Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[Triple_R]

Solace - Well, given this latest interview with Gen, you could be right about hope and determination. Gen himself is focusing on hopes and dreams.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Solace

Quite right. My analysis wasn't meant to use the girls to contrast QB, just to show what I think each represents. You are correct that it is limited and narrow though. I could have offered a much more in depth look but I'd rather wait until after the show is done before doing that kind of work. We could and probably will spend a lot of time discussing ethics with all of these characters well past the ending of the show I believe.

Your point about Madoka is well said. If I may make an comparison, Madoka is almost like a representation of the "natural" incubation humans go through to become mature, while Incubator represents the unnatural. The MG system is growth through force, in a sense (adapt or die), while Madoka represents the traditional path.

One of the things I'm always fascinated with in anime is that easily accepted notion that if you give a child great power and/or responsibility it will be used maturely. These children are often portrayed as being far more mature than their age suggests. Perhaps this is a reflection of Japanese upbringing and lifestyle, where children are relatively independent compared to say...American children, who are often kept under closer watch, but in reality we do a lot of things to protect children who (at least in societies view) haven't matured enough to handle big responsibility.

If Sayaka is meant to represent the Shinji Akari view of the MG system (unstable mind as a product of immaturity and poor/weak support pillars while giving her incredible power), perhaps Madoka is to be the antithesis of that. That is pure speculation though, I can't really back it up with facts.

I believe Aristotle once associated moral character with the strength of the soul. We make our soul virtuous by doing virtuous things.

If character determines the strength of the soul, and the soul determines the power of the Soul Gem and Puella Magi, then I think it isn't too difficult to understand why Madoka has the highest hidden potential.

She's kind. She's kinder than any of the other characters we have seen so far. She cares about the well-being of everyone she knows, unlike Homura who doesn't really care about anyone other than Madoka, Mami who was hostile towards Homura, Kyoko who makes it her policy to care for herself first, and Sayaka, who arguably expected some love for her wish on Kamijo and is hostile towards Kyoko and Homura.

Kyubey said he didn't understand why Madoka had the most potential because he doesn't understand human morals. He would never have seen her kindness as a strength.

[Triple_R]

It's interesting how Gen stated that Kyubey has a different set of morals to that of human beings. IIRC, Gen has also made a couple other comments about Kyubey that honestly come off as a bit of a less-than-pleased reaction to how Kyubey is being predominantly perceived by fans of this anime.

I recall how Anno was displeased with a lot of NGE fans liking Rei and feeling sympathy for her, when Anno had intended for Rei to come off as creepy and disturbing.

I wonder if Gen now finds himself in a similar boat, with how his intended impact with Kyubey isn't exactly what the fans are taking from Kyubey. In Gen's case, though, he probably should have a word with Shinbo. SHAFT has clearly gone to extreme lengths to make Kyubey seem creepy and/or evil.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Gen has also made a couple other comments about Kyubey that honestly come off as a bit of a less-than-pleased reaction to how Kyubey is being predominantly perceived by fans of this anime.

If those comments really do exist, then he could just be... annoyed that fans have seen through his plot already and is trying to do damage control again. Just like the attempts after his role as writer leaked.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

If those comments really do exist,

Of course those comments do exist. I wouldn't say they do if they didn't.

Taken from here:

Urobuchi Gen made some interesting tweets about how he was wondering how people could think Kyuubey is suspicious "even though there aren't any scenes with bloodshed yet" this could either be taken as "Kyubey really isn't evil" or "just wait until blood sheds and then see whether he's evil or not" or something.


I'm not sure of the exact timing of that tweet (that this site is refering to), but it clearly shows that Gen wasn't entirely pleased with how people were reacting to Kyubey.

I also vaguely recall a Gen quote where he talks about how cute Kyubey is, and how it's strange how anybody could suspect Kyubey of being an evil-doer (or something to that extent).

then he could just be... annoyed that fans have seen through his plot already and is trying to do damage control again. Just like the attempts after his role as writer leaked.

If it was just that, why would Gen now come out and say that Kyubey has a different set of morals than human beings do? To me, this sounds like Gen is trying to persuade fans to think more deeply about Kyubey, and not simply perceive him as "evil".

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Of course those comments do exist. I wouldn't say they do if they didn't.

Taken from here:

Urobuchi Gen made some interesting tweets about how he was wondering how people could think Kyuubey is suspicious "even though there aren't any scenes with bloodshed yet" this could either be taken as "Kyubey really isn't evil" or "just wait until blood sheds and then see whether he's evil or not" or something.


I'm not sure of the exact timing of that tweet (that this site is refering to), but it clearly shows that Gen wasn't entirely pleased who how people were reacting to Kyubey.

Explore the wiki more.

http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Translat...ents#Chidamari

Comment about bloodshed was just before episode 3 aired. There's a lot of official translated stuff on the wiki, and other fun stuff (like every Madoka chan thread archived, the Mami thread was hilarious btw) to check out.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You could very well be right here. If that is the theme, though, I'm having a hard time thinking up how that plays out in the climax. Unless, perhaps, the climax is about Madoka learning to be less idealistic and hard on herself, and succeeding by showing a willingness to compromise and settle for a flawed solution, perhaps.

Well Urobuchi did say he was going to "deconstruct" the mahou shoujo genre.

Watching Madoka, I've been asking myself, "What makes Mahou Shoujo, mahou shoujo?"

I definitely think hope and determination play into-- there are a few keywords that keep re-appearing

Justice, Grief, Fate, Love, Hate, Sacrifice, Salvation, Regret, Despair, to surrender, or to change destiny. But with all of these themes, where is Urobuchi gen aiming?

Someone made an interesting point:

About the logo

Japanese fans noticed that the font of the kanji "魔法" (mahou, magic) in the show's logo text is heavily stylized, and could be read instead as "廃怯" (hai-kyou, cowardice, hesitation).
The visually valid joke title, "廃怯少女　まどか☆マギカ" (Hai-Kyou Shoujo Madoka Magika), could be translated as "wavering girl Madoka Magica"

I think the show is largely in part about Madoka maturing into a young woman, WITHOUT sacrificing her "idealistic" or "shoujo" values of right and wrong. We see many characters "choosing" to become a mahou shoujo based on false or weak principles, such as Sayaka choosing to "save" Kamijou, but as warned (or foreshadowed) by Mami, she has chosen it for the wrong reasons, and ultimately it leads to her resentment and regret. In addition, Kyouko and Mami have similar regrets, wishing they could have wished a more "selfish" wish. It's interesting, but in my experience and in Japanese media, there seems to be this reoccurring theme-- To become and adult, you must sacrifice some naivety or childhood innocence. The adult world is "dirty" and to become a young woman (the natural progression from shoujo), you must shed what it means to be a "shoujo".

Pay attention to the scene in ep 8 where Sayaka goes berzerk listening to the conversation between the two salary men. Why would Urobuchi put that scene in?

If I'm right, Madoka is going to lose her indecision, gain resolve and choose to move into "adulthood" or whatever you want to call it, without sacrificing her ideals. She'll get really close to surrendering to her fears and indecision, but something is going to trigger her into making a resolute choice.

I think I saw Urobuchi saying at some point that he wanted to explore "what defined the mahou shoujo genre" can anyone else find this quote?

http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Speculah:Ending_Analysis

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's interesting how Gen stated that Kyubey has a different set of morals to that of human beings. IIRC, Gen has also made a couple other comments about Kyubey that honestly come off as a bit of a less-than-pleased reaction to how Kyubey is being predominantly perceived by fans of this anime.

I wonder if Gen now finds himself in a similar boat, with how his intended impact with Kyubey isn't exactly what the fans are taking from Kyubey. In Gen's case, though, he probably should have a word with Shinbo. SHAFT has clearly gone to extreme lengths to make Kyubey seem creepy and/or evil.

No, it is too late now. Kyubey is evil. Madoka is good. Homura is good. Kyoko is evil.

Of course the internet will find Kyubey evil. Kyubey's face is locked into a devious cat smile. Shaft has Kyubey hiding in the shadows with glowing red eyes. He's either evil, designed to look evil, or both. And then you have Kyubey's actions. Although indecisive as evidence, things have not went well for people that met Kyubey. The internet does not believe in coincidences.

Everyone has the tendency to oversimplify binary opposites; good and evil. This notion of totality - that evil and good can be encompassed within themselves - is unavoidable to viewers. This is the original idea of "deconstruction" posed by philosopher Jacques Derrida, not the term often used on this forum.

There is an inevitable trace of evil within good. Madoka is pure goodness; but that purity is tainted because whenever you think of Madoka, you think of Kyubey. Inherent in the character Madoka is the character Kyubey. Even within pure light exists shades of darkness.

Urobuchi simply takes issue with the shallow perception of Kyubey. One side of the pool is deep enough for viewers to simply dip their toes in. These viewers reach their conclusions after a single evil action, or a scene depicting Kyubey as darkness. On the other end, viewers can dive into the complexity of the character Kyubey, exploring what lies beneath the surface.

My instincts tell me there will be many unsolved mysteries at the end of this anime. The story is less focused on explanation and more on exposition - exposing the moral dilemmas that we have marginalized and repressed. For example, Sayaka's struggle between protecting people and realizing that some people are not worth protecting. Kyoko's struggle between surviving for herself and helping those close to her. Madoka's struggle between the normal, everyday life she once had, and the terrible, miserable reality that she is forced into. These internal conflicts are not so different that we, as viewers, cannot comprehend them.

In short, the anime is not concerned with reason and logic. The focus is on emotion and intensity.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

There is an inevitable trace of evil within good. Madoka is pure goodness; but that purity is tainted because whenever you think of Madoka, you think of Kyubey. Inherent in the character Madoka is the character Kyubey. Even within pure light exists shades of darkness.

Urobuchi simply takes issue with the shallow perception of Kyubey. One side of the pool is deep enough for viewers to simply dip their toes in. These viewers reach their conclusions after a single evil action, or a scene depicting Kyubey as darkness. On the other end, viewers can dive into the complexity of the character Kyubey, exploring what lies beneath the surface.

I don't see Madoka as pure good. I see her with the potential for good due to her personality, greater than that found in other heroines so far, but she isn't "pure good".

If QB's lines are to be trusted, Madoka has the power to choose what sort of reality she wants. This is about what Madoka WANTS to be and how she is going to get herself to that destination. Currently she's not doing much to help herself.

Are you saying that QB is evil or that it's just mob mentality?

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by taofd

I don't see Madoka as pure good. I see her with the potential for good due to her personality, greater than that found in other heroines so far, but she isn't "pure good".

By pure goodness, I meant Madoka has done nothing that I would consider evil. And that she cannot do any evil, because she is by nature on the opposite side, which is good. The potential has nothing to do with it; she has potential to be a benevolent goddess or a malevolent devil. It is her natural affinity that makes Madoka pure good.

At least, I think so.

Originally Posted by taofd

Are you saying that QB is evil or that it's just mob mentality?

I am suggesting that we cannot use evil in the traditional way most people are using it. Kyubey is, by human moral definitions, evil. But within him is also the trace of good. One cannot think of Kyubey without thinking of all the good people he has contracted, and all the lives they have saved.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

"even though there aren't any scenes with bloodshed yet" this could either be taken as "Kyubey really isn't evil" or "just wait until blood sheds and then see whether he's evil or not" or something.


I'm not sure of the exact timing of that tweet (that this site is refering to), but it clearly shows that Gen wasn't entirely pleased with how people were reacting to Kyubey.

Someone's already said this but watch out when you're quoting Gen's tweets that came before episode 3,this is what he said right after episode 3 came out:

"the director still want to surprise the viewers(...)So I thought it is bad if everyone can guess how the series will be because of me. As a troubleshooter, I tried to mislead everyone. But as you can see, it's ineffective.(...)Okay now I've took a big load off my mind. Thank you everyone who keep up until today! I'm going back to the normal Urobuchi from now on!"

So anything he posted before that was him trying to mislead people,these quotes include:
-"if things went according to my plan, viewers will soon be captured by Kyuubey's cuteness and unfair suspicion against him will be no more."
-" 'Kyu' in "Kyuubey" is 'Kyu' as in "Cute"!"
-" We still haven't shown even a single scene with bloodshed!"

That being said Gen's latest interview has him saying QB has no "ill intent".

Again,I personaly still don't care if people find QB evil or not,but I at least want people participating in the debate to have the right info

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

By pure goodness, I meant Madoka has done nothing that I would consider evil. And that she cannot do any evil, because she is by nature on the opposite side, which is good. The potential has nothing to do with it; she has potential to be a benevolent goddess or a malevolent devil. It is her natural affinity that makes Madoka pure good.

At least, I think so.



I am suggesting that we cannot use evil in the traditional way most people are using it. Kyubey is, by human moral definitions, evil. But within him is also the trace of good. One cannot think of Kyubey without thinking of all the good people he has contracted, and all the lives they have saved.

Human moral conception is a broad concept that is subjective according to the individual. For example, personally I don't consider QB evil. I consider him morally ambiguous and not someone I would like to associate with, but he is certainly not EVIL*.

[ronelm2000]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

The word of God had descended. QB isn't evil! lol

lol AMEN! XD

Oh well, it's still immoral is common human values though. =P

But I just really think that Kyubey's stuck at this as much as Mahou Shoujo are. Think about it, since Mahou Shoujo = Mahou, then Kyubey is preeetty much "forced" to make Mahou Shoujo to balance things out, unless there's another familiar that's like Kyubey.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ronelm2000

Kyubey is preeetty much "forced" to make Mahou Shoujo to balance things out, unless there's another familiar that's like Kyubey.

He's not balancing anything, he's the Incubator. The only question is what is he incubating? Witches or something else? In any case, he couldn't care less about balance and whatnot.

EDIT: and Urobuchi DIDN'T said QB isn't evil. Just that he doesn't understand human morals, which isn't anything new since Homura said something similar in episode 7.

[PzIVf3]

These question mark kinda interest me can anyone translate pls.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

He's not balancing anything, he's the Incubator. The only question is what is he incubating? Witches or something else? In any case, he couldn't care less about balance and whatnot.

EDIT: and Urobuchi DIDN'T said QB isn't evil. Just that he doesn't understand human morals, which isn't anything new since Homura said something similar in episode 7.

Kazu-kun, if he doesn't understand human morals, then it seems silly to me to try to judge him by those morals. We can judge his actions by those morals, of course, and argue that those actions are harmful and should be stopped (one way or another), but Kyubey himself as a being is a different matter.

To say that Kyubey is evil, because some of the more common human values would render him so, seems a bit silly to me, if Kyubey himself does not fully understand those human values.

I truly think that Gen himself probably wants fans to give up this highly insistent "Kyubey is evil" line of thinking, and either try to see Kyubey in a more nuanced light, or move on to other more "big picture" issues of concern for this anime.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

To say that Kyubey is evil, because some of the more common human values would render him so, seems a bit silly to me, if Kyubey himself does not fully understand those human values.

If he deals with us humans, he must abide to out codes.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I truly think that Gen himself probably wants fans to give up this highly insistent "Kyubey is evil" line of thinking, and either try to see Kyubey in a more nuanced light, or move on to other more "big picture" issues of concern for this anime.

If there's anything I learned about Gen's tweets it's to never take them to seriously. If anything, he's most likely out to misdirect the audience now that we're hitting the climax.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Kyoko is evil.

Don't you dare say that she's evil!

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by jeroz

Don't you dare say that she's evil!

...I already did. I cannot take the statement back.
Kyoko has done evil things. She has let witch familiars run rampant, all so she could acquire the Grief Seeds resulting from their witch transformation.

However, if you look closely, I said Kyoko was evil in criticism of those who oversimplify good and evil. The majority of viewers thought Kyoko was evil in episode 6; it was revealed that she lets people die for her own benefit. However, there is always another aspect of the story, a shade of good in pure evil. Kyoko has compelling, good reasons for doing evil things.

So must Kyubey. He may be evil, but he has reasons. What interests me is not so much whether Kyubey is evil, but why he chose that path.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

The majority of viewers thought Kyoko was evil in episode 6; it was revealed that she lets people die for her own benefit. However, there is always another aspect of the story, a shade of good in pure evil.

No, not always.

Some people (and certainly some fictional characters) do take action with genuinely evil intent sometimes. Sometimes the reasons behind actions are evil themselves.

So I think there should be a distinction between those who commit evil actions but without evil intent, and those who commit evil actions and also with evil intent.

What's the "shade of good" in a sadistic bully? What's the "shade of good" in a rapist?

However, there is a "shade of good" in, say, a revolutionary who uses questionable methods to bring down a corrupt system.

Kyubey's actions tend to bring about evil results. So the question now is what is his ultimate intent? What is his chief goal? That is what will tell the story pertaining to him, in my opinion.

Kyoko has compelling, good reasons for doing evil things.

Don't confuse "good" (in a moral context) with "pragmatic".