2014-03-10, 10:02
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Link #34081 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 39
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Yes, he saw himself as the sole decision-maker for the house of Ushiromiya, seeing everything else as practically his belongings, but from his perspective at that time he behaved accordingly. Yes, he hit his children but none of that was abuse but, from his perspective, education. His children were pretty horrible and partly horrible because of him, but there was no indication towards his behavior being at fault. Yes, he neglected his family and his wife, but a father was seen more as a bread-winner, disciplinarian, and decision-maker, not as a source for emotional care and shelter. Yes, he is drawn as a raving madman by Yasu, but considering the way the family situation had developed it is not unlikely that Yasu did not know him differently. During the mid to late 70s (when Yasu would have started remembering him) he was likely already quite brooding and his family already largely estranged. There was a huge rift between his two eldest children, his eldest was squandering money, his eldest daughter was doing her best to show off in front of her brother instead of concentrating on actually succeeding, his next son was a philandering playboy, and his youngest daughter a socially inept dreamer who was probably already dating good-for-nothings then. Yes, it's a grave of his own making (though his wife apparently drawing the children into her paranoia as well is not an ideal mother either) but he had at least reasons for being disappointed with his family. Considering he was always emotion over reason, he would have probably occasionally blurted out that he would rather have them die then Beatrice. |
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2014-03-10, 11:29
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Link #34082 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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At the same time, the general way things work is that the head of the household bears the responsibility for that. If his kids are a disappointment, that's a reflection on him as the family head. While it's certainly possible for kids to turn out rotten in spite of a parent's best efforts, it doesn't seem like Kinzo was trying that hard to produce responsible, rational children. Apparently little of his business acumen rubbed off on Krauss, nor his risk-taking personality. He was an active impediment to Eva's ambitions. He enabled Rudolf's misbehavior. And he almost certainly neglected Rosa more or less entirely.
No doubt his wife didn't do her part either, but that's kind of the point. The two of them obviously never really saw eye to eye or cooperated as partners because he resented her even existing. It's little wonder they did poorly... but that's still largely their fault. Worse yet, we've seen that Kinzo can be doting or kind. So he knows how to be affectionate and loving. He either learned that lesson far too late or was always capable of it and refused to offer it to his main family.
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2014-03-10, 12:31
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Link #34083 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 39
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Quote:
His children reminded him of the things he hated about his life and they chained him to his position (like in Rosa's case), they also didn't follow the path he had laid for them so he tried to pummel them into shape (like Eva did with George)...while all those are faults that he could have mended in one way or the other, he too was trapped by circumstance and refused to seek help. In a way he is a pretty sad example of a human being and apart from the terrible thing he did to Beatrice II, which is the one inexcusable thing he did (as well as he might have meant), he was a tragic result of his time and environment. |
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2014-03-10, 18:40
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Link #34084 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Regarding how Kinzo's wife found out Kinzo has a blonde lover:
Well, I speculate about a blond hair being found but maybe Kinzo talked in his sleep or did some comment about how the only woman he loved was blonde (referring to Bice as maybe Beatrice II was too young back then but Kinzo's wife couldn't know he was going to see a child and assumed she was a lover) or some servant that had also served at Kuwadorian tried to tattle him out and was fired before she could explain where Kuwadorian was. Regarding Kanon: I really hope the manga will tell us more about Kanon, maybe this time the goats will fight about him more? Honestly I was also thinking he didn't exist on Rokkenjima (it would make a lot more sense), but then he showed up in Battler/Tohya's memories in the VN and in the manga and this seems to suggest he existed at least on those 2 days... so I'm waiting for manga clarification. Regarding theories about Genji not supported by canon: starting from the nice ones: Genji actually is doing all this for Kinzo, so as to subtly help him to learn to be a father for Lion without being distracted by the idea Lion is Beatrice. Genji actually is doing all this for Kinzo, so if Lion is really Beatrice's reincarnation and their love is fated and yadda yadda, this time they'll have a chance to fall in love again without the complication of thinking they're father and son. Or not, as Kinzo might realize Lion isn't Beatrice's reincarnation now that there are no apparent ties between him and Beatrice and let him be. Genji was actually in love with Beatrice II. She didn't know though but he wants to keep close what remains of her. After Kinzo took advantage of Beatrice, Genji conforted her and became her lover. Lion might either be his or Kinzo's child. Therefore Genji wants to keep him close but wants him to inherit Kinzo's fortune. Genji is loyal to Kinzo but not to his children so he has no problems to have Lion take the inheritance from them. He thinks he can persuade Kinzo to leave a last minute will that will make Lion as the sole heir and then, by controlling Lion who sees him as a father figure, he'll control the money. Genji actually resent Kinzo for saving his life and yet condemning him to a life in which he has lost his family, is a servant and will have to live to repay him due to the obligation he has with him so, in revenge, he did the same to Kinzo's son. Saved him and forced him to live as a servant without his family around to make him understand the pain he put him through. Genji in truth loved Kinzo and was jealous of Beatrice so by condemning her child to that life he tried to get revenge on her. However, as he loved Kinzo, he told himself he did it for Kinzo and Yasu's benefit and not for his own sense of revenge and that he was even giving Kinzo a chance to recognize his son. As Yasu grew though, he unwillingly grew fond of him as Yasu wasn't just Beatrice's son but also Kinzo's son. I could go on but I'll stop here. As you can see I've moved from a Genji who cared about Kinzo, to a Genji who was emotionally involved with Beatrice, to a greedy Genji to a vengeful Genji. As Umineko stresses that Genji truly cared and was loyal to Kinzo and that's the only point we more or less have about him 'vengeful Genji' might seem weak but even Yasu loved Battler and yet she believed she'd been wronged by him and forced him into a twisted game so... well, nothing. Umineko doesn't really tell us much on Genji so that even the canon explanation seems poor and that's the CANON explanation so I don't expect one of those theories to replace it as they too have probably weakness here and there because... well, they aren't the intended solution. *sigh* I really wanted more focus on Genji in Ep 7 but Ep 7 follows rather faithfully the VN so far so there's not much to work with it for now. About Kinzo and how he really was: An interesting thing I noticed is that apart from the screaming of 'Beatrice' the portraial of Kinzo in the fantasy scenes changes according to who 'witnesses them'. The Kinzo Krauss ear is quite horrible and violent but the Kinzo that interacts with Nanjo or Genji or Kanon is not so bad. I'll skip Natsuhi's Kinzo from Ep 1-4 as that one is likely her own dream and not real Kinzo, and move to the Kinzo she remembered handed her the baby, who was cold, abrupt and saw the baby as 'Beatrice' as he lamented she left him again. Battler's Kinzo in Ep 5 is also not so bad but Battler's perception is often biased as he tends to see the best in people so he might remember a kind grandad when actually Kinzo was a jerk with him too. George's description of Kinzo is of a strict yet fair man. All in all... it's hard to get an idea of how the true Kinzo was. I'll say it's possible in his old age he might have had good and bad moments but be much better than what he was with his children... but we'll never get a clear picture of him. Him being better doesn't really mean he wasn't bad, just that he was better. Maybe the most realistic portray is Ep 7? About Kinzo and his family: I fear Kinzo cared little for his family but we can't be sure he didn't try to fix things. Maybe in the end he wrote a will that split the inheritance fairily but as he was never declared dead said will never came to light. Or maybe that will involved Lion and as Yasu didn't want anyone to know about her, she hid it instead than using it to claim her share. But the real problem is probably that Kinzo cares about Lion much more than he does to Krauss. He doesn't want to pass just the gold to Lion but also the title of head and it's unlikely the siblings would accept this. So maybe Kinzo could never fix things with his children because basically to him they meant less than Lion and whatever he was going to do, would end up delivering this point home. After a life of abuse they wouldn't accept a stranger to come and get the gold and the headship. About Kinzo and love: To be fair people can have someone they love dearly and someone else with whom they're horrible with. Honestly I see Kinzo as pretty selfish so I think Kinzo's love was selfish as well but this doesn't mean he didn't care about Beatrice... only that his caring wasn't so pure. |
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2014-03-11, 08:56
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Link #34085 | ||||
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Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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On that note, in EP8 there is a scene where Ange looks back on Rokenjima and its people and when she speaks about the 'kind servants' the background shows Kumasawa and Kanon again. Did she perhaps meet a male Yasu? Because everything seems to suggest that Yasu was regarded as a female. On the other hand, Ange might also be biased from the fictions. She was six years old, so how much can she remember about the servants when she can't even recall anything about her own grandfather? Quote:
What if the serial murders are all Genji's plan to take revenge on the Ushiromiya family who's been treating him like crap for all his life, and he uses Yasu to accomplish it? And perhaps Yasu is writing the forgeries to place all the blame on herself and cover for Genji, whom she respects as a father*cacklecacklecacklecackle* Quote:
Okay, Kinzo may not be the best example. Trying to argue that he was good deep inside is certainly going to raise quite a few uncomfortable subjects. Quote:
Yasu and Battler were a very good parallel. There's no question that she loves him, but she is also very possesive and gets upset when she sees she's not the only thing that matters to him, like he is to her. Kinzo is the same. Regardless of what his actions may be, that doesn't deny his feelings were true.
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2014-03-11, 09:22
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Link #34086 |
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BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Kinzo could be a bad man by nature who was capable of occasional acts of goodness, though. "Not everything is black and white" doesn't necessarily imply "everyone should be seen as good" or even "everyone is naturally good." Kinzo was probably an asshole to most of the people he knew, a conniving and ruthless businessman, apparently not a good father, and most likely a rapist (of his own child!). On balance, he's a bad person on the weight of evidence.
It's just, you know, maybe now and then he could be nice, or loving, and maybe he could even be remorseful. My issue is not whether he was or wasn't capable of regretting what he did (anyone can be), but whether his final thoughts and acts are indicative of actual remorse or just being selfishly upset over something he liked. Kinzo might've begged for forgiveness, but did he actually earn it?
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2014-03-11, 12:37
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Link #34087 | ||
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Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Quote:
It would probably make a lot more sense if I phrased it like this: In an early point of EP8, Ange and Battler argue about the portrayal of Kinzo in the last game. Ange argues that he was a tyrant, a despotic and short-tempered person and a loner. Battler, on the other hand suggests that he was a loving grandpa who doted on his grandchildren. And both of them may be right. There's more than one side to Ushiromiya Kinzo (but probably both of them see him from a too one-sided scope). It does not mean that his one side eliminates the other. Although, this is the very reason I said that Kinzo is a bad example, well, no he isn't a good person, because his actions clearly say the opposite about him. Quote:
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2014-03-12, 14:53
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Link #34088 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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About Ange:
Well, it's not like she didn't remember Kinzo at all, it's just that something she remembered of Kinzo and that she might have misunderstood but that left in her a strong impression, ended up shaping his opinion of him. I know of a child of 3 who's deadly scared of a woman because he heard her using a whistle once and the sound scared him. As of now he cries each time he sees her even if, after she's not using it anymore. Until he'll manage to overcome his fear of her in connection to whistles for that child that woman is going to be a Scary Person and that's all. It doesn't matter that she goes to him, shows him she has no whistle with her and tries to speak to him gently. Until he doesn't get over it he's scared. Ange was 4 the last time she saw Kinzo and her parents were used to put pressure on her, insisting for her to be polite and so on and when she saw him yelling to them and scaring them she must have felt very scared as well. Kinzo might have been sweet to her and even apologize for having scared her if he'd realized what had happened but probably she wouldn't have listened as she was simply to scared. About Genji: Yes, your theory too is a possibility, of course. Honestly I didn't want to try and make a Genji is also the culprit in Prime theory because it's implied it should be someone else but a schemer Genji who was involved in the tragedy could work. About Kinzo: I don't think anyone sees Kinzo as a fundamentally good person, although evil people can be nice to people they like/love and not just indiscriminately evil to everyone. Kinzo though... is pretty bad with his immediate family and he's ruthless beyond necessary with his rivals in business. Maybe he was kind with Genji as he saved him, but he never helped him rebuild his life as he was and just kept him close to live to pay back his debt to him... though of course it seems Genji agreed to this so it can even be that Kinzo gave him a chance and Genji refused. Generally I'll say that giving forgiveness is a decision of who had been wronged and that the requisites to earn it vary from people to people. For example, let's assume Maria were to survive. To her no matter what Ange would later do for apologizing, it can be to her Ange will never earn her forgiveness because the pain she felt was so big and lead her to make such huge mistakes Ange will never compensate for it. On the opposite even if Beato basically tortured Battler for 4 games he understood her and forgave her and Beato didn't really had to do much to earn his forgiveness. In Kinzo's case though the person from whom he wants to be forgiven is Beatrice, who's dead so she's not around anymore to judge if he has repented enough. He tries to be forgiven through Yasu, which is low as Yasu doesn't even know what he did when he says 'uh, okay...' and thinks he can fix everything by returning what he took from Beatrice which isn't what Yasu wanted in the first place and doesn't compensate at all for Yasu's suffering. Sure, Kinzo suffered but it really would depend on Beatrice, or at best on an informed Yasu, to decide if he has suffered enough. If I were in Yasu's place I wouldn't be satisfied because his suffering seems... pretty selfish. He cries and cries but... he does nothing that can be seen as an act to redeem himself from what he did to Beatrice or for the situation he put Yasu into (unless the Fukuin house was founded after he thought Lion died?). And of course he's not even considering he needs forgiveness for the way he ruined his children. He's not apologizing to them, though he asks where he did wrong with them to Genji it's more of a retorical question and even in Ep 7 he shows little care for them, proposing them a riddle he thought them too dumb to solve and trying to force on them Lion as a leader without even explaining things to them so to them he's just an orphan Kinzo favours to his own children. Kinzo's caring attitude toward his children in Ep 8 honestly feels more like wishful thinking than something Kinzo might have felt in life even if maybe he didn't actively hated or despised them, it was more he cared little for them and might have liked more his grandchildren as he might have played with the idea they would have been Lion's playmates. |
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2014-03-13, 09:19
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Link #34089 |
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BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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I'm sure Kinzo is well aware that "Beatrice" (whether that's Bice, his daughter Beatrice, or essentially both) cannot forgive him, but I think that's the reason it's possible to question and judge his seeking of forgiveness as critically as one can.
As you said, did he want to do right by Lion? It's hard to say. On the one hand you could look at his intention of introducing Lion into the family as an attempt to reconcile the two sides of his family. On the other hand, he forces Lion onto Natsuhi - who is already under a lot of stress - with minimal explanation. And in Lion's world (which, admittedly, is arguably Yasu's fantasy) he's essentially favoring Lion in such an extreme way that it's more like Lion has been slipped in to replace his real family by getting the best of everything. Even if Natsuhi had accepted the child, she'd still have the burden of knowing her entire life that she's living a lie. Now it seems Natsuhi and Lion would've had a wonderful relationship - or, again, Yasu believes so, and there's reason to think Natsuhi would've probably been so - but that's a terribly unfair thing to force onto her if you're Kinzo and don't know what the eventual outcome will be. Of course, the actual outcome appears to have been far worse than even that. Did his actions with respect to Yasu really constitute an attempt to repay her? It's a weird situation there as Yasu appears to have not known any of that stuff until pretty much the last minute. It certainly casts the whole thing as being more for Kinzo's benefit than hers. Now, there is the whole headship and gold, but that seems to just cause Yasu problems, and she even seems to think as much, because she (wisely, I think) decides to hide it. She's pretty much right about all the problems this arrangement and Kinzo's death cause. It doesn't help her with what she really wanted, which wasn't so much a knowledge of her past as understanding and acceptance. If anything the knowledge without the understanding just causes her more pain. So I think it turns on how clearly representative of reality the Kinzo-Kanon scenes and relationship are, and how much of that actually happened. It's a very odd inclusion, and it seems to speak to the possibility that Yasu, masquerading as Kanon, made Kinzo suspect something. But did she ever actually present herself as Kanon to Kinzo at any point? The math doesn't seem to work out right. Even if she had, how long did they have this relationship? Was it true, was it accurate? Or is this, again, just a sort of fantastical yearning for a parental relationship that Yasu was never allowed to have? If Kinzo had caught on sooner, would he have mended his ways and tried to be a real father figure? Since we don't really know what steps Kinzo was even able to take it's hard to know if he was genuine in taking them. But certainly his method is open to criticism at least with respect to the entire epitaph thing and his decision to leave everything to Yasu. And Bern seems to think that even in the best of cases Kinzo is effectively sowing the seed of disaster for his family. Although, admittedly, Will did disagree with that, but I'm still not sure if he disagreed with it on fact (that a "Lion Fragment" doesn't have to end in tragedy just because it's got the characters of Rokkenjima stories in it) or on principle (that a "Lion Fragment" is created as a happy fantasy, so get your downer facts out of here you jerk).
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2014-03-13, 19:32
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Link #34090 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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About Kinzo and forgiveness:
As I see it, since Beatrice was dead and couldn't forgive him, it is very likely Kinzo planned to become his own judge in how much he had repented, by giving Lion what he thought would be enough to make himself be forgiven. Personally if that was the case there's the huge risk the atonement would become close to an act of self sactisfaction. I'm not sure how to put this well in English but what I mean is mostly that he would do what HE deemed okay to do and not more and if he hadn't guessed it right but he felt he'd done enough... well, he'll be forgiven for him even if he doesn't really deserve it. Sure, Lion's happiness can help him judge things but... well, we'll never know. Lion seemed to be happy of being the future head, of being stuck in the role of keeping company to Kinzo and didn't question why he was made head or which were the others' feelings about it but Lion is Yasu's fantasy built on her needs, not on herself. She assumed if she were to be accepted than she wouldn't need everything else and be happy. Actually it could enterely be that if she had grown up as Lion just being accepted wouldn't have been enough, that like Jessica she would develop different ambitions, that she wouldn't be manage to fulfil expectations, or that those expectations would pressure her the way they did with George, making her poor at relating with other people. As Lion disappeared I had the feeling Kinzo had suspicions Genji was hiding him something and his act of atonement was all to persuade Genji he was sorry enough. After all why to make the epitaph, hoping Beatrice/Lion would solve it when Lion is supposedly dead and an important bit of the solution is that Kinzo is from Taiwan, a thing not even his grandchildren knew and that therefore Lion couldn't know without help? As Bern's say her miracles are actually things with extremely low probabilities to happen but that must still have at least a possibility to happen. Kinzo believed there was the possibility that Lion was alive and Genji was hiding him. This might have pushed him to act in a certain way so as to get Genji to forgive him so... we'll never know if his actions were also an act. Genji, who knew him the best, basically decided to 'forgive him' only when he was about to die so... maybe it was more out of pity and of fear that maybe he was being too severe than out of a real belief Kinzo was sorry enough. But we can't really know Kinzo's heart so I fear for us judging will be even harder than for Genji. Maybe Kinzo is really sorry but has no the single idea how to show atonement as nobody had even said sorry to him? Maybe he's just too prideful like Natsuhi? Maybe he blames his family also for what happened to Lion so he atones by... being a jerk to them? It's hard to say. Personally I think the thing Kinzo was sorriest the most was that things didn't go his way. I'm sure he was honestly desperate about it. Sort of like when he cried about how his children aren't the way he wanted them to be. And always personally, I wouldn't forgive him if I were in Beatrice or Lion. Maybe his sadness and his wish to atone are sincere but they look too selfish for my taste. But well, if they loved him they might be blind to this. Or know him better than me. I don't know but I don't really feel like being gentle with him as Will was. About Kinzo and Kanon: The story seems to push all the nice interactions between Kinzo and Yasu on Kanon... so I wonder if she really dressed up as Kanon in front of him or she merely pushed them on Kanon on the idea he was being nice with her in the hope she was in truth his male child and therefore having Kanon being with Kinzo instead than Shannon would make more sense in Yasu's mind. Personally I think if Yasu wanted Kanon to show around she needed too many accomplices and this would require her to be the head and therefore Kinzo to be dead... unless it was Kinzo who asked her to crossdress in the first place. |
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2014-03-14, 01:41
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Link #34091 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
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The thing about Kinzo is, for me, he's the hardest one to make the 'Good Mama' and the 'Bad Witch' fit together into 'All One Mama'.
Some characters it's not hard at all. Rosa loves Maria, but hates the burdens and responsibilities of single parenting and all that it entails piles up into.... the bipolar mess that is the BEST MOM EVER. Eva and George have this thing where they're smart, capable, know it, fiercely protective of those they care about... and also fiercely controlling in making sure those they care about follow the best choices for them as THEY see it. Good Kinzo and Bad Kinzo, though.... The things that stood out to me most about Bice in 'Good Kinzo's narration of getting the gold is that he like her sense of humor, her kindness, and her strong independent spirit in not quite becoming a total damsel in distress. I mean he honors her with the most brain-crackingly hard riddle he can think of, and that epitaph was no pushover of riddles. It took a huge amount of work to create. Bad Kinzo is all 'Eva get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich'. Good Kinzo is all 'I love my family, if only Ange would smile again. Bear the eagle on your heart with pride, Natsuhi! Don't listen to the haters and keep your head held high!' Bad Kinzo treats every single relative like shit, and is the feared tyrant and patriarch of the Ushiromiya family. He feeds Krauss's complex, considers Eva a failure and generally bemoans that the gods have cursed him with such worthless and incompetent offspring, on the rare occasion he even looks at them. Bad Kinzo is all 'I'm going to have my way with my reincarnated lover now, sexy times ensue!' leading to good Kinzo 'OMG WHAT HAVE I DONE TO MY CHILD! I REPENT I REPENT BUT OH MAN GENJI IS KEEPING THE NEXT KID THE HELL AWAY FROM ME! FOR THE CHILD'S OWN GOOD!' And then there's the fact that this guy set up a mass-suicide bomb capable of killing himself and his whole family. It's just all over the place to the point that I think there's some big twist(s) and reveal(s) that never got put in the text either as deliberate artistic choice or because it was rushed. |
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2014-03-15, 15:41
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Link #34092 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Well, I mean.
"Good Kinzo", for all intents and purposes, isn't real. The best we see of Kinzo is young!Kinzo in EP7, where he was barely middle aged, yet, and hadn't enterred what literally everyone else n the story very politely avoids calling "The Asshole Era". The only other time we see him being at all congenial outside of blatant lies (Natsuhi's delusions, and Battler's over-saccharine final gameboard) are the EP3 flashbacks with Kuwadoritrice, and we all know how that ended. Battler does raise a legitimate point to Ange, that it's very possible her memory just isn't as reliable as she thinks, having been so young (Ange would have last seen Kinzo, herself, when she was just FOUR years old), but it's very likely that he raises that point to give his illusions the appearance of possible legitimacy. He plays a devil's proof about a dead person's private behavior ; it's practically the same as Sakutarou claiming that the spell for putting candy into a cup might have been real magic when Maria saw it performed, in EP6. Which is to say "technically I can't really argue against that, but, ehhhhHHHHHHHH, come ON." |
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2014-03-15, 18:12
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Link #34093 |
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The True Culprit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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But that's the thing, NONE of Kinzo is real. No depictions of Kinzo that we see in Umineko are actually realistic in every verifiable sense. It's either character's delusions, fictions after he's deceased, memories through extremely questionable and biased perspectives, or shenanigans involving fused kakeras and impossible hypothetical worlds.
This extends to most of the characters, but Kinzo has it the worst; We don't actually know anything about the character, and can only go on the fictional portrayal of him that the Witch Hunters have popularized in their canon, but unlike the other characters, Kinzo isn't even portrayed consistently in the message bottles and forgeries. Whether Kinzo is a good man or a bad man, we may never know, and can never judge him or exonerate him. We cannot condemn him, forgive him, or...understand him. It is a cruel irony that Yasu, who craved understanding more than anything else in her life, created a situation where she and the others that died with her can never be understood by anyone; only pale shadows of them left in the ink. That's the greatest and truest tragedy of the truth being lost that day, and that's why it's not forgiveable.
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2014-03-15, 20:36
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Link #34094 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 39
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Quote:
Had it not been for the message bottles, people would have written it off as people they don't know experiencing things they can't understand. But the message bottles gave an air of authenticity, of realness, and that's why they seduced people into believing that they'd know anything about these people. Here, I read about Ushiromiya Rosa, so it's practically as if I knew her. Yet, that was never Yasu's intention. She wanted to reach somebody who already DID know these people and not characters. It's like your personal diary falling into the hands of one of your friends and him or her believing they'd suddenly know everything about you. |
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2014-03-15, 22:13
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Link #34095 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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I finished Umineko over two years ago (with the Witch Hunt's translation). One year ago, I drafted a post I intended for this thread, but for various reasons I never ended up posting it. Today, I'd like to finally post it, with the hope that I'll finally be able to put my feelings toward Umineko to rest.
In advance, I'd like to be clear: I have no real ability to defend my points, but I'd still really appreciate comments: I'm part of the unpopular minority who is not convinced that Beatrice is the culprit. I want to talk about it, so I'll break it up into sections. These are my most solid "suspicions": - Yasu = Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice (they share the same body/could be considered multiple personalities). - Yasu knows who the culprit is, and Yasu is involved in the culprit's conspiracy. - BUT, Yasu does not set the murders into motion, nor does s/he directly commit them--i.e. is not the culprit by a murder mystery definition, though it's likely that his/her level of cooperation would make him/her appear guilty in the eyes of readers. - The culprit or group of culprits includes George and very probably Hideyoshi. - At the beginning of the retreat, the culprit probably has not solved the riddle and does not know about the gold. The person who solves the riddle and discovers the gold ends up meeting Beatrice and being able to quiz her about the island's secrets (as shown in Episode 7), which is an action she takes independent of the culprit's plan. That person may then end up "competing" with the culprit due to the corrupting influence of the gold. These are more speculatory points: - The culprit (again, according to my hypothesis, that's George and possibly Hideyoshi) intended to kill everyone in a way that leaves no evidence such that the inheritance would go to them. - George took advantage of Yasu and her deep knowledge of murder mysteries and of the island's secrets. - Battler returning to the island had the potential to affect George's plans because Yasu still had feelings for him. What I can't speculate "well" on: - George's motivation. But I suspect he doesn't need one, and that his personality led him to the path he took. Compare to: Spoiler for Major spoiler for Higurashi:
- Eva's role. I suspect Episode 3 is a major hint if interpreted in the right light, e.g. Eva's actions make sense if she is conflicted about the fact that George and possibly Hideyoshi are murdering her siblings, nieces, and nephew. What parts of the story "stuck out" and drew me to attempt to find a hypothesis that addresses them: - Eva's (and perhaps Hideyoshi's) well-known hope that George would become the next head and gain the inheritance is the reason that I added "such that the inheritance would go to them" as part of the culprit's motive. If I'm right about the culprit, then that motive seems highly plausible. - Beatrice's lifeless behavior in the Episode 7 tea party. She did not look like someone with any reason to kill everyone. Admittedly a minor oddity. - The meta-narrative's hint that it's wrong to think of Beatrice as the culprit when all she's doing is showing Battle various versions of the serial killings. To me, it doesn't make sense to try to characterize Battler's rage toward Beatrice as unjustified unless Ryuukishi is hinting that Beatrice is merely showing Battler what happened and she is not the culprit and behaves in a way that seems to indicate utter lack of malice (and certainly, in Episode 7's tea party, only others murdered anyone). - Everything about Shannon's relationship with George, even beyond the obvious questions you have to ask when you consider Shannon's true identity. Episode 4 was the big hint, as it highlighted George's personality in a way that showed him to be ruthless, willing to make everyone his enemy, and willing to kill his mother without hesitation. Shannon's dialogue with George is all about him becoming his own man and taking her away from the island--things I can imagine him saying to her as he convinces her to cooperate in his plan to take the inheritance using her murder mystery plans. - George's line about being jealous of Battler in the past and when Battler almost fondled her breasts stuck me as the type of line that screams foreshadowing. I think that it may be hinting that George's jealousy was a factor in the actual (non-narrative) conversation along with being a factor in the overall mystery. - Ryuukishi's attitude toward the reader. I believe that people have discussed this before, so I'll just quickly reference the various lengths to which he goes. 1) Repeatedly emphasizing that what's important is not using the red truth, but understanding the message of the meta-narrative (i.e. symbolism and foreshadowing, such as the fact that Battler made that "promise" to Shannon). 2) Episode 8 and the insane lengths to which it goes to characterize readers/"goats" as having no love and heartlessly accusing people of murder without trying to empathize or see the good in them--my impression is that this applies most to Beatrice herself, as someone who has no serious established motive other than the standing assumption that "she's just crazy" which is a perfect example of not empathizing a.k.a. being a "goat". Ryuukishi wasn't sure whether he would even make Episode 8, and then his Episode 8 ended up being all about teaching the reader/Ange about how to see things with love--I strongly suspect that the part of Episode 8 where Battler sinks into the ocean with Beatrice is the only part that matches Ryuukishi's original vision of Episode 8 that he scrapped after judging the readers unsuited for the truth. - That's mostly it. The rest is just plain inference; if George is the culprit and he's working using Beatrice's blueprints yet committing the crimes himself, then the rest falls into place. - For the record, I included Hideyoshi as a possible culprit because according to a friend of mine, Episode 3 would not make sense without Hideyoshi committing some of the murders, and I have no reason to not suppose that Hideyoshi and George could have worked together. In the end, keep in mind that this is only a hypothesis, not a theory or even a debateworthy argument. It's certainly not testable, but it's not even rigorous and doesn't connect everything in the story well or clearly. But then, I don't believe it's possible to have such a complete and satisfactory theory, given all the blanks Ryuukishi that never filled in. However, hypotheses can be countered (and they're typically modified in response, rather than just totally discredited), so I invite anyone who sees an inconsistency in my hypothesis to voice it. Also keep in mind that I'm not an expert in the red truth, so if you have a lengthy argument for why only an "extra" person (Beatrice) could have directly committed a murder, I'm not going to be qualified to respond. I'm posting here while being aware there are many people who have studied the red truth in detail and come to many different conclusions. |
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2014-03-16, 03:55
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The True Culprit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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It doesn't really require malicious collusion on Hideyoshi's part per se, and EP3 is generally regarded as having been an "off-the-rails" Gameboard by most people. Anyway, I don't have a whole lot to criticize, per se. Idon't see anything you're objectively wrong about, and you and I seem to be on a similar wavelength. Do my comments garner any sort of interesting response? It's nice to read your input, by the way. Thanks for finally sharing it.
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2014-03-16, 06:48
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Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Although, there sort of is a red truth indictating to Yasu directly commiting murder. Evatrice's checkmate in EP3 about Nanjo's murder does point to that direction, but then again many people engage in personality death except Yasu (Battler and Ange), so it could also work if you call it 'the Black George' or something. Quote:
After Ange reads the Single Truth she has that dialogue with Battler where they say 'See? The truth wasn't anything important' 'Yeah, I didn't need to know that'. They wouldn't say that if their parents were the ones who killed everybody. And also, I think it would be at least stupid on Ryukishi's part to show a detailed scenario that is this close to the truth (such as Kyrie and Rudolf murdering everyone, regardless of certain well.... holes that had) and then making all this fuss about the Single Truth in EP8. I mean, what's the point? Did he just change his mind about revealing the truth and made a clumsy attempt to take it back after having already shown it?
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2014-03-16, 09:34
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Link #34098 | ||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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I do acknowledge, and you're right, that Kinzo has it measurably worse, because he's consistently described as not just kind of an asshole, but very fickle and a bit of a troll, and he is devoted to the idea of Beatrice, to boot, so the fantasy narrative has much more room to have a "wouldn't put it past dad" field day. But we're seeing everybody through a fictional lens, similarly. I just don't think Ryu took the full step of ever suggesting that the fictional lens was far off the mark from reality. Quote:
FWIW, Ryu has made a tried and true strategy of laying his cards on the table very openly, to basically make you think "it's too obvious to be correct!". When it comes to Kyrolf culprit theory, he does this by giving Kyrie the most OOC motive logic we've ever seen from her, combined with it being presented by Bernkastel, who by that point we all know for sure is vindictive and bitchy and just kinda enjoys hurting people's feelings for shiggles. |
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2014-03-16, 10:39
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Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
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2014-03-16, 12:07
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
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 We know that Bern puts forward the idea that Kinzo had his way with her, but that's hardly certain. No, Will doesn't argue back so much as argue for forgiveness, but the only evidence given for this scenario is Bernkastel being a bitch and suggesting the possibility. On the flip side: 1: Rosa's narration never gives any hint of Kuwadorian Beatrice showing signs of recent pregnancy, nor any crying baby, nor anyone else at the guest house who might have been caring for the child. It's really hard for me to buy a new mother just leaving the kid behind when they run away, or her being so stupid as to not understand what's going on through an entire pregnancy. 2: Genji felt that having the child raised as a servant in the main house was sufficient protection against a 'repeat performance' of Kinzo's sin. If it really was an incest lovers or rape kind of thing, that is woefully inadequate and everyone knows it. If he's worried about Kinzo getting alone time and seducing the kid, then having him in the Ushiromiya mansion at all is a bad idea. This is also compoletely unnecessary if Yasu was born male and Kinzo knows it (which he would kind of have to in order to be giving the kid to Natsuhi.) 3: I just struggle with the idea of people like Nanjo and Kumasawa (and to a lesser extent Genji) knowing about that sort of violation and still being good friends with Kinzo. Genji might be driven by loyalty, but Kumasawa not smuggling them out? principled Nanjo that wouldn't take a bribe not having serious issues? It just doesn't mesh... |
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