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Originally Posted by Haegar
On Rubel stealing Teresa's head: it is of course possible but I doubt it. Considering #1 went rogue and #2-#5 were on the hunt there should have been at least three handlers present. Would have been quite the risk to take souvenirs imho - adn at the time he had no clue if he'd benefit from it other than piss of Dae
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Well, technically there should have been a handler nearby, but just how close is another question. Plus the fight made rather rapid progress out of the city before the big climax, so it would have taken a while for any MiBs near the city to catch up.
Regardless, they obviously weren't present for a fair period of time after the fight's conclusion simply due to the fact that Clare recovered from her crying jag and wandered off with Teresa's head without anyone stopping her. Where she found Rubel was in another town entirely. Oh, and Irene wandered off in the interim as well.
@Gooral: Several little points I want to try to answer.
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You also haven't explained why all Claymores have already made up their minds, before actually seeing that MiB are lying to them.
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Well, I was actually trying to show that they hadn't made up their minds until the moment the speech Lackey #2 gave was completed.
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They haven't met Deneve's team yet so they can't verify whether what Miria said was true
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Technically, I'm not sure that Deneve's team could do anything to verify Miria's statements. At worst you could consider them to have conspired together to present a unified, false story. At best, they work together with Miria, so obviously they share similar beliefs. In neither case is a verification from them terribly useful.
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knows for certain they're still Claymores
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Well, there is that, yes. However one might also say that that's a fairly simple matter to verify (do they still have blond hair?), which means that if Miria was lying about it the jig is up immediately once Deneve's group arrives. Hanging your entire deception on a lie that would be so easily revealed makes the possibility of it being a lie rather low.
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As you've noticed they were ignoring MiB but when Miria showed up all of them gave her full attention.
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I wouldn't say they were ignoring the MiBs until then. I think that if they had already turned to Miria's side that their expressions would have been more defiant/confrontational. I think they were despairing as the last hope that the Org was telling them the truth was washed away. I don't think they decided to follow Miria until the very last moment.
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And while I could believe that there was a place in HQ where Miria could have been stored/kept I doubt that this place could fit all Claymores and MiB wouldn't notice it. So either Miria would have to repeat the same thing many times to many Claymores that would visit her in a rotative manner (not sure how to say it in English, what I mean is that they would have to visit her in small groups to not bring attention) or they would have to listen to the information Miria had, indirectly (which would make it even less believable assuming Claymores would like to share it with others which we can't be sure of, I would think that some would react like Galatea).
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You're right, there's is no way Miria could have been "holding court" or whatever, explaining everything in a huge speech to all the Claymores all gathered at once. There's no way she could convince everyone that way. And having her explain it each Claymore over and over is also silly considering her condition. Plus, people don't become convinced simply by being told. They need to discuss it with friends, argue with rivals, and generally mull it over.
What I envision is that she told a few important things to a few people (likely the highest ranking Claymores, who are the most likely to stand guard over her), that information got told to other groups of Claymores, and it generally spread from the rest talking to each other. Questions to be answered can filter back up, and the process repeats.
You end up having something akin to this forum, where people each have different concerns, and a few things to say, so a few people are discussing one topic back and forth (eg: was Teresa's head used in Clare's Claymore-fication?), with occasional input from others, until you reach a point where the silly stuff is removed and the important questions remain, which can then filter back up as a question for Miria.
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The main problem I have with all this is that MiB are being presented as idiots who can't even manage their own backyard and yet somehow they're planning to win the war. They can't manage one spy and their own creations. I would prefer that instead of lowering Miria's opponents intelligence Yagi would increase her own.
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I in no way think that the MiB are idiots. They are scientists. Through long association they trust each other, more or less (personal rivalries and likes/dislikes still hold). Someone as gifted as Rubel is at subtle manipulations is extremely hard to pin down at the best of times, and for scientists used to dealing with experimental failures, having minor setbacks occur is par for the course. I'm sure there are plenty who dislike Rubel on general principal (his perpetual smile, his oily demeanor), but dislike for someone doesn't mean they're a spy.
Basically, my perspective here is of someone whose real life work involves scientific research and government agencies. The MiBs' behavior and interactions thus far all fit into the bounds of what I'd consider 'normal'. Well, Dae is slightly outside the bounds of 'normal' >.>
The MiBs have come to expect a certain range of behavior from the Claymores over literally decades of work. Probably 90% of all Claymores have never caused a real problem. They go where directed, do what they're told, and don't make a fuss. They even take a voluntary death if they're about to burn out. Every once in a while one of them goes a little spuffy (Ophelia) or picks up a bit of a rebellious streak (Clare), but those are isolated incidents and only cause momentary fluctuations in the overall pattern.
Those who deal with the Claymores become numb to it. Day in, day out for years on end, the Claymores behave as expected. If one or two decide to cause trouble, there's plenty more to take them down and replace them. If the sheet gets a bit wrinkly with lots of minor issues, do a mass purge (Pieta) and start from a nice clean set that won't have any of those issues built up.
To the MiBs, the Claymores are a known quantity. They are no longer interesting to study. They are last year's project. They've been pretty much completely handed over to the middle management tier so that the head scientists can get on with the important, cutting-edge research.
The problem is that none of them have ever read Dilbert.
I'll grant that there is still a degree of uncertainty regarding how well that full agreement took place. It depends not only on the individual Claymores, but on what was discussed, and who they discussed it with. Bonds of internal friendships may sway them when arguments don't. At the same time, some may resist regardless of the evidence. There's a big cloud of "and then a miracle occurs" where we don't know exactly what happened because we don't know all the individuals involved.
I think the best argument that could be made in favor of a mass agreement would actually be the Pieta purge. One of the major points of Pieta was to remove troublesome elements from the ranks, as could be seen by the massive arguments that flared up in the early gathering. The new generation has then be raised specifically to not cause trouble. Note that that is not the same thing as brainwashing/indoctrination; it doesn't mean that they must be zealot patriots for the Org, but rather that they avoid certain types of personality patterns that deliberately work against the flow of cooperation. Perhaps you could say they want them to be more docile and sheep-like.
Overall, while I'm not saying your objections are unfounded, there do seem to be quite viable paths that lead to our current situation that are not completely unbelievable in themselves.
