Hayate no Gotoku manga (raw discussion only)

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

You are forgetting that "Bible" are made of texts, and the subtexts are understood through reading the texts, which is no different from the arts (subtexts) of the manga which are understood through the texts.

The "Christmas story" you watched seem to change the texts to create more humor and still works. That's no different from what I was saying. Of course, they have to make the video having same theme.

Subtext is the underlying theme, it has no media counterpart.
In manga it is usually seen through pictures,
In animation and real life it is usually seen through body language,
In writing it is given in the texts.
It's all subtext, and it's all solid no matter how you translate it. Language barriers don't stand a chance against subtext. It's universal.

Someday we may find alien life and learn to communicate with it. A new level of subtext may be born/found, but it will still fall into the category of subtext.

The 'christmas story' I watched changed the times it was set in. It didn't change the subtext.
People have probably laughed at the absurdity of the original subtext of the 'christmas story' (and Christmas Story), so that probably wasn't even that big of a change.

I don't know why you're assuming that they needed to keep the same theme, humans have completely changed the 'christmas story' over the 2000+ years that it's existed.
Not to put to fine a point on it, but most people now don't even know the true theme anymore.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Actually, it was probably put in there to reference a trope considering how, illogically, strongly the characters insisted it was a guy.

That might have been an explanation for the first time Hina was made to wear the costume, but not for having Ayumu pointlessly bring it along and have Hina wear it before the final battle in Greece.

Though Silver Red's continued existence may be of importance later, I don't think it'll play a role like you're expecting, as several more have come about since that center around Red, including the color of the uniform being a rather selective meaning to Hina-tan, plus her own red (flavored) hair.

I see absolutely zero significance in the color. Having Ayumu bring the costume along had no deeper meaning other than obscuring Hina's identity from Hayate. Hata even drove home the point one extra time when he made Hayate briefly ask Red/Hina who s/he was at the beginning of the fight, making clear that he didn't recognize her.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Subtext is the underlying theme, it has no media counterpart.
In manga it is usually seen through pictures.
In animation and real life it is usually seen through body language,
In writing it is given in the texts.
It's all subtext, and it's all solid no matter how you translate it. Language barriers don't stand a chance against subtext. It's universal.

Since we obviously have different opinion, I'll stop now. I hope one day someone will come to agree with you with the subtexts.

About anime, try this link to understand how humor can easily be created through using/changing the texts in even the most serious situation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdIhN...eature=related Enjoy!

If you fail to understand, it's ok...

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by Mentar

That might have been an explanation for the first time Hina was made to wear the costume, but not for having Ayumu pointlessly bring it along and have Hina wear it before the final battle in Greece.

I don't think it was Ayumu who had brought it along, I think it was either one of the trio (who knew they were going to end the trip with a costume party, or Yukiji, who'd been told there was going to be a costume party.

Originally Posted by Mentar

I see absolutely zero significance in the color. Hata even drove home the point one extra time when he made Hayate briefly ask Red/Hina who s/he was at the beginning of the fight, making clear that he didn't recognize her.

The colors of the uniforms would probably make more sense if you looked through the tropes that Hina-tan invokes with it, there are several of them at least. One at least being that Red is always the color of the leader of the sentai team, which Hinagiku is.
Also, Hayate was supposed to be Blue, which would be a lampshade on his role as the 'smart guy' (except that he's absolutely blind when it comes to love). Also his hair and eye color.
The others of the trio have 'sentai' colors as well, though theirs haven't been played with.

The 'not recognizing' is a running gag in the manga with paper-thin disguises. Sometimes they're seen through, sometimes not.
Ones Maria is put into/puts on, usually seen through.
Ones Nagi puts on, seen through.
Ones Hayate puts on are sometimes seen through, usually seen as cosplay (and generally play on his ability to be a trap), sometimes they aren't.

[aldw]

I for one am simply willing to wait and see what happens next, particularly considering how authors can and have used stuff like subtext to lead the audience in a different direction than what may be initially anticipated...

[zodanhko]

One of my favorite Korean manwhas is called Noblesse, which has a creative use of subtexts to create humors although the texts are still needed for understanding the meanings, and it's much more hilarious than Hayate no Gotoku (to me) even with many serious characters and actions.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

I don't think it was Ayumu who had brought it along, I think it was either one of the trio (who knew they were going to end the trip with a costume party, or Yukiji, who'd been told there was going to be a costume party.

No, the costume was brought along by Aika, and it was Ayumu who handed it to Hina (c257, p9/10). I think you're missing my point though. In this scene, there was no reason whatsoever of Hina to change into it - other than that it was required on a meta-level. Hayate must not know about Hina's involvement in the fight.

Originally Posted by musouka

HnG is a comedy-centric warm-hearted family story with romcom elements. I think he's saving the Hina-Hayate resolution for huge fireworks, but I don't expect them to end up together. I think even if given a choice, Hayate will choose to be with "milady".

We'll see. The longer the fireworks are kept dry, the better Hina's chances, seen on a meta-level. Besides, what's the point in saving fireworks if they have no impact? We'll have to wait and see.

Of course I do. I don't love A-tan because she's a delicate flower of humility and sacrifice, I love her because she's strong willed and does what it takes to meet her goals. I like her because she's entertaining to watch and I adore her personality as a whole. So seeing her put a plan in action and carry it out perfectly is great. The biggest crime a character can commit, to me, is to be boring. I find Athena to be the most interesting character in the series, thus she's my favorite.

Well yea - one girl's strong-willed favorite is another man's conniving selfish drama queen. The truth is in the eye of the beholder.

The funny thing is that generally I have a distinct preference for the assertive type. Just not the "gets-away-with-everything-since-the-author-wants-it-like-this" model.

Spoiler:

I mean, you say those things like I'm obligated to dislike her just because she might have hurt poor widdle Hina's feelings. I don't dislike her for blackmailing Hina--especially over such a ridiculous non-issue--and I wouldn't dislike her even if she did far worse.

"Ridiculous non-issue"? Maybe for you or for her, but not for Hina. It's exactly this ungrateful and uncaring "screw you, only what I want matters" attitude which separates us: You love it, I detest it. *shrug*

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Mentar

The funny thing is that generally I have a distinct preference for the assertive type. Just not the "gets-away-with-everything-since-the-author-wants-it-like-this" model.

Spoiler:

And yet you'll defend Kirino to the death...

Originally Posted by Mentar

"Ridiculous non-issue"? Maybe for you or for her, but not for Hina. It's exactly this ungrateful and uncaring "screw you, only what I want matters" attitude which separates us: You love it, I detest it. *shrug*

And of course I like it. Better Hina squirm than we get the umpteenth "passive-aggressively crying inside because Hayate isn't sensitive enough to read my mind so I'm going to stalk off and make him think I hate him again". Athena is wonderful because she forces other people to react. You might not like it, but I prefer to see how Hina deals with a tricky situation than go through the same old motions.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by musouka

Spoiler:

And yet you'll defend Kirino to the death...

Could it be you're confusing me with someone? I consider Kirino as pretty much insufferable ^_^; ... would be news to me that I'd be defending her.

Maybe you meant Ayase? If anything, she's a highly controversial character from this anime I have a soft spot for, and who I mounted a partial defense for.

And of course I like it. Better Hina squirm than we get the umpteenth "passive-aggressively crying inside because Hayate isn't sensitive enough to read my mind so I'm going to stalk off and make him think I hate him again".

Well, compared to Athena's violent tantrums when she didn't get things the way she wanted, Hina has been the epitome of tact and consideration ... we'll see if Athena has learned anything in the meantime. The coercion part makes me doubt it.

Athena is wonderful because she forces other people to react.

Oh, I agree that she's an excellent dynamic _character_. So is Kirino, by the way. It's her flaws as a _person_ which we disagree on.

You might not like it, but I prefer to see how Hina deals with a tricky situation than go through the same old motions.

Tricky situations are fine with me. I hope that Hata is more creative about the path he is sketching for Hina this time - because, believe it or not, I'm a bit tired of the powerless-embarrassed-fleeing Hina too.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by musouka

And of course I like it. Better Hina squirm than we get the umpteenth "passive-aggressively crying inside because Hayate isn't sensitive enough to read my mind so I'm going to stalk off and make him think I hate him again". Athena is wonderful because she forces other people to react. You might not like it, but I prefer to see how Hina deals with a tricky situation than go through the same old motions.

Hina-tan - Tsundere, although originally it was more her choice when to switch, it's been slowly growing towards Hayate being the activating force.
Athena - Some other kind of '-dere' (I think it's usually Yandere that fans generally agree on, but we have yet to see how much of that was Midas' control.)

So basically you're choosing one personality factor over another, which fans have been debating over for years on which is more popular, longer that HnG has even been around.

Anyway, I much prefer Hinagiku's personality, the romanticism of wanting to be carried off by Hayate just delights me and her wanting to shed the cooler than a guy image makes her interesting, while Athena's hidden planning isn't as interesting to me. Plus I'm pretty well convinced that she's working against something the rest of the good guys want, and the fact that her backstory isn't fleshed out makes me wonder what skeletons she's got in her closet.

And about Aika bringing the costume, she's a chessmaster too, we don't even know what side she's on yet, so bringing the costume was probably some part of a plan we've yet to see the full effect of yet. Maybe before this arc comes to an end with 'Alice' moving in, Hayate will get the 'revelation' dropped on him that Red is Hina.
(and if you couldn't tell by the number of links to tropes in the above paragraphs, HnG is a very trope-heavy story)

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Well, compared to Athena's violent tantrums when she didn't get things the way she wanted, Hina has been the epitome of tact and consideration

I'm pretty sure Hina attacked Hayate multiple times with her sword when she got angry with him although he could easily block them each time. Athena made it much more interesting by using magic and activating unlimited blade works at least. ^.^

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Anyway, I much prefer Hinagiku's personality, the romanticism of wanting to be carried off by Hayate just delights me and her wanting to shed the cooler than a guy image makes her interesting, while Athena's hidden planning isn't as interesting to me. Plus I'm pretty well convinced that she's working against something the rest of the good guys want, and the fact that her backstory isn't fleshed out makes me wonder what skeletons she's got in her closet.

Nothing is more tedious for me than having a character who's thinking of getting closer to the protagonist, blushing half of the day long around him, and running away when something embarrassing happens. Honestly, to me, those kind of characters resemble some fan girls who failed each time because of weak personality.

A character who has no problem to force/make others to act/react, having a hiding agenda, having unknown thoughts, trying to accomplish something (unknown to viewers) important other than getting closer to the protagonist makes every story much more interesting to read. Romance wise, it's great to see someone who's actually making moves on a thick-headed protagonist in a manga with hundreds of chapters.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

A character who has no problem to force/make others to act/react, having a hiding agenda, having unknown thoughts, trying to accomplish something (unknown to viewers) important other than getting closer to the protagonist makes every story much more interesting to read. Romance wise, it's great to see someone who's actually making moves on a thick-headed protagonist in a manga with hundreds of chapters.

Even if that agenda might end with the character she has a crush on dead?

She doesn't seem to have had any compunction against possibly killing Hayate, made even worse when many of such actions happened when they were locked in the RG without the possibility of medical help if he did get a critical wound.

[madmac]

Anyway, I much prefer Hinagiku's personality, the romanticism of wanting to be carried off by Hayate just delights me and her wanting to shed the cooler than a guy image makes her interesting,

Honestly, my biggest problem with Hina is that in contrast to most characters, I feel like she's gotten steadily less interesting over time, to the point where her showing up is just a dozen panels of Hina blushing/running away and maybe one funny dream sequence if I'm lucky. (Hina's ridiculous fantasies are my favorite part of her character, I won't lie.)

As such, it's probably not a coincidence that I enjoy Hina the most when she's interacting with anyone but Hayate these days. Maybe this arc will force her to get it together a little, but I'm not holding my breath.

As for Athena, I look forward to seeing her start messing with people just because it has the potential to bring out all sorts of interesting interactions. If anything, Athena being slightly evil makes me like her more. (I wouldn't say I'm personally invested in Athena, so I don't really care if she's "likable" or not.)

[GlassesLady]

Spoiler pics are out, as posted on MF. Courtesy link.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled flamewarheated argument.

I realise it's not a flamewar; I just wanted to say that.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Even if that agenda might end with the character she has a crush on dead?
She doesn't seem to have had any compunction against possibly killing Hayate, made even worse when many of such actions happened when they were locked in the RG without the possibility of medical help if he did get a critical wound.

You think that Athena tried to kill Hayate after she locked herself in the RG for eternity so Hayate could escape from Midas. Please, spare me. It's ludicrous.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

You think that Athena tried to kill Hayate after she locked herself in the RG for eternity so Hayate could escape from Midas. Please, spare me. It's ludicrous.

O.o What?

Athena was implied to have been locked in the RG even before Hayate had gotten in. If Hayate had actually gotten a mortal injury, she wouldn't have been able to go get help.

And it was the training (including the kicking him in the stomach hard enough to make him complain) that I was talking about, not specifically when Midas was trying to kill him. If Hayate had gotten incapacitated during any of it, Athena would have been the only one able to help.
Also, Yanderes are known for sometimes killing the ones they love because they didn't get chosen, just out of spite.

I'm not trying to create a worst-case scene for Athena, just pointing out things.
I really wish you'd stop trying to paint me as an Athena-hater. There's only one character in HnG that I actually dislike.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

O.o What?

Athena was implied to have been locked in the RG even before Hayate had gotten in. If Hayate had actually gotten a mortal injury, she wouldn't have been able to go get help.

And it was the training (including the kicking him in the stomach hard enough to make him complain) that I was talking about, not specifically when Midas was trying to kill him. If Hayate had gotten incapacitated during any of it, Athena would have been the only one able to help.

I'm not trying to create a worst-case scene for Athena, just pointing out things.

Do you even think why Athena kept everything to herself because of Hayate's personality? Think why Hayate thanks her after he realized what she did by letting him go when she was possessed (he even stated reason).

I DON'T think anyone would agree with you that Athena wanted to kill Hayate or will try to kill him in the future. Your reasonings are nonsense.

Just make a poll so people CAN LAUGH ABOUT IT.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Do you even think why Athena kept everything to herself because of Hayate's personality? Think why Hayate thanks her after he realized what she did by letting him go when she was possessed (he even stated reason).

I feel like rereading this. In which chapter did he thank Athena for not telling him the truth?

And why do you think is she now deceiving those people whose help she obviously needs? (Hayate and Hina)

I'd like to hear this now for use later.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I feel like rereading this. In which chapter did he thank Athena for not telling him the truth?

I said he thanks her after realized what she did. http://www.mangareader.net/203-44783...apter-255.html

She didn't tell him just implied she didn't want him to be in danger for her.

Originally Posted by Mentar

And why do you think is she now deceiving those people whose help she obviously needs? (Hayate and Hina)

I'd like to hear this now for use later.

I don't think she's deceiving Hayate since she used the ring to tell Hayate who "Alice" really is. And, I believe she deceives Hina because she doesn't want anyone else to know about and involve with the RG since it holds a "dangerous power" which no one should possess. She even told Hayate to keep it a secret from everyone else.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

She didn't tell him just implied she didn't want him to be in danger for her.

Yup, that sounds just like an Athena proclamation.

*Remembers the "Hayateeeeeee!!!!!!"*

I don't think she's deceiving Hayate since she used the ring to tell Hayate who "Alice" really is.

But not - and that's the important part - what's going on. As usual, she only tells him enough to get him to do what she wants.

And, I believe she deceives Hina because she doesn't want anyone else to know about and involve with the RG since it holds a "dangerous power" which no one should possess. She even told Hayate to keep it a secret from everyone else.

And you are gullible enough to buy that? For real?

I'm willing to cut Athena some slack here only for the argument of the meta-level: Telling Hayate would make it difficult to hide things from the reader, and not telling them upfront makes for more interesting storytelling.

If we'd ignore that, we'd only have one more arc of "Athena in trouble, who doesn't tell the truth for some alleged noble reason, but in the end needs the help of the others anyway, who have to risk life and limb to save her". In the Greece arc, it would have been less dangerous for Hayate/Hina/Isumi had she spilled the beans truthfully. I have little doubt that the same is going to happen now. Buuuut let's wait and see.