[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[AuraTwilight]

It's definitely not A, since no one discusses it being a thing that exists in the Forgeries.

B and C seems to come down to a matter of personal interpretation.

[budspencer]

Are the episodes 7 and 8 also "written" they are completely different from the first 6? Is episode 7 just a metaphorical representation then of Ikuko asking Tohya (Will) to check the answers to her theories about the Truth of Rokkenjima and Sayo. And episode 8 of Ange thinking "do i want to read the Diary of Eva" and when she did read it basically just was desperate in her heart, overcame it, and asked Ikuko in real life not to make it public. So that would mean episodes 7 and 8 are not really in the meta world just metaphors maybe im just completely wrong.

[budspencer]

Since Ryukishi said in an interview that "The manga is not a personal interpretation it is the official answer to Umineko" i think we can consider the manga canon also. In the end of the second to last chapter of Episode 8 Beatrice commits suicide (which really happened in Prime?) and a second after that immediately she is in Purgatory with Battler and starts playing the game Legend of the Golden witch with him. So that leads me to believe the Meta world is a real Purgatory where souls of dead people gather to find peace (to access the Golden Land which is Heaven). So i think the meta world story is probably NOT in the forgeries since Beatrice started playing with Battler a few moments after she died (according to the chapter) i dont think she foresaw that ( her and Battlers death and his amnesia at least would be very hard to foresee) in Legend of the witch since she wrote that story BEFORE the incident on Rokkenjima.

Now on the other hand i also think the meta world apart from being a purgatory can also be accessed by living people like Ange and Tohya who have unfinished business so to speak with the people in purgatory (the whole ushiromiya family) and are trying to help the souls in purgatory to reach the golden land (Heaven) and Beatrice did announce to reopen the Golden Land since Battlers soul rejoined them at the end again. Also Ange and Tohyas souls entered it to cope with their own problems in the world of the living. Just my opinion

[Uberzaki]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's definitely not A, since no one discusses it being a thing that exists in the Forgeries.

B and C seems to come down to a matter of personal interpretation.

Yo AT, how is it going?

I remember you saying that you did not believe my idea that the Kanji had anything to do with Lucifer's parallel with... Krauss I think it was?

What would you consider an example of Ryukishi pushing such a thing if it were true that Rudolf was Lucifer at any point in time in the series?

[AuraTwilight]

Uh. Run that question by me again?

[Uberzaki]

Okay, I will word it differently. You said, that if that were true, Ryukishi would have pushed it. I would like an example of what you think would be of Ryukishi... pushing a naming convention of sorts?

Assuming I wanted to convince you of my argument.

Does that make sense?

[AuraTwilight]

Uh, probably with a pun that fit his on-the-nose style, like the 34=Lambdadelta=Takano thing. His puns aren't very obscure, and there's no significant naming theme or quirk between Lucifer and Rudolf, or indeed between any of the Sisters of Purgatory and the Siblings.

[Ma-rion]

I deleted this post because I think there are too many flaws there. (even though chaos_alpha is still quoting me)

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Ma-rion

Hello everyone, Im new to this forum, but I would like to share some ideas of mine. Ill try to not write too much, so Ill leave out the explanations:

1. The world is hell where everything is concurrent.
2. Episode 1 and Episode 6 overlap, Battler/Beato killing Erika in the duel is seen as the duel between Natsuhi/Erika and Beatrice.
3. Natsuhi or better says the evil witch inside of Natsuhi is the culprit, thats why she is the "bullied kid" in every game , has no blessed name (western name) and is not allowed to wear the eagle
4. None of the Ushiromiyas exist, they are all costumes the souls wear. Meaning: they all switch around in the course of the games.
5. Kanon plays "Ushiromiya Battler", Natsuhi plays "Beato" (normally)
6. Since Kanon was already in the loop long before episode 1 began, he went crazy and his heart died, with the evil witch taking over his "room"/costume. Kanons soul if stuffed into the Beato costume. Meaning: From episode 1 onwards "Battler" is "Beato" and "Beato" is "Battler".
7. Natsuhi is the second Beatrice, and she takes revenge on Kanon and abuses him Kinzos story)
8. The world is dreamt up by Kanon when he is on the verge of death because Natsuhi accidently used too much force abusing him and smashed his head
9. In the world all is concurrent and everything is in a loop: Battler becomes Kinzo who abuses the second Beatrice who is Natsuhi and makes Natsuhi throw out a child that is himself, he also has other children like Rudolf, Kyrie etc. who in turn have Battler as their child
10. After Natsuhis abuse, Kanon/Battler/Kinzo abuses Natsuhi as revenge and in return Natsuhi abuses Kanon/Battler, resulting in an eternal torture.
11. In episode 6, Kanon/Battler plays as Beato/Erika etc. while Natsuhis soul is inside of the Battler puppet
12. There are three Natsuhis in this world: Natsuhi, Shannon (young) and Maria, resulting from the three choices Natsuhi can make (test episode 4). Only Maria is the good choice.
13. Maria/Beato/Ikuko are costumes for the good Natsuhi. And they write a story about themselves writing a story about themselves writing a story,....
14. On mount purgatory, Natshuhi and Kanon were mixed up (black and white), to get to know each other and to be able to forgive each other. Both of them are going through what the other one went through- Beato being Battler and Battler being Beato.
15. Kanons/Battlers sin is forgetting to belief in god after learning a certain truth and eating the fruit of knowledge. falling from heaven to paradise
16. Maria is the mother of Jesus, Kanon/Battler created the world, he is "god" of the world (-> Natsuhi is Kanons mother)
17. As soon as god believes in magic, magic becomes real

Have far in are you with reading Umineko? Have you already read Episode 7 and 8?

[Ma-rion]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Have far in are you with reading Umineko? Have you already read Episode 7 and 8?

Hmm, yes. Do you ask because of Sayos confession? I have, but I always thought that there are two stories written at the same time. For example in episode 7, the "magic" Will receives from Bern to look into the hearts of someone being money someone receives for spying. So I always read the story with another reality-meaning, the same applies to the last episodes (same for the manga). We also have the "body language" the characters use (closing left eye and right eye for example) and lines that have to be dubbed in the story. Those aren't explained in this ending.

I missed to ask a question before. Concerning the ------- (in the manga) or . . . . (in the VN). To my understanding, those lines need to be filled by the reader. I think this is what Ronoves barrier of secrey from episode 3 refers to. But my Japanese is not that good, so I wonder if I even can fill them out. I wanted to ask you if someone already did this?

[Ma-rion]

(partly and probably, I should say. )

Hello yet again, after having speculated into the wrong direction the last time, I think I made a huge progress Took me a lot of effort! Id be glad if you read it, since I dont think Im all that wrong.

Even though Ryukishi said he did want everyone to get to the answer by him/herself, I believe that the story is not given the credit it deserves with the manga-ending. But there may still be parts that are lacking, so Id be more than happy if you guys could help me

Of course, a story as big as Umineko cant be explained in a few sentences. So my solution is loooong. But: It will certainly be worth your while, if you give it a chance. Its only part 1 for now since Im tired as hell.

[Ma-rion]

Deleted because of too many changes

[AuraTwilight]

Can you tl;dr? I don't understand a word of that link.

[Ma-rion]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Can you tl;dr? I don't understand a word of that link.

Yes, my understanding is like this:

- We are inside the mind of a person who has gone crazy after being kidnapped and abused for many years
- this person looks inside a mirror and finds his one and only friend there - himself - and he sees this self as a girl and falls in love with her (=personality B)
- he invents going into the world of the mirror and meeting many other friends there
- those friends are the furniture from his room, his cousins are for example the sofa and the chair - the only two funiture we still see inside the limits of his heart(=meta-room)
- the Ushiromiya family doesnt exist, but many of them represent his kidnappers, for example Rudolf smoked like Beatrice
- Hideyoshi is actually "Hide" (english) Yoshi or Yoshua - his one personality hides in the mirror and lets his mirror personality take over when he is abused ("always seen as diving into an ocean")
- because of some "joke" (sarcasm), his other personality did, he went nuts and in the course of the game is hitting the mirror over and over again while he cant get out of the dream of being on Rokkenjima
- first he invented being Ushiromiya Battler, but this person always lost in the games
- so after going even more crazy, his other self comes to help him on a "white boat", which is probably "white baord" (bo-to -> bo-do)
- he then switched subconsciously to Beatrice and tortures his other self, still believing that its him
- at the end he switches back to being Battler
- the two personalities represent the left and right arm
- all the games are "rehashed" memories, because he cant get out of his dreams (-> food metaphor)

Sorry, I cant make it shorter

[Mr. Dent]

Ma-rion, alternate theories are a fun way to re-experience Umineko, and they're a huge part of what the fanbase used to be, however I have to say that you might want to reconsider posting every theory here immediately. Your theory has completely changed directions more than once since your initial post, and it's kind of cluttered.

I also have to admit, I don't see any reason to think that your theories are true. They don't really add anything to the narrative, and indeed, appear only to use the actual text of the novels only tangentially. The answers you've given aren't to the questions Ryukishi07 asked, and use evidence that most likely wasn't intended to be evidence in the first place.

Kei Natsumi, while a wonderful mangaka, drew her interpretation of the text of novels. While Ryukishi did tell her who the culprit was and asked her to make specific changes to scenes, he ultimately wasn't the one who created the manga's art assets, and I think citing them as evidence, especially when the imagery isn't at all out of place or conspicuous in it's original usage, won't do too good a job backing up a theory for the game.

I hope this didn't come across as rude or discouraging, that wasn't my intention. I think theorizing is an important part of being an Umineko fan, but I'm really not sure about the direction your theory goes in. I think you're trying to hard to make every aspect of Umineko a puzzle to be solved- Umineko is a story about mysteries, one that's full of puzzles, but the narration isn't always one of them, and neither is every line of dialogue, or every name, or every oblique reference. Sometimes the narration is simply the narration, the dialogue is simply the dialogue, and the names are simply names.

You especially have to keep in mind that the story of Umineko wasn't always set in stone- While the mysteries themselves always had a solution, the story underwent massive changes as it went along- Rudolf and Kyrie are highly unlikely to be a cipher for Erika Furudo when Erika Furudo wasn't supposed to exist when Ryukishi was writing the Question Arcs, and especially once you consider that Erika's name is just Rika's from Higurashi with some slight alterations.

[Ma-rion]

@Mr Dent

Dont worry, I have taken no offense. I might have posted a bit too much in the last days, which is simply due to the fact the the following months, I wont have much time, so I intended to put everything out at once. I apologize.

Concerning the randomness and the coincidences - I believe we have to agree to disagree here. There are three reasons:

Spoiler:

1.) It is said explicitly in the story, that the way the characters die etc. are not random, but that there are a lot of questions left that still need to be answered - and putting attention to details makes one able to answer them

2.) there are simply too many metaphors that are consistently used with the same meaning: the moon, the sweetfish; the books; the ring; the spiral; the north pole - not only can these be found consistently throughout the story, they also have the same meaning in Higurashi, they form a whole where the pieces fit far too perfectly together to be coincidental and with this you have absolutely no problem to read Tsubasa/Hane (e.g. where people were still asking who Bern is writing her letter to, the answer to this falls from the sky); (minor detail: Frederika in Higurashi did the same thing another character did in Umineko, so I have no problem with Ryukishi using this name from the get go, even if Erika was not supposed to appear)

3.) the games are backwards, and they can be repeated over and over since they dont have a true beginning (->Beato's "ring"/magic circle/clock), but Episode 1 can be considered the ending. I dont want to go further into this now, but my point is: even if there were massive changes in the story, it was obviously written in a way where the ending was already laid out. Therefore, no matter how much changes were made, the main storyline was planned out from the start; this is nothing strange, since Higurashi and Umineko lead to almost the same solution and since Higurashi was written before. So R. didnt even need to think up a completely new story.
Btw, yet again we have one of those (at first sight) random sentences with Ikuko saying: "If I get stuck in writing, I start with the ending. This way I can also add many hints". You may want to say that these are all coincidences, I did think so at first too, until I read the story for the nth time and found there were simply too many to overlook them and they made perfect sense, ALL of them did, "every line of dialogue, or every name, or every oblique reference"

And even though my theory changed, the main part of it (which I didnt post) was never touched.

TL;DR I believe we have to agree on disagreeing here Let me apologize once again for the posts!

[Mr. Dent]

There's no need to apologize. Have you tried posting on Rokkenjima? It's a forum dedicated to Umineko and 07th Expansion, and they have an alternative theories thread that might interest you. They've kind of been dead lately, so, even if I don't quite follow your theory, it might lead to more constructive conversation about alternate theories there. (https://forum.rokkenjima.org)

[Ma-rion]

Thank you very much! Ill try this! But here is not that much activity either right? I guess it's understandable considering that Ryukishi gave a "solution" in the manga.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Ma-rion

Thank you very much! Ill try this! But here is not that much activity either right? I guess it's understandable considering that Ryukishi gave a "solution" in the manga.

The forum is for the most part for new readers of Umineko. There is still enough to discuss and theorize for the people who haven't read all of Umineko yet.

[Benkai_Debussy]

So I'm in what I think is the latter part of Episode 6 and have a pretty great theory:

Battler is the son of "Beatrice", who was Kinzo's mistress. Battler survives the fall (or whatever) that killed "Beatrice" and is adopted by Rudolph. 6 years before the events of the VN, Battler forms the "concept" Beatrice and bases her appearance off of the portrait of Beatrice in the mansion (that is actually a portrait of his mom!). Battler falls in love with his imaginary friend/concept Beatrice, unaware that he has based her appearance off of the appearance of his own mother. Battler's "sin" is that he unknowingly wanted to bang his mom.

The series is actually an Oedipus Rex allegory and the new Beatrice being in love with Battler, who she calls "Father" is actually the appropriate punishment for his own incestuous love.

(I'm not actually serious, but the idea is still really funny.)