AnimeSuki Forums

Kyuusai · 2006-07-27, 17:43

I think there are a couple of issues here:

Holding the sins of the ancestors against the children--or holding the sins of the past against those who have reformed
The children of those who did those horrible, horrible things didn't have a choice in what their forefathers did. As well, many of those who performed in those acts or supported them realize just how wrong they were.

Viewing a group collectively
The laws of Japan, the acts of its former government, the language, the culture, and the views and actions of each individual person are all separate things. It's true that bad experiences can taint our emotions, but to group them together as one thing isn't correct.
I've been barked at by an angry dog, and family members have been attacked by angry dogs, but not all dogs are ill-tempered. I still enjoy the species, and I love certain individual dogs.

Not realizing that some people simply don't know any better
Japanese xenophobia is terrible, and it causes me no small amount of depression at times, but some times that's all they've been raised to know. I've known many Japanese people who've quickly overcome it, though. For others, it's not that they want to be mean, bigoted people... they just don't know how to cope.
There are jerks in every category, though. For them, I just pray they'll see the light.
This goes not only for xenophobia, but also other cultural prejudices and incorrect group-think.

Hating
Hating doesn't hurt the people being hated, it just hurts the person doing the hating. No one needs that kind of stress in their life, and hating never teaches the hated person (or people) to grow and overcome their wrongdoing.
Love does, though. You can feel righteous indignation over the past, but if you can learn to forgive and to love, you'll be a person with a free heart.

Yukinokesshou, it sounds like your heart is in the right place. You want to love a culture and people, and you also want to honor your family and their ways and desires. Those are good things.

You can respect the loss of your father's side of the family without sharing in their hate, though, and perhaps even help them overcome their pain and hatred. Although perhaps flaunting your Japanese interests would be in poor taste.

For what it's worth, my grandfather fought in WWII against the Japanese, although on the American side. Even as an old man, he had a lot of prejudice and vitriol for the Japanese, but he softened when we had Japanese marry into the family. He proudly wore his Japanese clothing given to him as gifts, and learned to love the Japanese people.
Perhaps your father and that side of the family won't come that far, but I tell you that to show that people in that position can change.

Supergrunch · 2006-07-27, 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukinokesshou

(Current thought: Will there be decent xiaolongbao and sashimi in England?)

I very much doubt it; I've never even heard of either. Which university are you going to?

In England, I have a feeling that there is a little more dislike of Japan (mostly among old people) than in America. I myself like Japan, and am slightly persecuted for it, although more because my liking is considered weird than because of xenophobia.

I think that in general, most people can be pushed into being harsh, especially during warfare, even if it is not "pushed" in the traditional sense. Various psycholical studies have shown this, in particular the Millgram (sp?) experiment and another experiment done in Germany (I forget its name) where people roleplaying as guards became incredibly hostile towards their "prisoners". I think that all countries have so-called "unforgiveable" acts in their past; some countries, such as Japan and Germany, have undergone these acts more recently. It doesn't make the countrymen any worse. However, failure to admit to these acts is bad, but I'd imagine that the majority of Japanese people would not agree with the "whitewashing" of history books.

Ombrenuit · 2006-07-27, 20:11

Well certainly, you can deteste a government but not a people. I understand the issue with the history books and how the legislature endorsed those. It truly is sad, and something politically that must be dealt with. Then again, this doesn't mean that the Japanese people as a whole hold such views or believe such things just as I do not hold the views of my own government or endorse everything they are doing.

I hate politics with a burning passion.

arias · 2006-07-27, 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supergrunch

However, failure to admit to these acts is bad, but I'd imagine that the majority of Japanese people would not agree with the "whitewashing" of history books.

If so, they need to make continuous efforts to send this message through -- using the net or otherwise. We can't just be charitable and assume that for most of the Japanese population.

raikage · 2006-07-27, 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaFool

The German apologetic approach also has problems in that they are trying to get their young people to be proud of their country and come to terms with all its history.

I see nothing wrong with that approach.

Every first-world (and probably second-world and third-world) country on this planet has done something...questionable.

You don't have to agree with every single thing your country has ever done to take pride in it, much like how you can still acknowledge that, say, your mom cheated on your dad yet still love her regardless.

Supergrunch · 2006-07-28, 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by raikage

You don't have to agree with every single thing your country has ever done to take pride in it, much like how you can still acknowledge that, say, your mom cheated on your dad yet still love her regardless.

Cheating on someone isn't exactly an equivalent act to crimes of warfare. Some things are harder to forgive or come to terms with.

Kyuusai · 2006-07-28, 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supergrunch

Cheating on someone isn't exactly an equivalent act to crimes of warfare. Some things are harder to forgive or come to terms with.

But it doesn't mean we shouldn't try, nor does it make it OK to hold the crimes of the few against those who had nothing to do with it.

Usuratonkachi · 2006-07-28, 11:07

Might I suggest that this topic comes to an end? I've slant-read all the posts from the beginning, and I don't really see any progession. Blame Japan, defend China, defend Japan, blame others...really....

Simply talking about the rape and torture in China brings up topics of the atomic bomb and Pearl Harbour. Everything just goes around in a circle. I've seen discussions like this quite a lot in various different forums but none of them ever come up with an appropriate solution.

Quite frankly, I don't really care that Koizumi visits Yasukuni Jinja every year or that the Japanese textbooks are trying to whitewash the crimes of the war. Let them believe what they want, and if anyone doesn't like that, they can try and change the government. As for me, nothing so far has gotten me angry or upset enough to try and stick my head into politics.

There could be more that I want to say concerning most of the subjects that were raised in the thread, but my main concern is that this whole topic is closed down. I would even be relieved if it would be changed from 'discuss the goods and bads of the Japanese war history' to 'discuss how the tense relations between China/Korea and Japan can be solved'. What's the point in us, the next generation in society (well, most of us, I should assume), bickering about things that our fathers or grandfathers have argued about?

I'm sorry if this is completely off topic from the debates that were going on. And I won't hide it: I'm Japanese. Maybe I favour the Japanese side of this discussion. Bite me. I don't think I've said a word that supports either side.

Yukinokesshou · 2006-07-28, 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usuratonkachi

I would even be relieved if it would be changed from 'discuss the goods and bads of the Japanese war history' to 'discuss how the tense relations between China/Korea and Japan can be solved'.

Basically, that's what I tried to do.

I won't mind if this thread is closed. But before it comes to an end, I must say that this has been the most civil and level-headed discussion on this topic that I have ever seen. Thanks to everyone who participated!

P.S. I guess I am a little disappointed at one thing, though... the defensive tone of certain Japanese contributors. Come on, peeps, you KNOW that all of us want to be friends with you; none of us here are blaming you, none of us here are rabid Chinese nationalists. Besides, every country has its faults. I'm Chinese, but I don't appreciate the Communist Party nor the nationalism of many mainlanders. I'm sorry for the rowdy behaviour of Beijingers during the last China-Japan football match. China has its faults. So does Japan (and I'm talking about the present day here). Don't be so defensive about these things!

(Besides, kj1980 never replied to my PM. Grrrrrr.)

Heck, maybe I just don't understand nationalism. I personally wouldn't raise a finger if Hong Kong reverted to British rule (a sheer impossibility)

arias · 2006-07-28, 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukinokesshou

P.S. I guess I am a little disappointed at one thing, though... the defensive tone of certain Japanese contributors. Come on, peeps, you KNOW that all of us want to be friends with you; none of us here are blaming you, none of us here are rabid Chinese nationalists. Besides, every country has its faults. I'm Chinese, but I don't appreciate the Communist Party nor the nationalism of many mainlanders. I'm sorry for the rowdy behaviour of Beijingers during the last China-Japan football match. China has its faults. So does Japan (and I'm talking about the present day here). Don't be so defensive about these things!

(Besides, kj1980 never replied to my PM. Grrrrrr.)

kj1980 virtually never replies to PM (perhaps to other mods and stuff) so I wouldn't hold it against him at all. He also frequently carries an elitist attitude, so I wouldn't be suprised if he thought we were bullshitting in this thread.

Regardless, if the discussion were about nationalism in general, then surely we'll have alot to talk about for the Chinese. Our history is also littered with various problems (Tibet).. but of course, we only need to look to the title of this thread to understand what's relevant to the discussion.

luchamasta · 2006-07-28, 13:06

From what I've seen on the Internet in general, there are virtually no input from the Japanese in this kind of discussion, most likely due to the language barrier. And it's usually the English speakers of Chinese or Korean ethnicity/descent who are most vocal about this issue, so the discussions don't really ellaborate from the "Japan should apologize" rhetoric with some saying "no we should get over it".

xris · 2006-07-28, 14:00

I think it's time this thread came to a close. If you've been participating in the discussion and want it to continue then sorry but like so many similar threads before, the arguments just go round in circles and don't really get anywhere.

This seems to be a common problem when "personal" issues are posted, I'm afraid the simple solution would be not to allow such threads in the first place. Sorry.

2006-07-27, 17:43	Link #81
Kyuusai 9wiki Scanlator Join Date: May 2006 Location: State of Denial	I think there are a couple of issues here: Holding the sins of the ancestors against the children--or holding the sins of the past against those who have reformed The children of those who did those horrible, horrible things didn't have a choice in what their forefathers did. As well, many of those who performed in those acts or supported them realize just how wrong they were. Viewing a group collectively The laws of Japan, the acts of its former government, the language, the culture, and the views and actions of each individual person are all separate things. It's true that bad experiences can taint our emotions, but to group them together as one thing isn't correct. I've been barked at by an angry dog, and family members have been attacked by angry dogs, but not all dogs are ill-tempered. I still enjoy the species, and I love certain individual dogs. Not realizing that some people simply don't know any better Japanese xenophobia is terrible, and it causes me no small amount of depression at times, but some times that's all they've been raised to know. I've known many Japanese people who've quickly overcome it, though. For others, it's not that they want to be mean, bigoted people... they just don't know how to cope. There are jerks in every category, though. For them, I just pray they'll see the light. This goes not only for xenophobia, but also other cultural prejudices and incorrect group-think. Hating Hating doesn't hurt the people being hated, it just hurts the person doing the hating. No one needs that kind of stress in their life, and hating never teaches the hated person (or people) to grow and overcome their wrongdoing. Love does, though. You can feel righteous indignation over the past, but if you can learn to forgive and to love, you'll be a person with a free heart. Yukinokesshou, it sounds like your heart is in the right place. You want to love a culture and people, and you also want to honor your family and their ways and desires. Those are good things. You can respect the loss of your father's side of the family without sharing in their hate, though, and perhaps even help them overcome their pain and hatred. Although perhaps flaunting your Japanese interests would be in poor taste. For what it's worth, my grandfather fought in WWII against the Japanese, although on the American side. Even as an old man, he had a lot of prejudice and vitriol for the Japanese, but he softened when we had Japanese marry into the family. He proudly wore his Japanese clothing given to him as gifts, and learned to love the Japanese people. Perhaps your father and that side of the family won't come that far, but I tell you that to show that people in that position can change.

2006-07-27, 20:11	Link #83
Ombrenuit Day Dreams... Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: A wish to live in Paris Age: 35	Well certainly, you can deteste a government but not a people. I understand the issue with the history books and how the legislature endorsed those. It truly is sad, and something politically that must be dealt with. Then again, this doesn't mean that the Japanese people as a whole hold such views or believe such things just as I do not hold the views of my own government or endorse everything they are doing. I hate politics with a burning passion.

2006-07-28, 11:07	Link #88
Usuratonkachi An Idiot Join Date: Jun 2006	Might I suggest that this topic comes to an end? I've slant-read all the posts from the beginning, and I don't really see any progession. Blame Japan, defend China, defend Japan, blame others...really.... Simply talking about the rape and torture in China brings up topics of the atomic bomb and Pearl Harbour. Everything just goes around in a circle. I've seen discussions like this quite a lot in various different forums but none of them ever come up with an appropriate solution. Quite frankly, I don't really care that Koizumi visits Yasukuni Jinja every year or that the Japanese textbooks are trying to whitewash the crimes of the war. Let them believe what they want, and if anyone doesn't like that, they can try and change the government. As for me, nothing so far has gotten me angry or upset enough to try and stick my head into politics. There could be more that I want to say concerning most of the subjects that were raised in the thread, but my main concern is that this whole topic is closed down. I would even be relieved if it would be changed from 'discuss the goods and bads of the Japanese war history' to 'discuss how the tense relations between China/Korea and Japan can be solved'. What's the point in us, the next generation in society (well, most of us, I should assume), bickering about things that our fathers or grandfathers have argued about? I'm sorry if this is completely off topic from the debates that were going on. And I won't hide it: I'm Japanese. Maybe I favour the Japanese side of this discussion. Bite me. I don't think I've said a word that supports either side.

2006-07-28, 13:06	Link #91
luchamasta Member Join Date: May 2004	From what I've seen on the Internet in general, there are virtually no input from the Japanese in this kind of discussion, most likely due to the language barrier. And it's usually the English speakers of Chinese or Korean ethnicity/descent who are most vocal about this issue, so the discussions don't really ellaborate from the "Japan should apologize" rhetoric with some saying "no we should get over it".

2006-07-28, 14:00	Link #92
xris Just call me Ojisan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: U.K. Hampshire	I think it's time this thread came to a close. If you've been participating in the discussion and want it to continue then sorry but like so many similar threads before, the arguments just go round in circles and don't really get anywhere. This seems to be a common problem when "personal" issues are posted, I'm afraid the simple solution would be not to allow such threads in the first place. Sorry.