Macross Frontier 2nd Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa

[wisteria233]

With extra time though the only thing I want is an extra concert after the credits as one final send off for Frontier, but that's just me.

[Lancel]

I'd want to see a trailer for a freaking sequel. Buuuut that probably really is impossible.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

I think you know.

- Tak

Oh, that.

Well, there's always doujinshi, right?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Lancel

I'd want to see a trailer for a freaking sequel. Buuuut that probably really is impossible.

Average time between Macross series is several years, which is good, because its easier to digest, at least for me. I just hope Kawamori doesn't think of any funnies like *facepalmMACROSS-SEVEN*

A new Gundam comes every year, and sometimes it feels like I am forced to eat an entire buffet when I am already full.

- Tak

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by karice67

Hm...?

I think it's actually a valid question. It's not like you'd actually know if an epilogue is needed (or what extra scenes you'd want) until you actually see the film.

Especially since Kawamori's stance is that "they're all different representations of a truth no one knows" anyway.

Given what they achieved with the 2nd film - which most of you will find out in about 2 months' time - I personally don't see the need for any additional scenes.

Well, given the fact that 90% of those who SAW the movie still don't know WHO the enemy is in the end, I think they should at least give some explanations to the behind-the-scenes stuff. Like Leon and the fold quartz used to control the Vajra - how they got so much of it when in the TV series they said it was rare and they could only get it from the Vajra. So... they could use some extra scenes to explain things.

Plus, are you saying you DON'T want an epilogue where Sheryl wakes up? You? A Sheryl fan? I was leaning towards a draw here: Sheryl wakes up, Alto returns, Ranka is happy at their health. Doesn't that sound nice? Do we really want a repeat of SDF-1 and Zero in Frontier!?

Please, Kawamori, give us an epilogue where we find out what happens to the three main characters! Don't make it like with Shin and Sara or the entire SDF-1 fleet! I wanna so see Minmei again!

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Do we really want a repeat of SDF-1 and Zero in Frontier!?

There was hardly anything wrong with the ending of SDF & Zero.

The lovers were united, in life or death.

- Tak

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by Tak

There was hardly anything wrong with the ending of SDF & Zero.

The lovers were united, in life or death.

- Tak

I'm talking about not knowing what happened to them. For example, SDF-1 just disappears. Mao turns up in Macross Frontier as Sheryl's grandmother. Nothing is said of what happens to Misa, Hikaru, or Minmei nor Mao after Shin and Sara died. So we're all left going "what the hell?" That's what I mean. They each end with a "we'll never see them again." Plus, as far as I know, the TV series of Frontier is still the canon series. If the movie becomes canon instead, then we have no idea what became of Alto and whether or not Sheryl ever truly recovered. Only Ranka is perfectly fine. Do you see what I mean now?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Nothing is said of what happens to Misa, Hikaru, or Minmei nor Mao after Shin and Sara died.

We don't know what happened to them, but I don't believe it is necessary. Its a complete end to a story, thats it, folks.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Plus, as far as I know, the TV series of Frontier is still the canon series. If the movie becomes canon instead, then we have no idea what became of Alto and whether or not Sheryl ever truly recovered.

Since 7, Kawamori had merged elements of both DYRL and the original TV series. And I doubt we will see Sheryl, Alto or Ranka ever again in the next installation. As for what happened to Alto & Sheryl in this current series, I guess we will soon find out if Kawamori is nice enough to let us have an epilogue.

- Tak

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by Tak

We don't know what happened to them, but I don't believe it is necessary. Its a complete end to a story, thats it, folks.

Yet, let's look back for a moment at what characters made an appearance or were mentioned in Frontier: Minmei (Ep.23), Mao (series + movie), Fire Bomber (or Basara if you will, tv series), and Isamu (Movie 2).

Otherwise, Macross 7 has no connection to Frontier. Zero is the one with the most connections. Plus doesn't connect either except for the mention of Sharon Apple in Ep.1; but that's because she was an idol, they also mentioned Minmei.

Also, this is a bit of a spoiler, I think; but:

Spoiler for SDF-1 to Frontier?:

Bilrer mentioned one in Ep.23 that he wanted the fold quartz to exceed time travel and find Minmei. Are Hikaru, Misa, and Minmei (or the entire SDF-1) traveling through time constantly?

What bugs me is when characters just vanish whilst you have no idea what happened to them, then you watch a sequel with all new characters that don't relate to the original ones you've seen before. It makes a large plothole in Macross altogether to me. Because those characters that have been gone for years now (like SDF-1) have been mentioned or shown for brief moments in the sequels but you don't know what's become of them and that leaves you going "where are they now then?"

One thing a friend mentioned to me that's a large plothole:
"If SDF-1's crew left on SDF-2, then how did they make an SDF-3 to take them to Eden? Who was leading the government on Earth till then? How'd they establish the U.N.Spacey (later known as the N.U.N.S. - New U.N.Spacey)?"
They left these plotholes that add up until you reach Frontier. At least with Zero, you understood that Shin was a pilot left on Earth AFTER SDF-1 landed (or before, some say it landed before Shin became a pilot, some say after the storyline). Then you jump to SDF-1 and you can pretty much catch up on your own. But then you jump to Macross Plus and go... "huh? Wasn't I just watching Misa and Hikaru get married before SDF-2 goes 'bye-bye?'"

Plus, a lot of liked characters of the Macross universe get bad endings or facepalms. For example, I considered Mao's a facepalm, as it reminded me too much of Escaflowne the Movie's ending (the feathers, him taking off into the sky). My original favorite character in SDF-1 was Minmei, then it became Misa over time. Both went missing. Isamu, one of my most loved male characters is last seen with Myung and then shows up 20 or so years later helping an S.M.S. fleet in Frontier Movie 2. So what happened to Myung?

Some of the PLOTS don't even resolve either. Frontier Movie 2's plot seemed like it wasn't done to me. Galaxy still about... Vajra still able to fight if needed, and even though Frontier has landed on the planet, if they make the movie canon and then try to build off the movie, I doubt they'd get very far explaining how Galaxy was dealt with and Frontier lived peacefully.

If Macross was a run-on series like they did with Robotech in the USA where they just went from one series into another right after it and only jumped ahead a year or five at most, just switching characters, then some people might follow it easier. You could notice the accomplishments over the timeline. But given it would be too expensive, I doubt Kawamori would do that. But his plots don't make sense. Nor have they ever to me.

And don't get me started on the plot of this movie, because 90% of the people who've watched it are still asking "who's the bad guy?" For one thing, there are so many small plots outside of the triangle that the triangle itself isn't even a plot or a worry anymore, nor are the main characters part of the plot. For one thing: Grace, Mishima, Galaxy, and the main characters all have different agendas and their own separate plots. And right when you think you know who the bad guy is, it jumps from Vajra to Sheryl to Grace to Mishima to Brera to Galaxy as a whole. The Vajra become the abused party of the whole ordeal. And being as I like Ai-kun and the Vajra grew on me, I see them being in the same situation as the Zentradi - miss-communication. But once again, all the plots smash into each other and a new plot is created that isn't resolved: Galaxy. This is why Kawamori's works just throw people for loops. I felt like I watched "The Empire Strikes Back" and stopped in the middle.

Originally Posted by Tak

Since 7, Kawamori had merged elements of both DYRL and the original TV series. And I doubt we will see Sheryl, Alto or Ranka ever again in the next installation. As for what happened to Alto & Sheryl in this current series, I guess we will soon find out if Kawamori is nice enough to let us have an epilogue.

- Tak

It's not the elements that I was meaning towards. BTW, you missed that Minmei was actually shown in Frontier, in Bilrer's ring. Mao was also shown. So perhaps they'll make appearances on future projects.

I want an epilogue to justify what happens to the characters mostly. Even another Nyan-Nyan clip would be nice. Something that says "here, this is what becomes of our three heroines."

[erfine]

Originally Posted by karice67

Given what they achieved with the 2nd film - which most of you will find out in about 2 months' time - I personally don't see the need for any additional scenes.

Fans love to obsess on the little details, tho. Take SDFM for example. All in all, it was a fairly crap series with little present day value beyond nostalgia, but you still have your share of fans stuck in the 1980s, wanting to read up on every novel, manga, or short story that they can get their grubby little hands on. Its a hobby to fill in every last detail of the character's lives.

No matter how completely it ended people will always want to see more.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by erfine

No matter how completely it ended people will always want to see more.

QFT. But I've already expounded on at length why I don't like inconclusive and bittersweet endings.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Lancel

I'd want to see a trailer for a freaking sequel. Buuuut that probably really is impossible.

No chance atm, Aquarion EVOL is the current Satelight X 8-Bit (A lot of ex-satelight member split to make their own company, helped on the movies as well as making Infinite Stratos themselves) project and that is slated for 2012, I would be guessing Spring. If they mimic how they handled Frontier maybe they'll do a special for the end of 2012 and than launch into a 30th anniversary series in 2013.

Macross 25 was announced in June of 07, Deculture was aired Dec, series started in Spring 2008.

[Falcor]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

QFT. But I've already expounded on at length why I don't like inconclusive and bittersweet endings.

After having watched a couple dozen different animes, I still enjoy Macross Frontier on the whole, so I find it easier to forgive the lack of closure. Much preferred to series that end all too conclusively, with a tragic and/or otherwise undesirable finale. Sometimes it's just better to fill in the gaps on your own... take Gurren Lagann, for example. I'd rather have had that end right after the final battle without the totally bittersweet wedding scene and everything after. Just imagine if Frontier had ended on that note....

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Falcor

Gurren Lagann, for example. I'd rather have had that end right after the final battle without the totally bittersweet wedding scene and everything after. Just imagine if Frontier had ended on that note....

Ok TTGL's ending was surprising and unnecessary. It went totally contrary to the tone of the series, and there was absolutely no need for it.

Bittersweet endings like the one in ZERO is fine. I liked it, and ZERO had to end that way, there was little alternative. But I am with the idea that not even death will do us part.

- Tak

[karice67]

Originally Posted by erfine

Its a hobby to fill in every last detail of the character's lives.

Kind of pointless in Macross, though, isn't it? You can never fill out every last detail because they're all 'different continuities'. Though if you subscribe to Kawamori's Macross world view, especially in the sense that every series reflects SOME truth (and varying degrees of it) about the 'real' characters they depict, you might fare somewhat better.

Oh, I suppose there is one thing I do want: for Kawamori (and Chiba Masahiro) to update the official chronology again.

Originally Posted by Tak

We don't know what happened to them, but I don't believe it is necessary. Its a complete end to a story, thats it, folks.

And that's how I feel about the Frontier story. Two months before I say anything more about it here though, probably...

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Falcor

After having watched a couple dozen different animes, I still enjoy Macross Frontier on the whole, so I find it easier to forgive the lack of closure. Much preferred to series that end all too conclusively, with a tragic and/or otherwise undesirable finale. Sometimes it's just better to fill in the gaps on your own... take Gurren Lagann, for example. I'd rather have had that end right after the final battle without the totally bittersweet wedding scene and everything after. Just imagine if Frontier had ended on that note....

Um, "Sheryl dissipitates into thin air" sounds somewhat unlikely.

Also, this is a pessimistic view. You seem to think that it would have been likely that a conclusive or bittersweet ending would instead have become tragic or, uh, tragic. I don't really see that happening.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Um, "Sheryl dissipitates into thin air" sounds somewhat unlikely.

Also, this is a pessimistic view. You seem to think that it would have been likely that a conclusive or bittersweet ending would instead have become tragic or, uh, tragic. I don't really see that happening.

Well, to me, it left plotholes.

Mao being mentioned in Frontier was a huge plothole. They never mentioned if she was ever happy. All we know is that she eventually had a child who later gave birth to Sheryl. For all we know, she could've never married and just got a sperm donor (as she might've wanted a child). Then she became the leader of 117's project. That's all we know.

Now, how do we connect the Vajra to 117 AND Frontier? Well, the first thing we have to do is look at data collected from Ep.13 and Ep.23. 117 had captured Vajra specimens on purpose and was experimenting on them. Now, what experiments and methods were they using on the animals? We don't know. So we are left to believe that what Ranka proves as a fact in Ep.21 with Ai-kun and Ep.25 with the whole lot of Vajra is correct: they chose to attack humans out of self-defense, believing the humans wanted to extinguish their kind. Since 117 had captured their kind against their wishes and used them to experiment, possibly killing their kind, the Vajra immediately out-lashed against them. Ranka being able to draw them to 117 was a coincidence.

So why do they attack Frontier? Because Ranka sang again. At that time, they were drawn to what they believed was another of their kind being harmed by humanity. They attacked Frontier without question. But Mishima states that the Vajra want to exterminate mankind. If they were harmed beings, then they have every right to be upset by what mankind has done to them, no? Take into account that animals that have been harmed by humans before will be violent and hostile to humans again as a response. If you abuse an animal, they will become violent to fight back, and the Vajra prove this. They want to kill mankind to protect themselves.

But when you look back at the past - how did 117 come in contact with the Vajra and why were they trying to experiment on them. At least with Macross 7, all of these things were explained, why the Vampires were there. In SDF, it was easily explained why the Zentradi wanted the Macross. In Zero, they eventually explained the legend of the "Bird Human". And Plus, well, it had no actual enemy or plot, but they still explained why Sharon went evil. They never did this with the Vajra. They explained what they WANTED you to believe: that the Vajra attacked the Frontier of their own volition to exterminate mankind for their total galactic domination (as Mishima put it) but Ranka proved that the Vajra were only trying to protect themselves. And, if you think about it, don't we do that too? We go to war and fight people or other beings trying to destroy us so we can protect ourselves.

Ah... plotholes that are never explained in the storyline of both tv series and movies...

[Falcor]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Um, "Sheryl dissipitates into thin air" sounds somewhat unlikely.

LOL! I left myself wide open for that one....

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Also, this is a pessimistic view. You seem to think that it would have been likely that a conclusive or bittersweet ending would instead have become tragic or, uh, tragic. I don't really see that happening.

Not being pessimistic at all; this was merely an observation on my part. I have seen one too many otherwise excellent anime series end on a sour note, which (personally speaking) tends to tarnish the overall impression. I was merely pointing out that for those particular series, I would have preferred an inconclusive ending - pretty much what the Macross franchise excels at. It's the 'what-ifs' that keep a series interesting, even long after it has concluded.

[Darthtabby]

From what I've heard I'm not so sure the movie needs an add on ending/epilogue. I might be more interested in seeing an alternate ending for the TV series, perhaps one that was closer to what Kawamori had planned before the writer convinced him to change it. Then again it sounds like the main thing that was changed was not resolving the love triangle, and there were hints with that, so perhaps not much was really changed. Worth thinking about though, even if it's unlikely to ever happen. (Just as it's unlikely that they're going to go back and fix up the bad looking artwork that shows up in some episodes.)

It seems that Kawamori may be wanting to put Frontier behind him, but maybe we can at least hope for a Nyan Clip 2... They're still got plenty of good songs they could use.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Falcor

Not being pessimistic at all; this was merely an observation on my part. I have seen one too many otherwise excellent anime series end on a sour note, which (personally speaking) tends to tarnish the overall impression. I was merely pointing out that for those particular series, I would have preferred an inconclusive ending - pretty much what the Macross franchise excels at. It's the 'what-ifs' that keep a series interesting, even long after it has concluded.

Not really. Good endings ( i.e. well told ones ) are the ones talked about long after, with fond memories. Inconclusive endings are the ones which people look back with more of a feeling of rancor. SDFM had a happy ending for the main couple, it was conclusive and it is still considered to be the best of the series.

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

It seems that Kawamori may be wanting to put Frontier behind him

I certainly hope not. Even Macross 7 got several OVAs.