Opinions on Hitsugaya Toushirou [spoiler]

[cheese no koma]

i would have to go for hitsugaya because the way aizen finishes him with just one arm makes him look like a total push over.

[Snubben_Pierre]

Originally Posted by cheese no koma

i would have to go for hitsugaya because the way aizen finishes him with just one arm makes him look like a total push over.

Im gonna start with commenting your post, just to try to make you change your mind, although your allowed to think whatever you want..

Aizen first of all is easily above most of the captains in lvl, he finishes komamura,ichigo,renji easily on his own on mount execution.. he stops ichigos slice with a finger, ichigo the one that has defeated 3 captain lvls (although one is ranked vice captain but could probably turn into captain +

Spoiler:

ikkaku from division 11 whom is also captain lvl because he has achieved bankai

..
so making that comparison is pretty unfair.. Hitsugaya fights pretty evenly with Gin (although unfortunateley we dont get to see such a huge battle there.. Also

Spoiler:

he fought one of the arrancar bastards pretty good actually

.

Although i think its hard to decide witch captain is weakest since many of them are specialists in diffrent areas i would claim komamura is the weakest, and his bankai didnt give me such a huge impression because of the size of it..

also Unohana, but she is very strong in the sense of medical skills so I cant say she is weakest..

You understand my reasoning? Im commenting on your post so we at least get some discussion in this thread.

[hdx514]

hitsu is inexperienced, but loosing easily to aizen does not in any way make him or komamura or anyone total push overs. if you're up to date on the manga...well, IF you are than you wouldn't have made that comment anyway.

there's really not enough evidence to decide who's the weakest. we pretty much know for sure the strongest, and several others who can't be the weakest, but that's all we know

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by hdx514

hitsu is inexperienced, but loosing easily to aizen does not in any way make him or komamura or anyone total push overs. if you're up to date on the manga...well, IF you are than you wouldn't have made that comment anyway.

You know, forgive me, but how do you know this? Maybe I missed something. Not to mention, What experience has to do Wiht Anything related to strenght?

[hdx514]

Spoiler for manga:

during the fight between hitsu and shawlong, shawlong commented on his opponent's bankai nearing its time limit. he said hitsu was still too young and hadn't completed his bankai yet. since bankai requires the support of huge amount of reiatsu hitsu couldn't keep it for a long period of time and those ice petals on his back act as a countdown of sorts and his bankai would completely disspear along with the last ice petal. sure enough, while renji, matsumoto and ikkaku were left standing after their fights, hitsu was half dead

experience has NOTHING to do with anything strength-related? surely you jest! recall what byakuya was saying to renji when he easily defeated his newly acquired bankai form. why do you think they train for 6 years at the academy? or go on field trips before graduating? for fun? why do you think the oldest captain is also the strongest? and before you say anything, please don't give me the ichigo argument.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by hdx514

Spoiler:

during the fight between hitsu and shawlong, shawlong commented on his opponent's bankai nearing its time limit. he said hitsu was still too young and hadn't completed his bankai yet. since bankai requires the support of huge amount of reiatsu hitsu couldn't keep it for a long period of time and those ice petals on his back act as a countdown of sorts and his bankai would completely disspear along with the last ice petal. sure enough, while renji, matsumoto and ikkaku were left standing after their fights, hitsu was half dead

experience has NOTHING to do with anything strength-related? surely you jest! recall what byakuya was saying to renji when he easily defeated his newly acquired bankai form. why do you think they train for 6 years at the academy? or go on field trips before graduating? for fun? why do you think the oldest captain is also the strongest? and before you say anything, please don't give me the ichigo argument.

Why? because Ichigo in just some 4 months became one of the strongest and thus destroying your assupmtion?

And then in this type of Series, The kids are usually the one that gets stronger than the old and experinced ones.

Ohh reagdading your Observation about the Manga:

Spoiler:

You cleverly avoided the fact that all of them were under the Control placed on them by SS, so Shawlong Observation is moot about Hitusgaya

Once again, It seems you did not get my question reagarding your Observation, lets make it more clear:

Where It was stated that Hitsugaya is Inexperienced? You did not say he had less experince than others, You say he was inexperinced. how do you know he does not have more experince than Renji or Matsumoto? or any of the captains?

[billbrown]

Originally Posted by Rurik

You know, forgive me, but how do you know this? Maybe I missed something. Not to mention, What experience has to do Wiht Anything related to strenght?

Experience has a lot to do with strength. What you're thinking of is potential, which Hitsu has in spades, being billed as a genius and achieving bankai at such an age. But what experience does is enhance technique, and technique acts as a modifier to strength; It's not how hard you swing, but how well you can swing it. Now what happens when you can swing both hard and very well? That's the effect experience has on strength.

Take a look at Byakuya's fight against Renji, where he mentioned that it takes years of training to master your bankai after achieving it. Then he proceeded to fight Ichigo, and is the only bankai user if I remember to show multiple facets of his bankai(first the multiple swords, then the combining of them into one powerful sword). I think that second element comes from his experience with bankai.

On a side note, first time poster, long time reader.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by billbrown

Experience has a lot to do with strength. What you're thinking of is potential, which Hitsu has in spades, being billed as a genius and achieving bankai at such an age. But what experience does is enhance technique, and technique acts as a modifier to strength; It's not how hard you swing, but how well you can swing it. Now what happens when you can swing both hard and very well? That's the effect experience has on strength.

Experience has a lot to do with strength when you need to have an Idea of someone strenght when they are not Characters as Important as the principals, and then, Kubo could care less about that and Have Aizen Beating Yamamato.


Once again, Experince can help you dictate the strenght but at the end, The most experinced does not equates in the strongest. this is a series where 17 years old are the one that beats everybody.

[billbrown]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Why? because Ichigo in just some 4 months became one of the strongest and thus destroying your assupmtion?

I would agree that you can't pull out an Ichigo card because he is the exception that proves the rule. Everyone is so tremendously surprised by Ichigo's growth that it supports the precedent that bankai achievement and mastery do take experience. Not to mention he's the main character lol. Even Ichigo faltered in his first use of bankai against Byakuya, and without his hollow intervening Ichigo would've been a goner.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by billbrown

I would agree that you can't pull out an Ichigo card because he is the exception that proves the rule. Everyone is so tremendously surprised by Ichigo's growth that it supports the precedent that bankai achievement and mastery do take experience. Not to mention he's the main character lol. Even Ichigo faltered in his first use of bankai against Byakuya, and without his hollow intervening Ichigo would've been a goner.

Is all the way around, Ichihgo is the example why The Experience is strenght analogy is incorrect, not only Ichigo gets stronger and defeat those who are more expericed thanks to plot drven situations, but Ichigo been a Principal Character does not take the fact that he still Defeated this people with his strenght, Just like Chad And Ishida.

[ScytheBlade]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Is all the way around, Ichihgo is the example why The Experience is strenght analogy is incorrect, not only Ichigo gets stronger and defeat those who are more expericed thanks to plot drven situations, but Ichigo been a Principal Character does not take the fact that he still Defeated this people with his strenght, Just like Chad And Ishida.

We almost never see Chad fight and Ishida uses a more strategic approach to his fighting.

[hdx514]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Why? because Ichigo in just some 4 months became one of the strongest and thus destroying your assupmtion?

here we go again. just what's with you "if it applies to ichigo, it applies to everyone" people? ichigo is the protagonist of the series, he is THE KID. hitsu is a popular supporting role.

you know why we can't use ichigo's argument? because if several months is all it takes IN GENERAL to get to captain class, then EVERYONE in S.S. would be captain class. power is related to experience IN GENERAL. that's why it takes decades to learn and master bankai IN GENERAL. you said experience doesn't have ANYTHING to do with power, i say it does IN GENERAL

You cleverly avoided the fact that all of them were under the Control placed on them by SS, so Shawlong Observation is moot about Hitusgaya

didn't you just cleverly avoided my renji example?

Where It was stated that Hitsugaya is Inexperienced? You did not say he had less experince than others, You say he was inexperinced. how do you know he does not have more experince than Renji or Matsumoto? or any of the captains?

recall the original name of this thread was who's the weakest CAPTAIN. which means everyone else from VC to seats were OUT OF THE QUESTION at the time of my post. if i say hitsugaya is the weakest in this thread, who'd you think i'm comparing him to, matsumoto? hanataro? ryukongai citizen? geez. compared to all other captains, hitsu the least experienced, obviously because he is the youngest. they wouldn't be calling him a boy genius if he actually became captain after getting more battle/training experience than some of the other captains now would they?

[kagato3]

Hitsu has been a captian for less then 50 years as he had not even started school when Renji and co had. Aside from Gin, and likely Tousen and Komamura all have had at least 50 years as captians plus an unknown time that was > then 50 years as seated officers.

Ichigo's potential is stronger the just about everyone by a HUGE factor, he has never gained a "power up" just learned how to unlock the power he already had and even then I can't think of a single time he has had a clean win durring a fight.

[hdx514]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Is all the way around, Ichihgo is the example why The Experience is strenght analogy is incorrect, not only Ichigo gets stronger and defeat those who are more expericed thanks to plot drven situations, but Ichigo been a Principal Character does not take the fact that he still Defeated this people with his strenght, Just like Chad And Ishida.

this is utterly moronic. one or several exceptions to a mathematical model of a real life system does not invalidate that model, just like a crashed 747 does not make commercial fights unsafe, or relativity does not make newtonian mechanics incorrect. heard of the normal/gaussian distribution? with your logic, i could randomly pick the height distribution of any town and totally put this model to rest while getting the fields medal

[Dark`]

Originally Posted by hdx514

Spoiler for manga:

during the fight between hitsu and shawlong, shawlong commented on his opponent's bankai nearing its time limit. he said hitsu was still too young and hadn't completed his bankai yet. since bankai requires the support of huge amount of reiatsu hitsu couldn't keep it for a long period of time and those ice petals on his back act as a countdown of sorts and his bankai would completely disspear along with the last ice petal. sure enough, while renji, matsumoto and ikkaku were left standing after their fights, hitsu was half dead

Spoiler for Don't read if you're not up to date with the manga:

Spoiler for I warned you...:

While Renji and Matsumoto were indeed left standing after their fights, Ikkaku was pretty banged up too. Perhaps not as bad as Hitsugaya, but enough that he was laying on his back and basically out of commission. Not trying to argue that because of that Ikkaku is "weaker" or "as weak" as Hitsugaya...just pointing that fact out.

[Zu Ra]

Hitsugaya maybe a prodigy in terms of talent and was also fastest shinigami to attain Taicho Rank .

But he is greeen horn in terms of power . I mean due to excess fan-girlism followed everywhere in terms of his chibi Kwaii-ness . He is overhyped more than his actual poptential . No doubt he is a good Taicho but no where near greatness , as many Bleach Otaku rate him as

Spoiler for Manga:

Hitsugaya's Bankai is not yet perfect or better say he has not mastered in totality , its cleary seen in Hitsu Vs Shawlong battle . Also there are two stages in Bankai ( i.e. Byakuya ) to be near Greatness he has to acheive both .

NO he is not the weakest Taicho in Sendai no Gotei , there are weaker Taichos like Tosen Komamura and Gin

[cheese no koma]

i have yet to read the manga, so pardon me. Up till now, histugaya has yet to win a fight, a draw with gin, a lost to aizen, and he's even struggling when facing ichinose, a VC level shinigami. At least Aizen feels the need to use his 'finger' to stop ichigo's slash and a strong kidou to repel kamamura, and besides, ichigo was hurt at that time by byakuya so he's not up to his best yet, and kamamura was fighting with zaraki, but hitsugaya was in tip top condition. i thought that he should at least exchange a few sword blows first before being owned so easily along with his bankai.

[Kenji_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Dark`

Spoiler for Don't read if you're not up to date with the manga:

Spoiler for I warned you...:

While Renji and Matsumoto were indeed left standing after their fights, Ikkaku was pretty banged up too. Perhaps not as bad as Hitsugaya, but enough that he was laying on his back and basically out of commission. Not trying to argue that because of that Ikkaku is "weaker" or "as weak" as Hitsugaya...just pointing that fact out.

click this if u have read the manga

Spoiler:

not really...
hitsugaya's opponent was probably the strongest compare to matsumoto, renji and ikkaku's opponent as hitsugaya's opponent is number 11 and number 10 below its the strongest.

actually renji would be beaten up as badly as ikkaku if the small girl who works in urahara shop (i forgot wat's her name) didnt turns up and safe his ass half way

and it is very obvious at such a young age, hitsugaya is indeed has less experience compare to the other captains....
and i would say he is like the weakest captain in the whole gotei 13 as each captain has its own special ability and weaknesses....
and also it is unfair to compare them with ichigo,as ichigo is like the main character with gifted special abilities ^^

[Scep]

Spoiler for manga:

^not really. If you read the chapter, after placing 10, arracnars are not numbered by strength.

There is nothing to prove that ALL bankais have 2 stages. As of now, only byakuya has shown he has a few pretty stages, and i think its pretty oibvious he might be the only one ever to.

While hitsugaya got pretty beaten up, think of it, without limiter, it would have been a 1hko. sure, the battle shows that his stamina sucks like hell and he cannot fight in long battles, but strength wise it does not say anything.

@cheese no koma: ichinose is out of discussion, he's a filler character. Aizen had the time to cast a black coffin BECAUSE he had his shikai on. Similarly he oso shikai'ed hitsugaya. Lots of evidence proves that he probably did the same to ichigo, though it isnt clear. You might as well say, aizen didnt even bother to pull a sword against komamura :roll:

[Kenji_Chaos]

Originally Posted by sceptileex

Spoiler for manga:

^not really. If you read the chapter, after placing 10, arracnars are not numbered by strength.

There is nothing to prove that ALL bankais have 2 stages. As of now, only byakuya has shown he has a few pretty stages, and i think its pretty oibvious he might be the only one ever to.

While hitsugaya got pretty beaten up, think of it, without limiter, it would have been a 1hko. sure, the battle shows that his stamina sucks like hell and he cannot fight in long battles, but strength wise it does not say anything.

@cheese no koma: ichinose is out of discussion, he's a filler character. Aizen had the time to cast a black coffin BECAUSE he had his shikai on. Similarly he oso shikai'ed hitsugaya. Lots of evidence proves that he probably did the same to ichigo, though it isnt clear. You might as well say, aizen didnt even bother to pull a sword against komamura :roll:

Spoiler:

oh yeah...but shawlong says that the numbers are given by the other that they are born rather than their strength..however it does not applied to those who are 11th and below....and those who are extraodinary and numbered from 1-10...