Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by monster

Would it harm you in any way to let someone form their own opinion?

No it wouldn't. Like I said in my previous post, it's just a warning (based on my personal experience).

[monster]

Originally Posted by Haak

But ultimately Orb got it's way in the end, and that kind of result only empowers a nation, not make it think it's ideals need to be reversed.

That's only because the first war ended the way it did. Things could have ended differently. The fact of the matter is that Orb was temporarily annexed by the Atlantic Federation. Do you really think that the Orb government wants to risk that again over keeping at least some pretense of sovereignty as an independent nation?

[Haak]

But it was ultimately only temporary and that's just as much a fact. In the end Orb soldiers fought in the final battle and played a part in securing their nation again. And that's not enough to suddenly make the people doubt sovereignty, rights and the ideals they lost lives for. If anything it should make them more stubborn.

[monster]

Well, the Orb government doesn't see it that way. They're just not going to risk a second chance.

You may disagree with that decision, but surely you can see the reasoning behind it.

[Mad Pierrot]

Orb had three choices, join the Earth Alliance and be destroyed by ZAFT, join ZAFT and be destroyed by the Earth Alliance, or stay neutral and get destroyed by the Earth Alliance since they would think that if Orb did not join them against the enemies of humanity then they are allied with the enemies (PLANT). They were ruined from the get go or even before SEED since by producing EA's mobile suits they made enemies.

Originally Posted by Kirayuki

Yeah, the early part of Destiny doesn't suffer much from this yet because there are things off-battle that keep your interest.

No wonder 00, Code Geass and all of Sunrise's series started taking breaks after every 25 episodes. This is even more obvious when the fourth opening barely had new footage.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by monster

Well, the Orb government doesn't see it that way. They're just not going to risk a second chance.

You may disagree with that decision, but surely you can see the reasoning behind it.

Perhaps I was using the wrong words when I said it was nonsensical. It does make sense on it's own but the problem is that there's a whole other host of factors that aren't being taken into account, such as public perception and what the general perception of the sacrifices they made was. It just doesn't make sense to me that a country could so easily reverse it's position after making so many sacrifices for it. Making a country suffer for it's ideals rarely ever has the effect of making the country drop said ideals. Imo, it's the opposite that usually happens. People hold those ideals even harder and focus blame to the outside threat. The whole thing just feels too forced. I can see the reasoning behind it but not to point where there'd be virtually no challenge and dissent.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Haak

Perhaps I was using the wrong words when I said it was nonsensical. It does make sense on it's own but the problem is that there's a whole other host of factors that aren't being taken into account, such as public perception and what the general perception of the sacrifices they made was. It just doesn't make sense to me that a country could so easily reverse it's position after making so many sacrifices for it. Making a country suffer for it's ideals rarely ever has the effect of making the country drop said ideals. Imo, it's the opposite that usually happens. People hold those ideals even harder and focus blame to the outside threat. The whole thing just feels too forced. I can see the reasoning behind it but not to point where there'd be virtually no challenge and dissent.

I agree with you Haak. I myself already had a long argument with monster about this a while ago (don't want to repeat it again). The thing is, like you said, the scriptwriter didn’t give enough details regarding ORB’s politics for us to know for sure, or it’s simply a bad/lazy writing. I tend to go with the latter. The way ORB doing things in Destiny is like USA abandoning democracy just to survive from the oppression of a more powerful country.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Haak

Perhaps I was using the wrong words when I said it was nonsensical. It does make sense on it's own but the problem is that there's a whole other host of factors that aren't being taken into account, such as public perception and what the general perception of the sacrifices they made was. It just doesn't make sense to me that a country could so easily reverse it's position after making so many sacrifices for it. Making a country suffer for it's ideals rarely ever has the effect of making the country drop said ideals. Imo, it's the opposite that usually happens. People hold those ideals even harder and focus blame to the outside threat. The whole thing just feels too forced. I can see the reasoning behind it but not to point where there'd be virtually no challenge and dissent.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

The way ORB doing things in Destiny is like USA abandoning democracy just to survive from the oppression of a more powerful country.

Maybe this is where our differences lie. While the show labels it as ideals, it's really more of a foreign policy. This is in no way similar to the USA abandoning democracy.

If it was really highly regarded as democracy is in the USA, Athha wouldn't have surrendered Orb in the first place. He would've destroyed the mass driver but kept fighting.

[Haak]

Well I thought the idea of sending the rest of the soldiers into space was so that they could live to keep on fighting another day. It was enough for the politicians to commit mass suicide in any case.

Anyway...

Episode 19

Well that was a little bizarre...

But I suppose if that's the most effect the fake Lacus Clyne will have then that's fine. Just so long as she isn't calming the mass like she did last time. That was a little ridiculous.

The Chairman's speech about the military-industrial complex was nice though he really is starting to look perfect now so I hope that he really did try to assassinate the real Lacus Clyne and I hope the show does reveal more bad sides to him.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by Haak

All of this is obvious except for the last sentence. I still don't see how it benefits either party, politically, unless there's some weird tribal structure going on in this political system.



Cagalli is willing to permanently sacrifice her own happiness and supposedly empower the very hawkish people she needs to stand up against for what is essentially a temporary distraction for the people? That honestly just seems way beyond idiotic to me. This is apparently a decision she's agonised over. If that's what she's become then this story has well and truly screwed her over big time.

Anyway I'm now 16 episodes in and I'm still overall enjoying it. The most recent interesting scene is Shinn acting against orders to attack a base and save oppressed people, and Athrun reprimanding him for it. It's easy to see both sides' perspective here. Shinn had just seen the destruction of allies and saw what was an easy target for a tit for tat response: not only would he be destroying the enemy responsible but also save oppressed civilians. But ZAFT only have orders aggressive self defence so going as far as to kill soldiers who can't fight back and destroy a base is easily the kind of renegade action that can escalate conflicts beyond hope, regardless of how right it seemed at the time. I'm liking the way Athrun and Shinn's characters play off each other. There's still a lot more potential between the two. (EDIT: And Episode 17 proved very fruitful)

The pacing is still as annoying as ever though. Overuse of flashbacks and stock scenes like transformations and launching can really kill my engagement, just like it did last season. Though I'm not yet at the point where every battle scene starts to look the same.

Cagalli is still just a girl, she has very little experience in this matter. She doesn't know Yuna is manipulating her since Yuna was told to make it look like he did care for ORB and Cagalli even though he only saw both as a means to an end. It also makes sense that the marriage was arranged because Yuna's family is very well known and popular in ORB, they also had a lot of pull as shown in Destiny where nearly all of Politicians were aligned with Yuna and his more experienced family than Cagalli.

Had Cagalli been older and more experienced than she wouldn't have been so easy to manipulate or wouldn't have questioned herself so much. That and the people and politicians would have more faith in her rule and would have supported her more over Yuna's party. Another thing to remember is that all the stress of ruling was piling up and Cagalli who just wanted it all to end or for the load to lighten up. Yuna promised that he would take care of everything after their marriage which is very tempting to anyone that is desperately looking for a way out or anyone to support them when they're all alone.

Cagalli was never meant to rule ORB at such a young age, her Father hadn't planned on dying so soon, hence why he seemed content letting Cagalli rebel a bit before breaking her back into reality and getting her ready for her roll. Only that time never game due to what happened in SEED.

Yes, Destiny suffers a lot from Flashbacks. You have to remember it was rushed out the door in a very short time frame to capitalize on SEED fame. Hence why the early episodes are actually quite good but than it takes a dip as time draws on. Hopefully the SEED Destiny HD Remaster will help take off some of that excessive flashback use. They also have material from the SEED Destiny movies/specials that they could pull as well. Helps those are mostly about Athrun so they could be fit nearly anywhere.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Haak

Well I thought the idea of sending the rest of the soldiers into space was so that they could live to keep on fighting another day. It was enough for the politicians to commit mass suicide in any case.

Ideally, yes. But in practice, sending your soldiers and weapons away and killing your leaders while your nation is under attack still results in surrendering the nation itself, which goes against one of Orb's "ideals" in itself.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Cagalli is still just a girl, she has very little experience in this matter. She doesn't know Yuna is manipulating her since Yuna was told to make it look like he did care for ORB and Cagalli even though he only saw both as a means to an end. It also makes sense that the marriage was arranged because Yuna's family is very well known and popular in ORB, they also had a lot of pull as shown in Destiny where nearly all of Politicians were aligned with Yuna and his more experienced family than Cagalli.

She knew she was being manipulated, but decided to go ahead with the wedding anyways. did you watch the show?

Had Cagalli been older and more experienced than she wouldn't have been so easy to manipulate or wouldn't have questioned herself so much. That and the people and politicians would have more faith in her rule and would have supported her more over Yuna's party. Another thing to remember is that all the stress of ruling was piling up and Cagalli who just wanted it all to end or for the load to lighten up. Yuna promised that he would take care of everything after their marriage which is very tempting to anyone that is desperately looking for a way out or anyone to support them when they're all alone.

Had Athrun managed to pierce Kira's plot-armor and killed him in episode 30 we wouldn't have Destiny, Had Rau been a good guy we wouldn't had a nuclear war going on at the end of Seed, Had Fukuda/Morosawa turned in the scripts in time we wouldn't have a show based on stock footage!

Cagalli gave it her everything, she was willing to give up her own life to make sure ORB wasnt burned down to the ground again, that hardly seems to be sign of someone being selfish like you try to make it look like.

Cagalli was never meant to rule ORB at such a young age, her Father hadn't planned on dying so soon, hence why he seemed content letting Cagalli rebel a bit before breaking her back into reality and getting her ready for her roll. Only that time never game due to what happened in SEED.

Cagalli had more than enough life lessons in SEED, Arguments between her VA and Fuku/Moro sealed her deal in Destiny.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Yes, Destiny suffers a lot from Flashbacks. You have to remember it was rushed out the door in a very short time frame to capitalize on SEED fame. Hence why the early episodes are actually quite good but than it takes a dip as time draws on. Hopefully the SEED Destiny HD Remaster will help take off some of that excessive flashback use. They also have material from the SEED Destiny movies/specials that they could pull as well. Helps those are mostly about Athrun so they could be fit nearly anywhere.

Destiny didn't suffer from a lack of time, it was suffering from horrible directors and rewrites, scripts being turned in late forcing animators to take short-cuts to be done in time. Morosawa and Fukuda is to blame for the later parts of Destiny being a shitfest. Stop making stuff up, the show had more than enough time to be written and finished in a good way, lol. Moro/Fuku screwed Destiny up, nothing and noone else screwed it up.

Originally Posted by Haak

The Chairman's speech about the military-industrial complex was nice though he really is starting to look perfect now so I hope that he really did try to assassinate the real Lacus Clyne and I hope the show does reveal more bad sides to him.

See, that's never confirmed, but imo, heavily implied, seeing how he has no control over the real Lacus, and well, uh. Kinda made his own.

[Haak]

^ Spoilers dude...

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Cagalli is still just a girl, she has very little experience in this matter. She doesn't know Yuna is manipulating her since Yuna was told to make it look like he did care for ORB and Cagalli even though he only saw both as a means to an end. It also makes sense that the marriage was arranged because Yuna's family is very well known and popular in ORB, they also had a lot of pull as shown in Destiny where nearly all of Politicians were aligned with Yuna and his more experienced family than Cagalli.

Frankly I thought it was ridiculous that Cagalli couldn't see how much of an arse Yuna was being. I thought it was painfully blatant. Cagalli isn't a girl: She's 18 years old and an adult even if she's a young one. And why does an arranged marriage make sense just because Yuna's family has a lot of pull? I still don't see how it benefits either party.

Had Cagalli been older and more experienced than she wouldn't have been so easy to manipulate or wouldn't have questioned herself so much. That and the people and politicians would have more faith in her rule and would have supported her more over Yuna's party. Another thing to remember is that all the stress of ruling was piling up and Cagalli who just wanted it all to end or for the load to lighten up. Yuna promised that he would take care of everything after their marriage which is very tempting to anyone that is desperately looking for a way out or anyone to support them when they're all alone.

That's not what I saw. When Cagalli had a go at Kira for kidnapping her she said she was only doing it for the people and "why else would I marry that man?" If she had any delusions regarding Yuna then they had been dashed already. I very much doubt she thought Yuna would help her.

Cagalli was never meant to rule ORB at such a young age, her Father hadn't planned on dying so soon, hence why he seemed content letting Cagalli rebel a bit before breaking her back into reality and getting her ready for her roll. Only that time never game due to what happened in SEED.

If she's that unqualified then I don't understand why she's even in that position in the first place.

Yes, Destiny suffers a lot from Flashbacks. You have to remember it was rushed out the door in a very short time frame to capitalize on SEED fame. Hence why the early episodes are actually quite good but than it takes a dip as time draws on. Hopefully the SEED Destiny HD Remaster will help take off some of that excessive flashback use. They also have material from the SEED Destiny movies/specials that they could pull as well. Helps those are mostly about Athrun so they could be fit nearly anywhere.

Yeah...sorry but I'm not waiting around for the Remastered version. The Remastered version for the first season took so freaking long to come out, I gave up on it midway and just watched the original. And I don't recall the Remastered of the first season having any less flashbacks.

[aeriolewinters]

If you're really patient enough, you should've just dl'd the remasters via the usual suspects (pm me if you're really interested)

[Destined_Fate]

Still just a girl who was thrust into a life and position she has no experience in and is expected to restore ORB from the damages and loss it suffered in the last war. That and not everyone really forgave her Father for allowing ORB to be invaded and ORB's values and "pride" was being seen as outdated as they had nothing to show for it but destruction and loss of life.

She did have dillusions, she believed that Yuna would have put ORB first and that she had to accept the wedding, even with her Father dead, because it would be for the good of ORB. Had she seen Yuna for what he truly was and knew of what he was really trying to do than she wouldn't have agreed to the wedding.

Cagalli considered Yuna a creep but she didn't know the full extent of what Yuna was willing to do to obtain power and that he served only his interest and that him being her husband would be very bad for ORB.

She's in position because her Father ruled ORB. She was put there as a figure head to placate the people that did still respect her Father even if many, like Shinn, hate him for allowing ORB to suffer greatly for an outdated code and pride.

You can wait til a few years later to watch it. All I'm just saying is that the Flashback usage only gets worse for Destiny TV as time goes on as well as the horrible ending. Which I'm sure wont be changed in the HD Remaster anyway so what you will see is what we're stuck with outside Game canon that deviates from Official canon.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by monster

Maybe this is where our differences lie. While the show labels it as ideals, it's really more of a foreign policy. This is in no way similar to the USA abandoning democracy.

This is where our differences lie. You only consider it as foreign policy, while I and the show itself consider it as an ideal similar to USA’s so-called democracy. So, for me, it’s very much similar to USA abandoning Democracy just to survive.

Originally Posted by monster

If it was really highly regarded as democracy is in the USA, Athha wouldn't have surrendered Orb in the first place. He would've destroyed the mass driver but kept fighting.

He did destroyed the mass driver after sending the remaining force that ORB has to their escape. Also, I don’t think he’s surrendered. He was fighting in his own way by destroying precious facilities after he knew that he’ll lose, giving Azrail nothing significant to gain. His hope for ORB lies with the escaped Archangel & Kusanagi anyway.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Still just a girl who was thrust into a life and position she has no experience in and is expected to restore ORB from the damages and loss it suffered in the last war. That and not everyone really forgave her Father for allowing ORB to be invaded and ORB's values and "pride" was being seen as outdated as they had nothing to show for it but destruction and loss of life.

If that was ever said beforehand then I definitely must've missed it. I figured Shinn was exception to the rule considering he wound up hating Orb as a whole.

And even if people would become bitter about those ideals, I find it hard to see how they still wouldn't have a grudge against the Earth Feds who pushed them in the first place.

And no experience? I thought she had two years at least.

She did have dillusions, she believed that Yuna would have put ORB first and that she had to accept the wedding, even with her Father dead, because it would be for the good of ORB. Had she seen Yuna for what he truly was and knew of what he was really trying to do than she wouldn't have agreed to the wedding.

Cagalli considered Yuna a creep but she didn't know the full extent of what Yuna was willing to do to obtain power and that he served only his interest and that him being her husband would be very bad for ORB.

I know she believed Yuna would put Orb first but that doesn't automatically mean that she believed Yuna would support her. And it seemed clear to me that she didn't.

And there's no reason for her to agree to the wedding anyway. It serves her no good and would just make her unhappy possibly permanently for what is merely extremely temporary relief for the people.

She's in position because her Father ruled ORB. She was put there as a figure head to placate the people that did still respect her Father even if many, like Shinn, hate him for allowing ORB to suffer greatly for an outdated code and pride.

Ugh...so she basically didn't even deserve to be there anyway. I wonder what the story was trying to achieve with her character then. I originally assumed she was the moral compass point the rest of the politicians were ignoring but now it's kinda hard to believe that when she's this lacking in intelligence. This is the kind of development you expect in a deconstruction of a young idealist in office but she didn't die and the story sort of made her out to be right anyway.

[Destined_Fate]

Two years is nothing, especially since she took over after ORB was leveled. Most of her time would be spent on reconstruction and rebuilding the broken lives of her people than actually getting the education she will need to lead. Furthermore Two years means nothing compared to those like Yuna who were bred for Politics thus not only do they have experience but they have education over Cagalli. Another thing to remember is the role was forced upon her because her Father died and the people needed someone to look to as a leader, hence she was selected due to her blood.

ORB politics were handled poorly as ORB isn't as important as ZAFT or the Feds. Even than ZAFT and Fed politics were handled poorly as well as you don't see internal struggle in either faction anymore. Especially the Feds who have no representative than Logos working behind the scenes and Neo Roanoke.

She had her doubts but that doesn't change that she still felt that Yuna would do more good than harm for ORB. That and she was talked into the marriage being rushed because the people were confused and they needed a distraction. It was a Political move and a smart one, the only issue is that Cagalli didn't love Yuna but had to lie for the people.

It doesn't have to serve her interests, Cagalli was lead to believe that the wedding was needed because it was for the best interest of the people of ORB. Thus she was guilt tripped into it and giving up her ring that Athrun gave her, as she had to, was pretty much her resigning to her fate of marrying a man she didn't love because she desired ORB to be happy even if she wasn't happy.

No idea what they wanted to achieve. To be fair they didn't have anyone else set up to rule ORB after SEED considering her Father and nearly all his loyalists died with him. They could have sent a grunt in their place, the only reason they stayed to die was because of their guilt even if they felt they were right for not bending a knee to the Feds.

Problem is that by doing that they left Cagalli with very few potential allies or those that could help guide her in ruling ORB. Had her father lived he would have saw through Yuna's schemes and would have called off the wedding and wouldn't have lost much from it because of his reputation and experience which the people trusted deeply. Even if it cost many ORB lives in SEED because of that trust.

It's a SEED syndrome, sorta like how no matter what SEED and SEED Destiny go above and beyond to try and make Kira right in every single situation possible. And when he's wrong and gets trashed for it they always save Kira and than later go with that Kira was still right anyway.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Two years is nothing, especially since she took over after ORB was leveled. Most of her time would be spent on reconstruction and rebuilding the broken lives of her people than actually getting the education she will need to lead. Furthermore Two years means nothing compared to those like Yuna who were bred for Politics thus not only do they have experience but they have education over Cagalli. Another thing to remember is the role was forced upon her because her Father died and the people needed someone to look to as a leader, hence she was selected due to her blood.

Two years is a lot of time to pick up experience. Even areas like rebuilding and reconstructions require negotiations and meetings. Yuna is apparently so much more experienced and yet all his manipulations was still painfully obvious. I find it hard to see that you need that much political experience to see what's going on. All she needed to do was realise that Yuna was being a patronising arsehole. You don't even need political experience to figure that out.

She had her doubts but that doesn't change that she still felt that Yuna would do more good than harm for ORB. That and she was talked into the marriage being rushed because the people were confused and they needed a distraction. It was a Political move and a smart one, the only issue is that Cagalli didn't love Yuna but had to lie for the people.

It doesn't have to serve her interests, Cagalli was lead to believe that the wedding was needed because it was for the best interest of the people of ORB. Thus she was guilt tripped into it and giving up her ring that Athrun gave her, as she had to, was pretty much her resigning to her fate of marrying a man she didn't love because she desired ORB to be happy even if she wasn't happy.

But it's just an extremely short term distraction for the people at the expense of her entire happiness. That doesn't even remotely sound smart. The fact that Cagalli didn't love Yuna is hardly a minor issue. This is apparently a decision she's "agonised" over.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

This is where our differences lie. You only consider it as foreign policy, while I and the show itself consider it as an ideal similar to USA’s so-called democracy. So, for me, it’s very much similar to USA abandoning Democracy just to survive.

Well, let's see, one of those ideals is that Orb will not let another nation to invade it. Athha just did that when he sent what fighting power he had to space.

So based on this event, the show doesn't consider this as similar to USA abandoning democracy.

He did destroyed the mass driver after sending the remaining force that ORB has to their escape. Also, I don’t think he’s surrendered. He was fighting in his own way by destroying precious facilities after he knew that he’ll lose, giving Azrail nothing significant to gain. His hope for ORB lies with the escaped Archangel & Kusanagi anyway.

Leaving your nation defenseless is surrendering it to a foreign nation.