember them being involved in three engagements before Angel Down and the Minerva benefitted from TWO and took minimal losses on the other.

Remember, Minerva was LOSING the second battle to Orb when Kira intervened. And it bought them enough time for Shinn to go Seed and win them the fight. And Kira saved their star pilot, and the Impulse, and their only working mobile suit at the time from the Destroy.

Even the first battle, where it can be said that the Archangel screwed them over, it was still pretty early on, they were grossly outnumbered and there's no telling how many casualties they may have incurred. The two dozen or so dead, considering the odds against them on that engagement? About as good as it could have been expected.

All in all, the Minerva is pretty lucky that the Archangel was around.

Now, Durandal likes to lie to people, and that's probably not what he told everyone else. But let's not pretend WE are members of ZAFT. We certainly know better.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

All of them are still at heart rebel groups using acquired military technology to attack legitimate goverments. All could classified as terrorists. The only thing different are their end goals, but all of them are also "good" goals.

You can't demonize Kira and Lacus as villains while giving a pass to the other groups.

Terrorrism is a stretch. Terrorrist use fear to coerce people or governments.

The Archangel never did that. They escorted the Orb head of state to the battlefield so she could ask them to back off. And when no one listened, they just tried to prevent deaths.

They never tried to force the EA or ZAFT to stop the war, even though they wish they would. They never tried to scare the world into uniting against them, or beat them into peace. They brought Cagalli to order HER forces to stand down, then tried to prevent as many deaths as they could in those battles.

They're officially unaffiliated with any known army, but that isn't terrorrism in and of itself.

As for the villain poll... They ARE antagonists. Maybe it's a mistranslation. Char works better as an antagonist than a straight up villain too...

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

No, they aren't.

No one knows who Celestial Being are. They're so secretive that they don't even know the people in their own organization. The only communique they had at any point in the series was that 100 year old message from the bald guy /w the monocle and goatee. They are completely mysterious and lack any self-interest whatsoever. They have no friends. They have no allies. Anything you could possibly think of that would be worth fighting for Celestial Being completely lacks.

Archangel by comparison had a national representative at each of their engagements who declared their intent. Archangel's crew is pretty well known to the point that even if you aren't 100% sure, you can make a pretty darn good guess as to who's on board. And when they aren't operating in international waters, their host country is asked for permission. Compare that to Celestial Being who violated pretty much everyone's airspace with impunity.

And by the end of the series, everyone has national affiliations and public identities. Any secrets they do have are nationally kept and exchanged between alliances.

I believe he was referring to their method of operations, not backgrounds etc.


More or less the contradictory philosophy and actions of "using conflict to solve conflict" found in both groups


In that regard they are more or less the same

[monster]

Originally Posted by Skye629

I believe he was referring to their method of operations, not backgrounds etc.


More or less the contradictory philosophy and actions of "using conflict to solve conflict" found in both groups


In that regard they are more or less the same

The Archangel is no different than other military groups in that they will use force to ensure a favorable outcome in battles that concern them, with one notable exception at Berlin.

"Using conflict to solve conflict" is more specific to the Celestial Beings in that they conduct active armed interventions to position themselves as a common threat to the world. Thus, they attempted to negate the need for preexisting conflicts by creating a new, bigger conflict.

[RES-01 Perses Gundam]

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Terrorrism is a stretch. Terrorrist use fear to coerce people or governments.

The Archangel never did that. They escorted the Orb head of state to the battlefield so she could ask them to back off. And when no one listened, they just tried to prevent deaths.

They never tried to force the EA or ZAFT to stop the war, even though they wish they would. They never tried to scare the world into uniting against them, or beat them into peace. They brought Cagalli to order HER forces to stand down, then tried to prevent as many deaths as they could in those battles.

They're officially unaffiliated with any known army, but that isn't terrorrism in and of itself.

As for the villain poll... They ARE antagonists. Maybe it's a mistranslation. Char works better as an antagonist than a straight up villain too...

Your argument is valid. If the real world actually bothers to abide by conventions and definitions.

But no. The 2nd Bloody Valentine War was initially a contest between ZAFT and EA. And it so happens that Orb aligned itself with EA. Then a ship that's supposed to be Orb's sticks its nose into the war, not only do they not fight on their supposed 'comrades' side, their actions also don't seem to be entirely in your interests. Its akin to entering a war without declaring your allegiance. You know Archangel's not a bunch of terrorists (duh) because you are in a third party position, Shinn, Talia and Durandal were fighting a war and you can't expect them to welcome a renegade ship with open arms unless their 100% loyalty is guaranteed.

If Archangel could betray Orb's official position in the war, who says lightning wouldn't strike twice and it betrays ZAFT as well once their interests no longer coincide?

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by RES-01 Perses Gundam

Your argument is valid. If the real world actually bothers to abide by conventions and definitions.

But no. The 2nd Bloody Valentine War was initially a contest between ZAFT and EA. And it so happens that Orb aligned itself with EA. Then a ship that's supposed to be Orb's sticks its nose into the war, not only do they not fight on their supposed 'comrades' side, their actions also don't seem to be entirely in your interests. Its akin to entering a war without declaring your allegiance. You know Archangel's not a bunch of terrorists (duh) because you are in a third party position, Shinn, Talia and Durandal were fighting a war and you can't expect them to welcome a renegade ship with open arms unless their 100% loyalty is guaranteed.

If Archangel could betray Orb's official position in the war, who says lightning wouldn't strike twice and it betrays ZAFT as well once their interests no longer coincide?

1- his answer for why kira in Villain poll and not people like CB and wing boy in it
not

2- since when AA betray Orb's official position in the war?
you can't betray one you didn't join > the official you talk about didn't even know about them (Seiran family)
(at that point they didn't even join Orb)

3- why ZAFT need to welcome them?
Like I said, his answer for why they are in Villain poll not why ZAFT attack AA and Kira
>
just because they joined the war as third faction that doesn't mean the are Villain while people like CB and wing boy in hero poll

[Hagoshod]

Originally Posted by monster

The Archangel is no different than other military groups

Except for the fact the Archangel / Terminal / Goddess Lacus-sama Fanclub is not a legitimate military recognized by any nation.

Originally Posted by monster

What I did was to point out that Durandal, by his own words, viewed anyone who opposed the Destiny Plan as enemies of humanity, that Orb did oppose the Destiny Plan, and that Durandal was wiling to use a weapon of mass destruction, like the Requiem, to destroy his enemies.

But Orb wasn't actually Durandal's enemy for opposing the Destiny plan. They had already turned their own dumb asses into his enemy by antagonizing him when he gave them fair warning to hand over Djibril, having a temper tantrum over him DEFILING OUR VIRGIN HOLY LAND when he turned out to be RIGHT in his accusations, and then using their latest stolen Gundams to practically aid in the escape of said war criminal so he could use the opportunity to turn around and immediately kill millions of Durandal's people.

If Lacus is so concerned after death lasers in general, where was her or Orb's humanitarian effort to help ZAFT take down Djibril and Requiem? Oh, right, there wasn't one because they were already biased toward insisting Durandal was somehow the villain here.

That doesn't make Durandal the aggressor. It just shows how much Orb and the Lacus goons have fucked up foreign relations with their meddling. As long as they refuse to admit or even understand why this is their fault, they are a threat to the rest of the world.

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Terrorrism is a stretch. Terrorrist use fear to coerce people or governments.

The Archangel never did that.

Except for, oh, the constantly appearing out of nowhere attacking at random screaming "STOP FIGHTING RIGHT NOW OR WE'LL AIMLESSLY CHOP ALL YOUR ARMS OFF BECAUSE WE SAY SO" part.

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Remember, Minerva was LOSING the second battle to Orb when Kira intervened.

Two seconds away from blowing a Tannhauser hole through the Orb fleet is not losing.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

You can't demonize Kira and Lacus as villains while giving a pass to the other groups.

Um, but it's the exact opposite way around.

The Operation Meteor guys in Wing are a sect of fanatical terrorists in the context of the story, and the rest of the universe treats them as such.

Celestial Being in 00 are a sect of fanatical terrorists in the context of the story, and the rest the universe treats them as such.

The Archangel crew in Destiny are a sect of fanatical terrorists in the context of the story, but the rest of the universe treats them as the chaste and noble saviors of mankind and the only shining light left in the world.

The double-standard comes from the fact the general public in CE (particularly Destiny-era CE) are very, very stupid sheep.

[Gundamx]

AA been accept by nation president
(think of them same as junk guild from gundam or Black water from USA but with more power/stronger)

They have enough power to do army work but they are not nation legitimate military nor terrorist group

2- if ZAFT done nothing than Kira and AA will take Djibril themselves like they done with Destroy
(ZAFT move first since they are ready while AA group still in Orb which was in chaos after that small war where Seiran family haven't even tell it's own civilians about it...)

3- Orb was actually Durandal's enemy for opposing the Destiny plan.
because after Djibril left Talia said they no longer have reason to fight them which Durandal accept
if not than they will continue that war)

4- since when ship that have nation president in it = terrorists ship?
it's more of private guard ( like how most USA embassy in middle east use private guard than official solders )

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

But Orb wasn't actually Durandal's enemy for opposing the Destiny plan. They had already turned their own dumb asses into his enemy by antagonizing him when he gave them fair warning to hand over Djibril, having a temper tantrum over him DEFILING OUR VIRGIN HOLY LAND when he turned out to be RIGHT in his accusations, and then using their latest stolen Gundams to practically aid in the escape of said war criminal so he could use the opportunity to turn around and immediately kill millions of Durandal's people.

Except that's not remotely what happened. Cagalli and company knew Djbril was there, and they knew Zaft was right to demand him, but because of Yuna's takeover they couldn't really do much to stop him, until Akatsuki was unveiled, AA was repaired and SF had shown up, which by then was too late to stop the battle thanks to Yuna's stupidity. Zaft meanwhile is out to conquer Orb while they are at it, refused Cagalli's request for a ceasefire so Cagalli's faction had to both keep Zaft from invading while also trying to catch Djbril.

Unless of course you think they should have just rolled over and let Zaft conquer Orb, which would mean Durandal would then basically have total control of the entire world.

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

If Lacus is so concerned after death lasers in general, where was her or Orb's humanitarian effort to help ZAFT take down Djibril and Requiem? Oh, right, there wasn't one because they were already biased toward insisting Durandal was somehow the villain here.

Which is somewhat understandable because when Cagalli went on worldwide tv to apologize and explain exactly why Orb helped him (namely that they were in the process of kicking out the Logos allied regime and Zaft might not have understood that) Durandal proceeded to jam Orb's communications and had Meer go on to start going on about what evil nasty Logos supporters everyone in Orb is. I can't imagine why they still didn't trust him when he basically forcible silenced them and slandered them in front of the world. Apparantly Durandal doesn't think other nations on earth should be allow to have an opinion on Orb that isn't a Zaft controlled story.

Which is pretty much how it went in Destiny. Everytime they started to think they might be wrong about Durandal, he'd do something like send hit squads after them, or frame Athrun, or use dirty media tricks, or fire a giant space laser. So yeah. They do think Durandal is the villain. And they're right.

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

That doesn't make Durandal the aggressor. It just shows how much Orb and the Lacus goons have fucked up foreign relations with their meddling. As long as they refuse to admit or even understand what this is their fault, they are a threat to the rest of the world.

If by threat to the rest of the world you mean, not lie down and die because it would be convinient to Durandal. Because that's really all they'd been doing.
And the nation of Scandinavia didn't lay a finger to Zaft and that's still being marked an enemy of mankind for not wanting to join Durandal's plan.

So yeah, Durandal is the aggressor. Astray even implies he started the whole war in the first place.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Are you sure?

Because in THIS war, I remember them being involved in three engagements before Angel Down and the Minerva benefitted from TWO and took minimal losses on the other.

The loss of a warship's most powerful weapon mid-battle, and the loss of both an ace pilot and an expensive Second Stage Gundam aren't exactly what one would call "minimum" losses. Certainly not as bad as it could be, but still significant losses.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

That doesn't make Durandal the aggressor. It just shows how much Orb and the Lacus goons have fucked up foreign relations with their meddling. As long as they refuse to admit or even understand what this is their fault, they are a threat to the rest of the world.

you realize the main reason they were forced back into the war was because Durandal sent assassins after them while they were civilians, right? ZAFT in general was correct to try to take them out since they were becoming a problem but Durandal wasn't since he only wants them out of the way to clean up the mess he made.