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AuraTwilight · 2013-08-02, 02:38

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Eh? How can it not be? Eva only survived in ep3. She clearly died in ep1 and ep2, it's even confirmed in red for ep2.

What if Ange's world isn't any of Beato's game-worlds?

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That's what I meant - he only confirmed George as dead so it would be easier to asume that it's one of the 17, rather than a "witch". But he didn't even recognize her. A wig can only get you so far.

Bear in mind he couldn't see her face due to the positioning of the lighting and their distance and the rain.

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I mean I'm not expecting Battler (the game) to give us answers to everything when there's 4 more episodes to go, but it's still something that got me wondering. The only logical explenation for me is that she was crushed by Battler not remembering his sin (and not even being the Battler she was looking for), not the hopelesness of victory.

About that...what if you've been lied to about Beato's win condition?

Sauzer · 2013-08-02, 03:01

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

What if Ange's world isn't any of Beato's game-worlds?

And the the two diaries are just random gibberish?.. =/ (Don't answer

At this point any more hints would be spoilers. I think it's bonkers and will leave it at that for now.)

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Bear in mind he couldn't see her face due to the positioning of the lighting and their distance and the rain.

Still not buying it. And I don't remember it being said he couldn't see her face. If it's someone he knows, how can he look at the person and think: "Yep, I know who it is - its Beatrice the witch, someone who shouldn't exist." Could be argued that he was "mentally prepared" to meet Beatrice by the phonecall (which I actaully thought and still think made fun of how Battler used to speak "english"), but it shouldn't have been enough.

On the other hand it was Night. Without any light you won't be able to see 5cm infront of you, so I guess I need to reread just how much lightsource there actually was.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

About that...what if you've been lied to about Beato's win condition?

People make a habit of lying in Umineko, eh?

Still Battler has no way of knowing any "secret" win conditions so I'm still surprised he accepted the new blue rule which, from his point of view is nothing but added pressure on him and creates "explain everything or lose" instead of "I still don't believe in witches, start another round".

ALPHA-Beatrice · 2013-08-02, 03:28

But keep in mind, up until that point it was as if Lady Beatrice was alone on the game board. The Blue Truth allows Battler to place some chess pieces on the board so to speak and to "deny" Lady Beatrice.

Sauzer · 2013-08-02, 03:49

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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

But keep in mind, up until that point it was as if Lady Beatrice was alone on the game board. The Blue Truth allows Battler to place some chess pieces on the board so to speak and to "deny" Lady Beatrice.

But at what cost? If you're gonna destroy a "there is 100% guarantee I cannot lose as long as I don't accept magic" to a "It is likely I will lose if I don't explain everything denying magic" there has to be a very large payoff in something else. Forcing Beatrice to use red truth is strong, but only if Battler can actaully explain it anyway. His past track record was not very impressive.

I do understand Ange's position completly though - just get it over with even if there's a chance you will lose, otherwise this will take an eternity.

Oh and could someone, please, copy-paste red truth's of eps 1-4 in spoiler tag?

GreyZone said there was a thread or something with all red truth's together, but I don't want to stumble into 5+ by accident.

Still don't understand why red truth's weren't in TIPS.

Drifloon · 2013-08-02, 04:18

I would recommend against relying too much on the red truth as a reasoning tool. It is extremely useful, but Umineko can't be solved without also paying close attention to the white text.

Anyway, you can find all the red truths here. It shouldn't be too hard to just avoid reading past the end of Alliance.

Sauzer · 2013-08-02, 04:42

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Originally Posted by Drifloon

I would recommend against relying too much on the red truth as a reasoning tool. It is extremely useful, but Umineko can't be solved without also paying close attention to the white text.

Anyway, you can find all the red truths here. It shouldn't be too hard to just avoid reading past the end of Alliance.

Oh, ok, thanks! )

And yeah, I mostly just want it to make sure my theories aren't directly contradicted by red truths. Oh, how much I tried to find a loophole to pin Nanjo's murder on Jessica homicide or Eva's "accidental" shot

Sauzer · 2013-08-02, 11:39

Spoiler for OK, first just a bit of warm-up.:

GreyZone · 2013-08-02, 11:58

About Kanon killing everyone on Rokkenjima:
Ushiromiya Battler. I will now...kill you.
And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere. You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.

No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game

So Kanon cannot be the one who kills Battler at the end, even if he really would be a different "personality". Also if you have a theory like this, you should check if there are any hints about it in the earlier episodes, or not. That applies to any other theories as well. (You don't have to rewatch them, but you can at least "think back" and possibly rewatch individual scenes again).

This also applies to "rocks falling down". Is that supported anywhere in the story? Did Battler observe anything that could lead to that conclusion? Did anyone talk about "unstable rocks" or something?
To get a proper theory for the "accident", you should try to think about it. When does it happen? What are you basing it on? What was said about rokkenjima/the guesthouse/the masion/the secret passages/the secret mansion, that could support your theory? Or do it backwards: Check what you know about the island again and from that create a theory.

Sauzer · 2013-08-02, 12:10

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Originally Posted by GreyZone

About Kanon killing everyone on Rokkenjima:
Ushiromiya Battler. I will now...kill you.
And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere. You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.

No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game

So Kanon cannot be the one who kills Battler at the end, even if he really would be a different "personality". Also if you have a theory like this, you should check if there are any hints about it in the earlier episodes, or not. That applies to any other theories as well. (You don't have to rewatch them, but you can at least "think back" and possibly rewatch individual scenes again).

This also applies to "rocks falling down". Is that supported anywhere in the story? Did Battler observe anything that could lead to that conclusion? Did anyone talk about "unstable rocks" or something?
To get a proper theory for the "accident", you should try to think about it. When does it happen? What are you basing it on? What was said about rokkenjima/the guesthouse/the masion/the secret passages/the secret mansion, that could support your theory? Or do it backwards: Check what you know about the island again and from that create a theory.

Erm. When I wrote "kills everyone" I meant excluding Battler. Like kills everyone and runs off the island leaving Battler alone. My point was that it would be too easy of a theory based on asuming that red truth is twisted to the point of lying.

And as for "rocks fall, everyone dies" I did not meant it literally

Did I spend too much time on tvtropes? What I meant is just "some sort of accident beyond human control", not rocks falling out of the sky

In ep3 I thought Eva ran the bodies of the dead through a meat-grinder. And now I think that a disaster happens at 24:00 october 5 no matter what. Even if all 17 of them sat there for two days drinking tea and eating cookies.

AuraTwilight · 2013-08-02, 13:32

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And the the two diaries are just random gibberish?.. =/ (Don't answer At this point any more hints would be spoilers. I think it's bonkers and will leave it at that for now.)

There's no such thing as random gibberish in a novel.

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Still not buying it. And I don't remember it being said he couldn't see her face. If it's someone he knows, how can he look at the person and think: "Yep, I know who it is - its Beatrice the witch, someone who shouldn't exist." Could be argued that he was "mentally prepared" to meet Beatrice by the phonecall (which I actaully thought and still think made fun of how Battler used to speak "english"), but it shouldn't have been enough.

On the other hand it was Night. Without any light you won't be able to see 5cm infront of you, so I guess I need to reread just how much lightsource there actually was.

The only lightsource was the porch lights directly behind her head. That would've created an effect where it was dark, he could make out her hair and some of her clothes, but her face would be the hardest part to see; especially with her umbrella. She was also on the second story in the rain. There is just no way he can see enough of her face to tell who it is.

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Still Battler has no way of knowing any "secret" win conditions so I'm still surprised he accepted the new blue rule which, from his point of view is nothing but added pressure on him and creates "explain everything or lose" instead of "I still don't believe in witches, start another round".

In fairness, that's kind of the point of their game. It's not enough to say "I don't believe", he has to PROVE. That's what their initial condition was.

Honestly, the Blue truth is extremely favorable to Battler's side because if he uses it right he can get any Red Truth he wants.

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But at what cost? If you're gonna destroy a "there is 100% guarantee I cannot lose as long as I don't accept magic" to a "It is likely I will lose if I don't explain everything denying magic" there has to be a very large payoff in something else. Forcing Beatrice to use red truth is strong, but only if Battler can actaully explain it anyway. His past track record was not very impressive.

Bear in min that Battler simply doesn't win if he doesn't explain everything. His lose condition is surrendering to the witch; all fucking up with the Blue does is cause a draw.

Spoiler for Sauzer don't read this one.:

PFFFFT oh my goddd~ XD

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Wait... crap.
She's not from the ep3 world? in ep3 world Eva comes back. Eva is still family, she's still some one, right?
Don't answer.

She's talking about her immediate family for dramatic effect, here. She never really accepted Eva as a replacement caretaker and is emphasizing that her most important family is gone.

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And doesn't that mean everyone dies? So even Eva would have to die? Doesn't that mean she couldn't escape after all? I mean sure Eva does die eventually (like all humans), but she did escape. wtf.
It can't be another mass-death surely. Something like that would be remembered no matter how long ago.

In fairness, Eva died in the EP4 world; but the point of the red is that everyone who does die can blame it on Battler somehow.

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Oh, also what the hell did Ange see in 1998 in the Captain Kawabata's house?

The PS3 adaptation makes it perfectly clear by having it in the backround image. Would you like me to spoil it? I'd consider it fair game.

Sauzer · 2013-08-02, 15:08

No, don't spoil it. I asume it's explained in VN sooner or later.
And yes I'm not quoting you because I learned from my past mistake of dealing with spoiler tags. And saying "Dont read this .... MUAHAHA this is so funny, too bad you can't read this!

" is too cruel.

... And wait a minute!!!

"She's talking about her immediate family for dramatic effect, here. She never really accepted Eva as a replacement caretaker and is emphasizing that her most important family is gone."

As touching as that whole scene was, really it was. BUT! She used red truth. Call me nitpicky or bullying a dying girl, but she used red truth! And in this case (if she really is ep3 Ange) she used it as "true for her" or "true from her point of view" but not the absolute truth.

Anyway.

Spoiler for Episode 1:

ALPHA-Beatrice · 2013-08-02, 18:13

Kuwasawa can't be the culprit because

Nanjo, Genji, Kuwasawa aren't killers

AuraTwilight · 2013-08-02, 18:17

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And yes I'm not quoting you because I learned from my past mistake of dealing with spoiler tags. And saying "Dont read this .... MUAHAHA this is so funny, too bad you can't read this!" is too cruel.

Just make the quote tags manually and copypaste parts into them, that's what I do.

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She's talking about her immediate family for dramatic effect, here. She never really accepted Eva as a replacement caretaker and is emphasizing that her most important family is gone."

As touching as that whole scene was, really it was. BUT! She used red truth. Call me nitpicky or bullying a dying girl, but she used red truth! And in this case (if she really is ep3 Ange) she used it as "true for her" or "true from her point of view" but not the absolute truth.

Indeed, and? The Red Truth allows for subjective truth statements, that's how Beatrice tricked Battler on the mother issue.

And also, Ange and Beatrice have both made statements with no truth value at all, like requests, crying, and laughing.

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Both were killed by another person!
It is not the case that, after the construction of the closed room, one of them committed suicide after committing murder!
Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!
No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room!

"In the same room", but could be a different room. Eva had shoes on.
1. Hideyoshi was killed in their room, but Eva was killed in another room and then was carried back to her room.
2. Eva was about to leave her room when she was killed. Hideyoshi didn't hear that in the shower and was killed second.

Problem: The chain can only bet set from the inside, and the locations of Eva's and Hideyoshi's corpses keep them from being killed from outside the room.

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1. When Genji and Kanon arrive the culprit is inside and out of view. Once they leave the culprit opens the chain, paints the door, closes the chain again and hides under the bed untill everyone arrives and leaves after which the culprit escaped through the window and goes to the boiler room.

2. Some of the servants are involved. Either by letting the culprit escape or closing the window after the culprit left through it or killing Eva and Hideyoshi themselves. It can be [Genji, Kanon, Kumasawa], [Kanon, Kumasawa] or even just Kanon.
Noone knew wether Kumasawa was present when Kanon cut the chain. And if asked she might've been to ashamed to admit that she fell behind, and, since Kanon died soon after, there was no way to prove otherwise.
This would allow Kanon to close the window through which the culprit (even himself!) could've escaped before. ... Damn, actually this would be quite elegant.

I don't recall if this is ever addressed, but what if the windows to the room were locked from the inside? Anyway, if the killer was someone hiding under the bed and/or escaping out the window, it can only be someone faking a death, since pretty much everyone was gathered in Eva's room when they were discovered.

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And define survivors. If I think one of the 6 from garden storehouse is alive does that include him in survivors? He's clearly not dead either. And after 24:00 october 5 they all die anyway so in that sense there are no survivors.
Are the survivors just a point of view from Battler about who he thought were survivors? In that case since when do red truths deal in points of view?

If someone is not dead, they are a survivor.

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1st confirmed Culprit:
Nanjo. He knows and hides the fact that Kinzo is dead. He likely had access to Kinzo's ring to make a copy or knew it's whereabouts to copy/steal it. Nanjo rarely if ever has an alibi for anything - 1st letter, 1st twilight, 2nd twilight, 2nd letter, 3rd letter. He also has the magic power to falsly confirm someone's death. Nanjo is killed once he outlives his usefullness (which seemed to be a trend even before ep4 as he never dies in 1st twilight and always ends up killed before the end).

Wait a minute, how is Nanjo a confirmed culprit?

For the purpose of Beato's game, btw? A culprit is someone who kills. Assisting them just makes you an accomplice.

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2nd Culprit:
Kanon. or Rosa/Kyrie/Krauss/Shannon/Gohda/Rudolf

All survivors have alibis. And there are no more than 17 people on the island. Therefore one or more not-survivor is needed for the later crimes. Kanon is shown to be a wealking. Could it be an act? In all the "fantasy" moments he shows sudden "supernatural power". Even showing normal strenght would surprise people.

Battler saw most of the bodies with smashed faces, and the unidentified corpses red confirms that they're dead. Under your reasoning, only one of the six can be faking dead.

Anyway, aside from those comments I can't poke any holes in your EP1 solution yet. Two questions: "Why does everyone die at 24:00 October 5?" and "What is Kanon's motive for killing?"

AuraTwilight · 2013-08-02, 18:18

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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Kuwasawa can't be the culprit because

The Servants are not killers.

Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa are not killers. Careful about how you word things, 'servants' is a label that includes more than the three of them, and which Nanjo isn't even a part of.

Aside from that, you're right. The three of them can't be killers of any kind in EP1.

ALPHA-Beatrice · 2013-08-02, 18:33

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa are not killers. Careful about how you word things, 'servants' is a label that includes more than the three of them, and which Nanjo isn't even a part of.

Aside from that, you're right. The three of them can't be killers of any kind in EP1.

Thankies for correction ^.^

GreyZone · 2013-08-02, 19:15

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Originally Posted by Sauzer

Erm. When I wrote "kills everyone" I meant excluding Battler. Like kills everyone and runs off the island leaving Battler alone. My point was that it would be too easy of a theory based on asuming that red truth is twisted to the point of lying.

"run off the island"... do you think anyone would survive going out to sea with such a storm roaring? Nah, I'll make it more easy:
Anyone who leaves the island during the storm, most certainly dies.
So in the end if it really was Kanon, then he would have to have commited suicide or die by some other means.

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Originally Posted by Sauzer

And as for "rocks fall, everyone dies" I did not meant it literally

Did I spend too much time on tvtropes? What I meant is just "some sort of accident beyond human control", not rocks falling out of the sky

The question is... WHO or WHAT caused that "accident"? Was it just a "tragical accident"? Or was it "intentional mass murder"? And WHAT exactly was the "accident" itself?

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Originally Posted by Sauzer

In ep3 I thought Eva ran the bodies of the dead through a meat-grinder. And now I think that a disaster happens at 24:00 october 5 no matter what. Even if all 17 of them sat there for two days drinking tea and eating cookies.

If you think about rokkenjima and its geography, history, etc. then maybe you can find some clues to back up such theories. Though maybe you find nothing and in that case the theory would be very unlikely.

Now about your EP1 theories:

Spoiler for Wall of Text:

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Originally Posted by Sauzer

Beatrice's letters:
Kinzo is dead. One of the 6+ people who knew he's dead also knew where to get Kinzo's ring and either made a copy of it or just stole it, thus one of those is a culprit/accomplace.

Maria is helping Beatrice. Wether she got the first letter in the rose garden or even before the typhoon started doesn't change too much. She also got the 3rd "study" letter then too.

1st twilight:
Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed

This still does not rule out that one of the 6 in the garden storehouse is faking and is actually still alive, when Nanjo checks them.

Noone ever checks the storehouse again and lives to tell about it. Thus a culprit's accomplace could break down the gate by force and let out the not-so-dead-faker.

When Battler first entered the shed, he was in an emotional rage. This may have indeed influenced the inspection of the crime scene and things like playing dead would be a piece of cake. However some of the "corpses" had their faces smashed. Those who did have their faces smashed are most likely not playing dead. Also because of his emotional state he could have easily missed other important details. Rereading the inspection carefully would not hurt.

While we are at it:
I think rereading the inspections of the crime scenes in general would be a good idea, as Battler has a "magic immune vision" (except the end of EP2 maybe). There are a LOT of things that one could have missed when reading it the first time. For example you should always see what Battler personally checked and what was merely told to him. Also suspicious behaviour or nervousity of people can be an indication that they are hiding something. If someone is good at lying though, you will not notice it is a lie that easily.

If you follow this way of thinking you can possibly make a lot of discoveries.

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Originally Posted by Sauzer

2nd twilight:
Both were killed by another person!
It is not the case that, after the construction of the closed room, one of them committed suicide after committing murder!
Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!
No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room!

"In the same room", but could be a different room. Eva had shoes on.
1. Hideyoshi was killed in their room, but Eva was killed in another room and then was carried back to her room.
2. Eva was about to leave her room when she was killed. Hideyoshi didn't hear that in the shower and was killed second.

Eva could have revisited the garden storehouse or went to the boiler room where she was killed "in the same room" by the culprit. Or she simply had plans to do so and told the culprit, after which she got killed.

When Kanon and Kumasawa rush off to the storehouse for tools (I asume it's another storehouse and not the rose garden storehouse? Otherwise wtf) Nanjo actually looks like he didnt go with Genji to Natsuhi. And when Genji arrives to the parlor, Nanjo is not seen. However this would give Nanjo a bit too little time to paint the door and he can't really help the culprit in any way.

Two options.
1. When Genji and Kanon arrive the culprit is inside and out of view. Once they leave the culprit opens the chain, paints the door, closes the chain again and hides under the bed untill everyone arrives and leaves after which the culprit escaped through the window and goes to the boiler room.

2. Some of the servants are involved. Either by letting the culprit escape or closing the window after the culprit left through it or killing Eva and Hideyoshi themselves. It can be [Genji, Kanon, Kumasawa], [Kanon, Kumasawa] or even just Kanon.
Noone knew wether Kumasawa was present when Kanon cut the chain. And if asked she might've been to ashamed to admit that she fell behind, and, since Kanon died soon after, there was no way to prove otherwise.
This would allow Kanon to close the window through which the culprit (even himself!) could've escaped before. ... Damn, actually this would be quite elegant.

Your solution works. You should also keep in mind that the way everything was shown may have been twisted. In EP4 all of the adults aknowledged the existence of "Kinzo", but Ushiromiya Kinzo was dead already. So WHO was that "Kinzo" then that everyone aknowledged? In the case, that the servants aknowledged that person as the "real head of the family", then maybe they followed that person's instructions as well. Of course the question would be whether any servants would be ready to kill or even die for that person, and if so, then which of them? Nonetheless you can create any combination of servants that would be able to kill Eva and Hideyoshi. If all three servants (Kanon, Genji, Kumasawa) were in cahots, then they could have even lied about "finding" the room in a locked state, which means they simply killed Eva and Hideyoshi and then simply cut the unlocked chain for appearences. But as you already noticed, it is possible for anyone who was not under Battler's observation the whole time (e.g. "dead" people in the shed), to be the culprit by hiding under the bed and leaving later on. They commit the murder, lock the chain, hide under the bed, wait for the servants to find the room and then, after they leave, the possible culprit could unlock the chain, paint the wall, hide the painting material and hide under the bed again.

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Originally Posted by Sauzer

Kanon's death:
All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
Kanon did not commit suicide
Kanon did not die in an accident!

Well this is interesting.. I was fine with letting Kanon die, so what the hell...

And infact these red truths are more confusing than anything else.
If I say Kumasawa killed Kanon it makes the first red truth false. Either Kumasawa's alibi is half-dead Kanon or she really did kill him.

And define survivors. If I think one of the 6 from garden storehouse is alive does that include him in survivors? He's clearly not dead either. And after 24:00 october 5 they all die anyway so in that sense there are no survivors.
Are the survivors just a point of view from Battler about who he thought were survivors? In that case since when do red truths deal in points of view?

Long story short. Either Kanon fakes his death with the help of Nanjo or the first red truth can be disregarded on the grounds of being convoluted.

Even if the first sentence of the first red truth may seem vague, the second sentence is quite concrete: In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!. As you also noticed, it was never said in red that he was actually dead. So he could have played dead. Well there is still another option: Kanon died by illness. The question though is, did Kanon have any indication of having a potentially deadly illness? And what about the stake then?

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Originally Posted by Sauzer

Letter in the study:
Maria places it.

Nothing to comment here. But keep your mind open for other possibilities as well.

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Originally Posted by Sauzer

Murders in the parlor:
Maria, who was in the same room, did not kill them!
And of course, the three were killed by other people!
Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not killers.

This still does not rule out that one of the 6 in the garden storehouse is faking and is actually still alive, when Nanjo checks them.
If Kanon faked his death, he also could have killed them.

Nothing to add. I cannot think of any different possibilities myself.

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Originally Posted by Sauzer

Natsuhi's death:
Natsuhi was killed by another person!
There are no unidentified corpses, and all of the survivors have alibis!
The bullet buried into Natsuhi's forehead was not fired from Natsuhi's gun!
The thing that shot Natsuhi wasn't a trap, it was a real shooting murder with a gun raised and trigger pulled!

This still does not rule out that one of the 6 in the garden storehouse is faking and is actually still alive, when Nanjo checks them.
If Kanon faked his death, he also could have killed her.

Nothing to add. I cannot think of any different possibilities myself.

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Originally Posted by Sauzer

Lets try to name actuall names:

1st confirmed Culprit:
Nanjo. He knows and hides the fact that Kinzo is dead. He likely had access to Kinzo's ring to make a copy or knew it's whereabouts to copy/steal it. Nanjo rarely if ever has an alibi for anything - 1st letter, 1st twilight, 2nd twilight, 2nd letter, 3rd letter. He also has the magic power to falsly confirm someone's death. Nanjo is killed once he outlives his usefullness (which seemed to be a trend even before ep4 as he never dies in 1st twilight and always ends up killed before the end).

We know that Nanjo is at least involved in hiding Kinzo's death. He could indeed be at least an accomplice. Unless the reason Kanon played dead had nothing to do with the murders and had some different goal and if you refuse the possibility that Kanon died by illness, then you could say that it is proven that Nanjo is at least an accomplice and possibly even a murderer.

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Originally Posted by Sauzer

2nd Culprit:
Kanon. or Rosa/Kyrie/Krauss/Shannon/Gohda/Rudolf

All survivors have alibis. And there are no more than 17 people on the island. Therefore one or more not-survivor is needed for the later crimes. Kanon is shown to be a wealking. Could it be an act? In all the "fantasy" moments he shows sudden "supernatural power". Even showing normal strenght would surprise people.

When creating a theory, where Kanon is actually completely innocent, aside from hiding Kinzo's death, then he would have to have died by illness. However there is still the possibility that he cooperates with one or more faking people from the shed. There are a lot possible "culprit-combinations" you could make. Of course even if Kanon fakes his death, it is not proven that he actually kills, or is involved in the murder of anyone. Though then why would he fake his death? A strategy for catching the culprit? Then why did he not appear again?

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Originally Posted by Sauzer

Some of the possible scenarios:

A. [Nanjo, Kanon, Kumasawa]

One of them gives 2 letters to Maria.
They carry out the first twilight.
Knowing the strained relationship between Natsuhi and Eva, they paint her door as a "prank Eva would do".
During the 6 hours Kanon or Nanjo found some time to burn Kinzo's body.
Kanon used some excuse to get himself into Eva's and Hideyoshi's room. He shoots them in the head and gauges the stakes in after that. After placing the letter he leaves through the window.
When Genji and Nanjo run off to the parlor Kanon gets the tools while Kumasawa goes straight to the door and paints it. After Kanon cuts the chain he closes the window.
In the boiler room Kumasawa carefully wounds Kanon and Genji treats him, secretly injecting a sedative so that he apears dead.
Maria places the letter.
Kannon kills the three in the parlor and then Natsuhi.
At 24:00 October 5 everyone dies.

This seems to be a valid possibility.

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Originally Posted by Sauzer

B. [Nanjo, Gohda]

One of them gives 2 letters to Maria.
They carry out the first twilight.
Knowing the strained relationship between Natsuhi and Eva, they paint her door as a "prank Eva would do".
Sometime during the 5 hours Nanjo got enough time alone to start burning Kinzo's body and to free Gohda from the storehouse. Eva went to the storehouse. Noticing a large hole in the gate, she went inside and got killed. Nanjo returns to the kitchen while Gohda carries Eva and then kills Hideyoshi.
When Genji and Kanon leave from Eva's room door, Gohda paints the door and then keeps hiding inside. After he leaves through the window.
In the boiler room he fataly wounds Kanon.
Maria places the letter.
Gohda kills the three in the parlor and then Natsuhi.
At 24:00 October 5 everyone dies.

More or less the same thing while replacing Gohda with the other five. Can add more accoplaces to make it easier, even Natsuhi and Eva, but even so they are not the main culprits and end up being killed once there is no use for them.

The problem of this scenario is: No kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon. So to make it work without Kanon as culprit or accomplice, you would have to make him die by illness. Alternatively he could also pretend to be dead but not be involved with the murders for some reason.

I don't understand why you are so pessimistic about the games. Your theories about EP1 are very well constructed and I can tell you that you are indeed making progress.

EDIT: While I wrote this, 4 new posts appeard. Well, that escalated quickly.

Sauzer · 2013-08-03, 03:05

Ooh, tag-teamed

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Kuwasawa can't be the culprit because

Nanjo, Genji, Kuwasawa aren't killers

Ah. I thought it only applied to the "murder in the parlor" part, not the whole ep1. Fair enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Problem: The chain can only bet set from the inside, and the locations of Eva's and Hideyoshi's corpses keep them from being killed from outside the room.

the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!

Hideoyshi is killed in Eva's room with the culprit inside the room.
Eva is killed in the boiler room, with the culprit inside the room.
Just an example, but that's what I meant. They did not need to die inside Eva's room. Just be in the same room as the culprit at the moment of their death. It does not solve the closed room. Just creates a possibility of Eva being killed because she witnessed something, or something else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I don't recall if this is ever addressed, but what if the windows to the room were locked from the inside? Anyway, if the killer was someone hiding under the bed and/or escaping out the window, it can only be someone faking a death, since pretty much everyone was gathered in Eva's room when they were discovered.

Here's the possibility I meant.
a. culprit kills Eva and Hideyoshi and escapes through the window, Kanon breaks the chain and closes that window before everyone else gets there.
b. Kanon kills Eva and Hideyoshi, escapes through the window, half an hour later comes with Genji and knocks on the door, Genji runs to Natsuhi while Kanon breaks the chain and closes the window before everyone else comes to the room.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

If someone is not dead, they are a survivor.

Hm, so anyone I "revive" as faking death get's an alibi anyway... But for Kanon's death there was added Let us include the dead as well!!
Doesn't that mean that there is a difference between "survivor" and who the people think are "dead"? Still seems like there's a loophole.

Not to mention that in case there seems to be a contradiction.
Natsuhi was killed by another person!
There are no unidentified corpses, and all of the survivors have alibis!
If someone not dead = a survivor, then there is no human on the island who can kill Natsuhi. Thus survivor has a different meaning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Wait a minute, how is Nanjo a confirmed culprit?

For the purpose of Beato's game, btw? A culprit is someone who kills. Assisting them just makes you an accomplice.

Erm, my wording was poor. I did infact mean a key accomplace. Nanjo has a lot of circumstantial evidence against him, coupled with no alibis. The motive of bribery can work of him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Battler saw most of the bodies with smashed faces, and the unidentified corpses red confirms that they're dead. Under your reasoning, only one of the six can be faking dead.

I'm not sure how my reasoning denies the posibility of Kanon faking his death with help of Nanjo?

And also I thought that the "the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed" just confirmed that the dead people are who they seem they are, not that they are 100% dead for certain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Anyway, aside from those comments I can't poke any holes in your EP1 solution yet. Two questions: "Why does everyone die at 24:00 October 5?" and "What is Kanon's motive for killing?"

For now I refuse to specify beyond "an event beyond human control". And even if this event is set in motion by human hands it would happen anyway unless all 17 actively tried to prevent it.
As for Kanon's motive, I also refuse to specify at this time

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

The question is... WHO or WHAT caused that "accident"? Was it just a "tragical accident"? Or was it "intentional mass murder"? And WHAT exactly was the "accident" itself?

For the time being I refuse to specify. However I think that this "event" happens regardless of the killings on october 4-5, so for now I leave it as a mystery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Well there is still another option: Kanon died by illness. The question though is, did Kanon have any indication of having a potentially deadly illness? And what about the stake then?

Yeah, but this is the problem. How does some one dying by natural causes ends up with a Stake. Kinzo was dead a long time ago, so whoever burned the corpse could've added the stake. Kanon was still alive. If he's about to die of ilness anyway seems pointless to stake him as well. And why would he stake himself if he's about to die of ilness?

It's the same with Jessica in ep2. She could've died from her Astma and created a locked room that way. However she ends up with a Stake in her back, which someone had to place after her death, recreating the closed room. So wether she dies from "natural" causes or not does not help solve the close room because of the added "unnatural" element.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Nanjo is at least an accomplice and possibly even a murderer.

Well it seems he get's a "red pass" on being a killer in ep1. But I didn't really think he actively killed anyone so that's ok. Though if you twist it a bit you can be labeled "murderer" legaly without actually pulling the triger yourself, if I'm not mistaken.

Oh and the reason Kanon now is a major suspect
Is because unless the culprit hides inside the room, Kanon is the one who verifies it as "sealed" both in Kanon/Genji and Kanon/Kumasawa situation. Without Kanon's involvement in any way the culprit cannot escape Eva's room while still creating a closed room. However Kumasawa's or Genji's involvement is not 100% needed.
While on the other hand if Kanon is not involved in the 2nd twilight, his death in the boiler room becomes an event greater mystery as everyone get's a "red alibi" against killing him.

AuraTwilight · 2013-08-03, 03:27

Quote:

the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!

Hideoyshi is killed in Eva's room with the culprit inside the room.
Eva is killed in the boiler room, with the culprit inside the room.
Just an example, but that's what I meant. They did not need to die inside Eva's room. Just be in the same room as the culprit at the moment of their death. It does not solve the closed room. Just creates a possibility of Eva being killed because she witnessed something, or something else.

This really doesn't do anything except complicate the problem, though. Either way, the culprit needs to enter the room, do something, leave the room, and leave the chain set from the outside somehow, which is impossible. Separating Eva from Hideyoshi, killing her somewhere else, and carrying her back in unnoticed just creates more work, for you and the culprit.

Quote:

Here's the possibility I meant.
a. culprit kills Eva and Hideyoshi and escapes through the window, Kanon breaks the chain and closes that window before everyone else gets there.
b. Kanon kills Eva and Hideyoshi, escapes through the window, half an hour later comes with Genji and knocks on the door, Genji runs to Natsuhi while Kanon breaks the chain and closes the window before everyone else comes to the room.

I think you can delete some steps here and make your solution more elegant; especially if you're going to accuse Kanon as the killer.

Quote:

Hm, so anyone I "revive" as faking death get's an alibi anyway... But for Kanon's death there was added Let us include the dead as well!!
Doesn't that mean that there is a difference between "survivor" and who the people think are "dead"? Still seems like there's a loophole.

Indeed. I'll leave this puzzle for you to think over.

Quote:

I'm not sure how my reasoning denies the posibility of Kanon faking his death with help of Nanjo?

It doesn't, I'm talking about the six from the First Twilight; Shannon's really the only one capable of faking, due to how the red is constructed.

Quote:

For now I refuse to specify beyond "an event beyond human control". And even if this event is set in motion by human hands it would happen anyway unless all 17 actively tried to prevent it.
As for Kanon's motive, I also refuse to specify at this time

A Mystery requires a Howdunnit, a Whodunnit, and a Whydunnit. Don't forget the heart! Did Eva-Beatrice not try and use unexplained motive to argue she controlled Kyrie with magic? Don't give the witch any footing!

GreyZone · 2013-08-03, 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauzer

Not to mention that in case there seems to be a contradiction.
Natsuhi was killed by another person!
There are no unidentified corpses, and all of the survivors have alibis!
If someone not dead = a survivor, then there is no human on the island who can kill Natsuhi. Thus survivor has a different meaning.

The first part "There are no unidentified corpses" is something glabal, however the second part "all of the survivors have alibis" only applies to Kanon's supposed "death" and has nothing to do with Natsuhi's death.

Sauzer · 2013-08-03, 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

The first part "There are no unidentified corpses" is something glabal, however the second part "all of the survivors have alibis" only applies to Kanon's supposed "death" and has nothing to do with Natsuhi's death.

No, it applies to Natsuhi's death aswell.

Beatrice: Natsuhi was killed by another person! There are no unidentified corpses, and all of the survivors have alibis!
The bullet buried into Natsuhi's forehead was not fired from Natsuhi's gun!

When talking about Natsuhi's death

2013-08-02, 11:39	Link #4567
Sauzer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007	Spoiler for OK, first just a bit of warm-up.: Universal: Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games! Before now, I have proclaimed that no more than 18 humans exist on this island. I will lower that by one for Kinzo!! No more than 17 humans exist on this island!! That excludes any 18th person. In short, this 18th person X does not exist!! This applies to all games!!! At least Krauss, Natsuhi, Nanjo, Genji, Shannon and Kanon know this. Despite that they never once mention this fact (at least infront of Battler) during mass murders. Rocks fall, everyone dies. Some kind of accident happens at 24:00 October 5, possibly triggered by Battler directly or indirectly (dislodged a small rock that caused an avalanche 6 years later). Only way to escape it is to leave the mansion area by a significant distance. Ange is an inheritor. I'm so sad I did not see this sooner. Someone's goal could infact be to kill everyone and then control the entire Ushiromiya fortune through 6-year old kid. Prime suspects naturaly become Sumadera family. They can just buy a couple of people, doesn't matter who. Siblings are desperate for 250 million. The servants would settle for less. Problem with this theory is that Ange was left behind only because she got sick at the last minute. So either Sumaderas planned to kill everyone except Ange or Kyrie is at the least an accomplace or the mastermind and she's the one who makes Ange sick to keep her from coming to the island. And problem with that theory is that I need to prove Kyrie is the culprit. Which is hard because, while she is a likely suspect in ep1, ep3 and ep4, she is 100% confirmed dead in red on the first twilight in ep2; in ep3 only Jessica, Battler and Eva are alive and in ep4 Battler confirms Kyrie is dead by pulling out the stake out of her skull. Maybe she's the unluckiest criminal in existance and gets herself killed everytime in retarted ways? Would be fun to try out this theory. Maria is a wolf. From this point onward I'm treating Maria as actively helping "Beatrice" by any and all means a 9-year old could. The person who wrote in her diary would know of her anger towards Rosa, belief in the witch Beatrice and could easily trick or otherwise manipulate Maria into becoming an accomplace, even if it's just limited to letters. It is possible to get weapons onto the island. Kasumi's guards managed to get guns through the airport, same trick can be used by anyone else, gaining a significant advantage on the Rokenjima island. After all covering objects in aluminum foil easily lets you get past metal detectors. This is common knowladge in boxing. Kanon's name. "Kanon" is dead. The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself! A different person cannot claim his name! So far so good. In theory it still leaves a slight possibility that Kanon has 2 personalities and at some point "Kanon" is killed and "xxxx" is still running around killing people. But I'd be livid if this turned out to be true. That would be just blatant cheating. In ep3 Evatrice's red web was a great, very hard mystery that ends up just a clever word play and then adding 3 tons of useless information for more confusion. However if during "Kanon was killed" and "In short, he was the 9th victim." a human being that once held the name Kanon was still running around, that would be so much cheating At least during "Kinzo is dead" he really is dead. He just died a lot sooner. ... no... no! don't give me that ""Kanon" personality was dead this entire time, this is a different persononality"!!!!! Not to mention that if this theory were to be true, then the entire ep4 mystery becomes a joke - Kanon kills everyone. the end. Especially since Battler views "Kanon" as a "person Kanon" not a "personality Kanon",then telling "Kanon is dead" when he isn't would be lying to Battler. With "Kinzo is dead" Beatrice had to trend very carefully and even conceded the 1st twilight of ep3 to Battler in order to avoid lying in red or giving too big a hint that Kinzo died long ago. Also Kanon is still a weakling. So screw this theory. In some form magic confirmed as false. In it's literal form at least. While Maria saw Sakutarou as everyone on the Island would see the Stakes or Goat-heads during "fantasy moments", everyone around her saw just a toy that Maria played with using venquilitrism. Despite the fact that Sakutarou was confirmed by Beatrice and Virgilia. And on that note Beatrice also starts to seem as Maria's imaginary friend - appearing to Maria while she is not even on the Island. Talking to myself That's right, I'm Ange!! The Ushiromiya Ange of a world where no one comes home...!! .........My entire family...never came home from Rokkenjima that day...!! Wait... crap. She's not from the ep3 world? in ep3 world Eva comes back. Eva is still family, she's still some one, right? Don't answer. Ushiromiya Battler has a sin Because of your sin, people die. Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die. No one escapes, all die. And doesn't that mean everyone dies? So even Eva would have to die? Doesn't that mean she couldn't escape after all? I mean sure Eva does die eventually (like all humans), but she did escape. wtf. It can't be another mass-death surely. Something like that would be remembered no matter how long ago. Oh, also what the hell did Ange see in 1998 in the Captain Kawabata's house? __________________

2013-08-02, 11:58	Link #4568
GreyZone "Senior" "Member" Join Date: Jan 2012	About Kanon killing everyone on Rokkenjima: Ushiromiya Battler. I will now...kill you. And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere. You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you. No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game So Kanon cannot be the one who kills Battler at the end, even if he really would be a different "personality". Also if you have a theory like this, you should check if there are any hints about it in the earlier episodes, or not. That applies to any other theories as well. (You don't have to rewatch them, but you can at least "think back" and possibly rewatch individual scenes again). This also applies to "rocks falling down". Is that supported anywhere in the story? Did Battler observe anything that could lead to that conclusion? Did anyone talk about "unstable rocks" or something? To get a proper theory for the "accident", you should try to think about it. When does it happen? What are you basing it on? What was said about rokkenjima/the guesthouse/the masion/the secret passages/the secret mansion, that could support your theory? Or do it backwards: Check what you know about the island again and from that create a theory. __________________

2013-08-02, 15:08	Link #4571
Sauzer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007	No, don't spoil it. I asume it's explained in VN sooner or later. And yes I'm not quoting you because I learned from my past mistake of dealing with spoiler tags. And saying "Dont read this .... MUAHAHA this is so funny, too bad you can't read this!" is too cruel. ... And wait a minute!!! "She's talking about her immediate family for dramatic effect, here. She never really accepted Eva as a replacement caretaker and is emphasizing that her most important family is gone." As touching as that whole scene was, really it was. BUT! She used red truth. Call me nitpicky or bullying a dying girl, but she used red truth! And in this case (if she really is ep3 Ange) she used it as "true for her" or "true from her point of view" but not the absolute truth. Anyway. Spoiler for Episode 1: Beatrice's letters: Kinzo is dead. One of the 6+ people who knew he's dead also knew where to get Kinzo's ring and either made a copy of it or just stole it, thus one of those is a culprit/accomplace. Maria is helping Beatrice. Wether she got the first letter in the rose garden or even before the typhoon started doesn't change too much. She also got the 3rd "study" letter then too. 1st twilight: Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist! the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed This still does not rule out that one of the 6 in the garden storehouse is faking and is actually still alive, when Nanjo checks them. Noone ever checks the storehouse again and lives to tell about it. Thus a culprit's accomplace could break down the gate by force and let out the not-so-dead-faker. 2nd twilight: Both were killed by another person! It is not the case that, after the construction of the closed room, one of them committed suicide after committing murder! Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room! No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room! "In the same room", but could be a different room. Eva had shoes on. 1. Hideyoshi was killed in their room, but Eva was killed in another room and then was carried back to her room. 2. Eva was about to leave her room when she was killed. Hideyoshi didn't hear that in the shower and was killed second. Eva could have revisited the garden storehouse or went to the boiler room where she was killed "in the same room" by the culprit. Or she simply had plans to do so and told the culprit, after which she got killed. When Kanon and Kumasawa rush off to the storehouse for tools (I asume it's another storehouse and not the rose garden storehouse? Otherwise wtf) Nanjo actually looks like he didnt go with Genji to Natsuhi. And when Genji arrives to the parlor, Nanjo is not seen. However this would give Nanjo a bit too little time to paint the door and he can't really help the culprit in any way. Two options. 1. When Genji and Kanon arrive the culprit is inside and out of view. Once they leave the culprit opens the chain, paints the door, closes the chain again and hides under the bed untill everyone arrives and leaves after which the culprit escaped through the window and goes to the boiler room. 2. Some of the servants are involved. Either by letting the culprit escape or closing the window after the culprit left through it or killing Eva and Hideyoshi themselves. It can be [Genji, Kanon, Kumasawa], [Kanon, Kumasawa] or even just Kanon. Noone knew wether Kumasawa was present when Kanon cut the chain. And if asked she might've been to ashamed to admit that she fell behind, and, since Kanon died soon after, there was no way to prove otherwise. This would allow Kanon to close the window through which the culprit (even himself!) could've escaped before. ... Damn, actually this would be quite elegant. Kanon's death: All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon! Kanon did not commit suicide Kanon did not die in an accident! Well this is interesting.. I was fine with letting Kanon die, so what the hell... And infact these red truths are more confusing than anything else. If I say Kumasawa killed Kanon it makes the first red truth false. Either Kumasawa's alibi is half-dead Kanon or she really did kill him. And define survivors. If I think one of the 6 from garden storehouse is alive does that include him in survivors? He's clearly not dead either. And after 24:00 october 5 they all die anyway so in that sense there are no survivors. Are the survivors just a point of view from Battler about who he thought were survivors? In that case since when do red truths deal in points of view? Long story short. Either Kanon fakes his death with the help of Nanjo or the first red truth can be disregarded on the grounds of being convoluted. Letter in the study: Maria places it. Murders in the parlor: Maria, who was in the same room, did not kill them! And of course, the three were killed by other people! Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist! the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not killers. This still does not rule out that one of the 6 in the garden storehouse is faking and is actually still alive, when Nanjo checks them. If Kanon faked his death, he also could have killed them. Natsuhi's death: Natsuhi was killed by another person! There are no unidentified corpses, and all of the survivors have alibis! The bullet buried into Natsuhi's forehead was not fired from Natsuhi's gun! The thing that shot Natsuhi wasn't a trap, it was a real shooting murder with a gun raised and trigger pulled! This still does not rule out that one of the 6 in the garden storehouse is faking and is actually still alive, when Nanjo checks them. If Kanon faked his death, he also could have killed her. Lets try to name actuall names: 1st confirmed Culprit: Nanjo. He knows and hides the fact that Kinzo is dead. He likely had access to Kinzo's ring to make a copy or knew it's whereabouts to copy/steal it. Nanjo rarely if ever has an alibi for anything - 1st letter, 1st twilight, 2nd twilight, 2nd letter, 3rd letter. He also has the magic power to falsly confirm someone's death. Nanjo is killed once he outlives his usefullness (which seemed to be a trend even before ep4 as he never dies in 1st twilight and always ends up killed before the end). 2nd Culprit: Kanon. or Rosa/Kyrie/Krauss/Shannon/Gohda/Rudolf All survivors have alibis. And there are no more than 17 people on the island. Therefore one or more not-survivor is needed for the later crimes. Kanon is shown to be a wealking. Could it be an act? In all the "fantasy" moments he shows sudden "supernatural power". Even showing normal strenght would surprise people. Some of the possible scenarios: A. [Nanjo, Kanon, Kumasawa] One of them gives 2 letters to Maria. They carry out the first twilight. Knowing the strained relationship between Natsuhi and Eva, they paint her door as a "prank Eva would do". During the 6 hours Kanon or Nanjo found some time to burn Kinzo's body. Kanon used some excuse to get himself into Eva's and Hideyoshi's room. He shoots them in the head and gauges the stakes in after that. After placing the letter he leaves through the window. When Genji and Nanjo run off to the parlor Kanon gets the tools while Kumasawa goes straight to the door and paints it. After Kanon cuts the chain he closes the window. In the boiler room Kumasawa carefully wounds Kanon and Genji treats him, secretly injecting a sedative so that he apears dead. Maria places the letter. Kannon kills the three in the parlor and then Natsuhi. At 24:00 October 5 everyone dies. B. [Nanjo, Gohda] One of them gives 2 letters to Maria. They carry out the first twilight. Knowing the strained relationship between Natsuhi and Eva, they paint her door as a "prank Eva would do". Sometime during the 5 hours Nanjo got enough time alone to start burning Kinzo's body and to free Gohda from the storehouse. Eva went to the storehouse. Noticing a large hole in the gate, she went inside and got killed. Nanjo returns to the kitchen while Gohda carries Eva and then kills Hideyoshi. When Genji and Kanon leave from Eva's room door, Gohda paints the door and then keeps hiding inside. After he leaves through the window. In the boiler room he fataly wounds Kanon. Maria places the letter. Gohda kills the three in the parlor and then Natsuhi. At 24:00 October 5 everyone dies. More or less the same thing while replacing Gohda with the other five. Can add more accoplaces to make it easier, even Natsuhi and Eva, but even so they are not the main culprits and end up being killed once there is no use for them. __________________ Last edited by Sauzer; 2013-08-02 at 15:29.

2013-08-02, 18:13	Link #4572
ALPHA-Beatrice Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2013	Kuwasawa can't be the culprit because Nanjo, Genji, Kuwasawa aren't killers Last edited by ALPHA-Beatrice; 2013-08-02 at 18:33.

2013-08-02, 03:28	Link #4563
ALPHA-Beatrice Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2013	But keep in mind, up until that point it was as if Lady Beatrice was alone on the game board. The Blue Truth allows Battler to place some chess pieces on the board so to speak and to "deny" Lady Beatrice.

2013-08-02, 04:18	Link #4565
Drifloon Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011	I would recommend against relying too much on the red truth as a reasoning tool. It is extremely useful, but Umineko can't be solved without also paying close attention to the white text. Anyway, you can find all the red truths here. It shouldn't be too hard to just avoid reading past the end of Alliance.