[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Judoh

The red doesn't give her location after those four are discovered.

Not my point. She's confirmed to be with Nanjo and Gohda in the lounge during a time when the four 'victims' are supposed to be sleeping upstairs.

Originally Posted by Judoh

Plus Genji was one of the other victims in episode 5 was he not?

Right. So Erika must be either Kumasawa or Shannon. ...Probably Shannon.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Right. So Erika must be either Kumasawa or Shannon. ...Probably Shannon.

Beato does say the seal on the window is only confining Erika...

[Jan-Poo]

Erika can't be George in EP5, because George's death has been confirmed in red long before midnight. Of course the same goes for Genji, Maria, Rosa, Jessica.

At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion
-at 24:00, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji were in a corridor on the second floor of the mansion. All the remaining people were at the family conference in the dining hall.
- Of all the people in the dining hall, not one of them left the dining hall until 1:00 AM...!
-After 24:00, Erika was with Nanjo the whole time until 3:00 AM.

Erika can't be anyone that was in the Mansion at 24:00

So that leaves Nanjo, Kumasawa and Gohda

but:

-In other words, after Kumasawa returned to the guesthouse, she never went to the second floor until morning.
-In other words, after Gohda returned to the guesthouse, he never went up to the second floor until morning.

If Erika was either of them she could never go to the second floor

So that leaves Nanjo but

-Nanjo had the alibi of being with Erika until 3:00 AM.

can being in company of yourself be considered an alibi?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

-All the remaining people were at the family conference in the dining hall.
- Of all the people in the dining hall, not one of them left the dining hall until 1:00 AM...!

Erika can't be anyone that was in the Mansion at 24:00.

This has been brought up before, but "all the remaining people" only includes the people not listed by name in that series of reds. Because of this, if one person has two names, "Erika" can be anyone supposed to be in the dining hall; that is, either Hideyoshi, Eva, Battler, Rudolf, Kyrie, Kanon, or Shannon.

Assuming consistency across episodes, neither Hideyoshi, Eva, Battler, Rudolf, Kyrie, nor Kanon can be Erika, as proven earlier. If Erika isn't a real individual but rather a name or title, the only person she can be is Shannon.

[Jan-Poo]

True.

So in the end if we cross the two episodes we are only left Shannon.

And as I pointed out in the past Shannon and Kanon shouldn't have any reason to stay in the dining room during the family conference....


In the end everything brings me to: Erika-Kanon-Shannon-Beatrice... being the same person.

But how can that be possible...

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

True.

So in the end if we cross the two episodes we are only left Shannon.

And as I pointed out in the past Shannon and Kanon shouldn't have any reason to stay in the dining room during the family conference....


In the end everything brings me to: Erika-Kanon-Shannon-Beatrice... being the same person.

But how can that be possible...

In EP5, Erika is the detective and does not commit the first twilight murders. In EP6, Erika commits the first twilight murders. The first twilight murders are always committed by the same person. Therefore, it is a contradiction for Erika to be the same person in EP5 and EP6.

So for EP5 I think you end up stuck with this:

Battler: not the detective
George: dead at 1st twilight
Jessica: dead at 1st twilight
Maria: dead at 1st twilight
Rudolf
Kyrie
Eva: in mansion at 1am
Hideyoshi
Krauss: dead at 1st twilight
Natsuhi: in mansion at midnight
Rosa: in mansion at 1am
Shannon
Kanon
Genji: dead at 1st twilight
Gohda: didn't go to guesthouse 2nd floor before morning
Kumasawa: didn't go to guesthouse 2nd floor before morning
Nanjo: with Erika from 12am-3am

[ijriims]

If any one of the 17 people was Erika in EP5 and EP6, can anyone tell me why that person was not Erika in EP1-4?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

In EP5, Erika is the detective and does not commit the first twilight murders. In EP6, Erika commits the first twilight murders. The first twilight murders are always committed by the same person. Therefore, it is a contradiction for Erika to be the same person in EP5 and EP6.

Says who? I don't see why it always has to be the same person. And Erika doesn't commit the "first twilight," she murders the faking "victims" of the FT. There is a difference, and it could be important.

[Laserworm]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

In EP5, Erika is the detective and does not commit the first twilight murders. In EP6, Erika commits the first twilight murders. The first twilight murders are always committed by the same person. Therefore, it is a contradiction for Erika to be the same person in EP5 and EP6.

So for EP5 I think you end up stuck with this:

Battler: not the detective
George: dead at 1st twilight
Jessica: dead at 1st twilight
Maria: dead at 1st twilight
Rudolf
Kyrie
Eva: in mansion at 1am
Hideyoshi
Krauss: dead at 1st twilight
Natsuhi: in mansion at midnight
Rosa: in mansion at 1am
Shannon
Kanon
Genji: dead at 1st twilight
Gohda: didn't go to guesthouse 2nd floor before morning
Kumasawa: didn't go to guesthouse 2nd floor before morning
Nanjo: with Erika from 12am-3am

For Ep6

Rudolf, and Hideyoshi were stated in red, not to be the person who killed the 1st twlight victims. (Though that was before Erika rekilled them, so I don't know if that counts) The four people, Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda were not involved the the murders of the six people, Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, and Battler.

Kyrie gets her head cut off by Erika, so it is unlikey that she is Erika.

Kanon and Erika are stated to being different people.

[Request: I am not the rescuer.] Of course not! You're the detective, aren't you? Relax, I'll respect that.

The one who helped Battler escape was unmistakably Kanon himself.

[Renall]

If Erika is Shannon, and Erika isn't the rescuer and Kanon is, Shkanon is dead in the water. Not that this really means anything, as this line of reasoning assumes Erika-doesn't-exist to be true anyway.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But how can that be possible...

Well, what if "Sayo" isn't actually her real name? Assuming Shannon actually is Kinzo's daughter, wouldn't he have given her a Western name?

Erika Ushiromiya, the Golden Witch?

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

The first twilight murders are always committed by the same person.

Why so? If that were true the First Twilight culprit would have to be Nanjo.

Besides, detective status is a meta-construction. As far as the gameboard is concerned, "Erika" can kill as many people as she likes.

Originally Posted by ijriims

If any one of the 17 people was Erika in EP5 and EP6, can anyone tell me why that person was not Erika in EP1-4?

Who says they weren't?

But, but, the red text, you say? Well, note that "Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now" specifically addresses the character by her full name, as does all of the red text describing her role in the game and how she increases the person count.

"Erika" and "Erika Furudo" need not refer to the same individual.

If we, as above, assume that Shannon's real name is "Erika Ushiromiya", and that the "Erika Furudo" we see is entirely a meta-construction led to believe that she's a real person, all the little contradictions in her behavior make sense.

Note that I am not saying that everything "Erika" does can be attributed to Shannon; the things that she says and does are also characteristic of other people on the island. (Battler, Eva, etc.) I am only saying that Shannon's body is called "Erika" and is thus used by Bern and Lambda for the purposes of red text.

What do you think, everyone?

[Renall]

I don't suppose there's any way to read hers or Kanon's alleged real-name characters in a funky western way, is there?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Renall

I don't suppose there's any way to read hers or Kanon's alleged real-name characters in a funky western way, is there?

"Yoshiya" can be pronounced/written/whatever as "Joshua". I've seen it done before.

As for "Sayo", that's beyond my rudimentary knowlege.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Who says they weren't?

But, but, the red text, you say? Well, note that "Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now" specifically addresses the character by her full name, as does all of the red text describing her role in the game and how she increases the person count.

"Erika" and "Erika Furudo" need not refer to the same individual.

If we, as above, assume that Shannon's real name is "Erika Ushiromiya", and that the "Erika Furudo" we see is entirely a meta-construction led to believe that she's a real person, all the little contradictions in her behavior make sense.

Note that I am not saying that everything "Erika" does can be attributed to Shannon; the things that she says and does are also characteristic of other people on the island. (Battler, Eva, etc.) I am only saying that Shannon's body is called "Erika" and is thus used by Bern and Lambda for the purposes of red text.

What do you think, everyone?

Does it mean Shannon discussed with Eva on the seal tape, went to guesthouse by 24:00, climbed the wall to seal the windows in a swimsuit, reading books with Nanjo during 12:00-1:00am, monitored the cousin room between 1:00am to 7:00am, killed the five in EP6? Since Erika Furudo did not exist on the Rokkenjima-Prime and had no real body in EP5 and 6?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Does it mean Shannon discussed with Eva on the seal tape, went to guesthouse by 24:00, climbed the wall to seal the windows in a swimsuit, reading books with Nanjo during 12:00-1:00am, monitored the cousin room between 1:00am to 7:00am, killed the five in EP6? Since Erika Furudo did not exist on the Rokkenjima-Prime and had no real body in EP5 and 6?

Erika's seals are never confirmed to actually exist as anything other than a meta-construction. The only seal we are ever actually shown is Eva's single seal on the servants' room.

Furthermore, we actually have nothing other than Erika's word to prove that she actually stayed awake all night, only red truth confirming that nothing happened in Battler's room. If she had actually spent six hours listening to Battler breathe, she would have been able to tell that the other four were still alive.

And yes, Shannon must be in on Kyrie's plan for this to work, otherwise she'd have no reason to talk to Eva about that duct tape seal. I think we can track her activities as so:

-Shannon leaves the dining hall not long before the letter is discovered.
-She spends time with Nanjo in the library until 1:00 AM, and with Nanjo and Gohda in the lounge from then until 3:00 PM.
-She then retires to a room in the guesthouse prepared for her, knowing that the servant's room is to be sealed off in preparation for the mystery the next morning.

Sound more plausible now?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

In EP5, Erika is the detective and does not commit the first twilight murders. In EP6, Erika commits the first twilight murders. The first twilight murders are always committed by the same person. Therefore, it is a contradiction for Erika to be the same person in EP5 and EP6.

So for EP5 I think you end up stuck with this:

Battler: not the detective
George: dead at 1st twilight
Jessica: dead at 1st twilight
Maria: dead at 1st twilight
Rudolf
Kyrie
Eva: in mansion at 1am
Hideyoshi
Krauss: dead at 1st twilight
Natsuhi: in mansion at midnight
Rosa: in mansion at 1am
Shannon
Kanon
Genji: dead at 1st twilight
Gohda: didn't go to guesthouse 2nd floor before morning
Kumasawa: didn't go to guesthouse 2nd floor before morning
Nanjo: with Erika from 12am-3am

If it is allowed to use logic deductions (I'm not sure anymore) then you would realize that Erika can only be Shannon or Kanon.

Looking at the red truths we don't know who exactly was in the dining room, but we can know that pretty much all the adults are there and Battler must be there as well. We know that they have been in the dining room from 24:00 to 1:00 without ever leaving.

Now how many chances are there that this wasn't a family meeting?
That late at night, in the dining room, with pretty much all the adults assembled. Even if you question the scenes we have seen, from the reds alone it should be deduced with almost total certainty that this was a family meeting.

And if it was, how many are the chances that Kyrie, Rudolf or Hideyoshi would miss it? I don't think it ever happened before. Rosa sometimes leaves early because she has practically no power, and no one cares if she isn't there. But Those three would probably not miss a family meeting unless they are dying.

Conversely there is no reason for Kanon and Shannon to be there, and anyway the presence of Kanon and Shannon in the guesthouse makes a lot more sense.

I can't say it in red but it's pretty close.

If ghosterika is true I have little doubts that in both EP5 and EP6 Erika is Shannon. And Erika and Beatrice being competing personalities of the same host body, fits very nicely. Who can act as a detective better than Beatrice, who's said to have a vast knowledge of the mystery genre?

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Conversely there is no reason for Kanon and Shannon to be there, and anyway the presence of Kanon and Shannon in the guesthouse makes a lot more sense.

I can't say it in red but it's pretty close.

If Erika's body is Shannon, then Kanon has to be the one who brings the ring to the party, since Shannon isn't there, and the letter and the knock are close to impossible due to red. Which fits well with Kanon's subtle anti-Kinzo-Conspiracy stance seen in the scenes where he participates in it.

[Shiro Kaisen]

Originally Posted by Oliver

If Erika's body is Shannon, then Kanon has to be the one who brings the ring to the party, since Shannon isn't there, and the letter and the knock are close to impossible due to red. Which fits well with Kanon's subtle anti-Kinzo-Conspiracy stance seen in the scenes where he participates in it.

I've got a new theory I sorta conceived in a discussion a few days ago, related to the Kanon-has-the-Ring stuff.

Kanon was being groomed to become Kinzo's successor by Grandfather himself. It's said that Kanon had a friendly relationship with the man, moreso than anyone else on the island. Apparently he could shoot Kinzo's prized rifles (unconfirmed, that might not be true, haven't fact-checked), and Kinzo encouraged him to solve the Epitaph. This would make Kanon opposed to the Kinzo conspiracy, since if he had the ring, he could take his place as the head. Also, this excludes him from the location check, because Kanon would possess the title of Kinzo.

Also, we know that Shannon and Kanon are a...special case from the Fukuin House. Shannon was six years old when she was brought to the island, which is absurd for a servant. So I posit that Shannon was going to be made into the next Beatrice. Kanon was to be her Kinzo once Kinzo died. That's why they have such a strong relationship.

...I'm working on tying this into the love duel, too. I haven't gotten too far yet, though.


And I just wanna say...I'm so happy we're finally discussing something other than Shkanon. Because I've done nothing but argue with Shkanoners for the past few months, and it got really annoying. I'm glad this is being taken as a serious alternative. Because Shkanon sucks and is boring. >_>

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Erika's seals are never confirmed to actually exist as anything other than a meta-construction. The only seal we are ever actually shown is Eva's single seal on the servants' room.

Furthermore, we actually have nothing other than Erika's word to prove that she actually stayed awake all night, only red truth confirming that nothing happened in Battler's room. If she had actually spent six hours listening to Battler breathe, she would have been able to tell that the other four were still alive.

And yes, Shannon must be in on Kyrie's plan for this to work, otherwise she'd have no reason to talk to Eva about that duct tape seal. I think we can track her activities as so:

-Shannon leaves the dining hall not long before the letter is discovered.
-She spends time with Nanjo in the library until 1:00 AM, and with Nanjo and Gohda in the lounge from then until 3:00 PM.
-She then retires to a room in the guesthouse prepared for her, knowing that the servant's room is to be sealed off in preparation for the mystery the next morning.

Sound more plausible now?

Well, what about the death of the fives in EP6? If Erika Furudo did not have a real body, then who killed the fives? Shannon? Then you

And why did Shannon had to seal Battler's room, use the tape to repair the chain-lock.

Care to explain why?

Interesting theory of separating Erika and Furudo Erika, just ignoring too much white text scenes.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Well, what about the death of the fives in EP6? If Erika Furudo did not have a real body, then who killed the fives? Shannon?

Probably, yeah, but as we discussed before it's possible that another person did it and the actions were attributed to Erika, thus allowing her to state that she killed them in red.

Wouldn't put it past Shannon, though.

Originally Posted by ijriims

And why did Shannon had to seal Battler's room, use the tape to repair the chain-lock.

Care to explain why?

Don't ask me, man, I haven't played Ep6. I don't even understand what the logic error is.

I have, however, heard something about Shannon shooting Kanon in the chest... wasn't Kanon turning into a corpse one of the solutions to his disappearance from the guestroom?

Assuming that all magic scenes are based off of real events in some way, what better time for Shannon to shoot Kanon than while they were in the same closed-off room together?

Originally Posted by ijriims

Interesting theory of separating Erika and Furudo Erika, just ignoring too much white text scenes.

...Which hardly matter anymore due to not having a reliable POV, yes. Unless you're referring to something else?