Madoka Magica - Character Discussion - Kyubei

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Just like you accused me before, you're unwilling to follow implications to their conclusions and accept them as concrete. It doesn't matter if she tells us she thought of reviving Mami with a wish or not. She showed us that she would not make any wish.

That's not an indication, though, that she even considered the possibility of wishing Mami back from the dead.

While I tend to agree with "Show, don't tell", it does have its limits. Some things shouldn't be left to interpretation, and I definitely think that this is one of them.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Just like you accused me before, you're unwilling to follow implications to their conclusions and accept them as concrete. It doesn't matter if she tells us she thought of reviving Mami with a wish or not. She showed us that she would not make any wish. Even one that could bring back the friend she just lost. That overrides whether she thought of it or not.
You brilliantly teased out subtle nuances to defend Kyubei's innocence before. But now you insist on bluntness?

Because there are times when there is a bread trail to follow, and times when there is not. And for the record, I don't think of my speculations as concrete. Only logically very likely.

And what she showed us, was that she didn't want to become a magical girl; a subtle, but distinct difference. Anything else, is speculation.

For someone who kept insisting that people who accused Kyubei of being evil to not wildly speculate, you're wildly speculating here. What makes you think, if all she wished for was Sayaka's normality, she'd have the power to fix the system? Powers gained are related to the wish, remember? If you want her to have that much power, you need her to make a different wish, and that would mean sacrificing Sayaka's salvation. So, which will it be, Mr. Coldly Logical?

It was never about stopping people from wildly speculating. It was about taking speculation and presenting it as fact, and not even considering another possibility. I wildly speculate myself; see the speculation thread for my latest VR theory. But I don't present it as fact, either.

And all we know so far, is the power is related to the wish; not necessarily what kind of strength may follow. If Madoka wishes Sayaka back to normal, she could gain the power to return other people and things to normal, a kind of "dispel." Given her large magic talent, she could dispel all magic, which would return witches and MG's back to normal.

Would seem to fix the system to me.

[Scrooge McDuck]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Powers gained are related to the wish, remember? If you want her to have that much power, you need her to make a different wish, and that would mean sacrificing Sayaka's salvation.

Huh. We know that the type of the special power is related to the type of the wish. However, I am under the impression that the magnitude of the overall power depends on the girl's potential by itself.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And what she showed us, was that she didn't want to become a magical girl; a subtle, but distinct difference.

One that has the same result. Once she closed the book on becoming a magical girl, she no longer needs to even think about wishing Mami back to life. It's like as if you've already refused a job offer, why even continue thinking about what you could do in that position? Therefore, the issue is addressed and closed.

If Madoka wishes Sayaka back to normal, she could gain the power to return other people and things to normal, a kind of "dispel." Given her large magic talent, she could dispel all magic, which would return witches and MG's back to normal.

Even if she gets the power to dispell magic, it might only make witches cease to exist and MGs lose the ability to control their bodies and "die". For any speculated power you can come up with, I can probably come up with an alternate result that will have limited to no impact on the system. We can keep this up until Madoka becomes an MG or the show ends, whichever comes first.

Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck

However, I am under the impression that the magnitude of the overall power depends on the girl's potential by itself.

But, for what Kaijo wants, we need a power that can affect things other than the MG herself. Take Sayaka's regeneration power. It only heals herself. If it were more powerful, it can heal her even faster. However, it can't heal anyone else, no matter how powerful it is. That is different from a power that grants the MG the ability to heal others, even if it isn't as fast as Sayaka's regeneration.

[Scrooge McDuck]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

One that has the same result. Once she closed the book on becoming a magical girl, she no longer needs to even think about wishing Mami back to life. It's like as if you've already refused a job offer, why even continue thinking about what you could do in that position? Therefore, the issue is addressed and closed.

I think we can all agree that Madoka is kinda on the weaker end of both the "do the logical thing" and the "never look back" spectrums.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

But, for what Kaijo wants, we need a power that can affect things other than the MG herself. Take Sayaka's regeneration power. It only heals herself. If it were more powerful, it can heal her even faster. However, it can't heal anyone else, no matter how powerful it is. That is different from a power that grants the MG the ability to heal others, even if it isn't as fast as Sayaka's regeneration.

Do we really have any idea about how the whole thing works? I hesitate to discuss this reasoning if all we have to go on is a single "her healing ability is greater because her wish is for healing" line from Kyubey. I generally took that as "every MG can heal, Sayaka just can do it faster".

[Jimmy C]

My point is a power that only affects yourself is different from a power that can affect others. Someone who is strong in one may be powerless in the other.
And to add to my previous post, any speculated power resulting from a wish with Kyubei is unlikely to address two items that can continue the system regardless of the power.
One, even if the power can make every witch a non-witch and every MG a normal girl again, Madoka is still stuck with her soul in a Soul Gem that will eventually darken because she needs to use magic simply to control her body. So she'll eventually become a witch.
Two, Kyubei is still free to roam and contract other girls that will become witches eventually.
So, Kaijo, still think you can come up with a power that will end the system?

[Sekirei07]

A problem I see is that even if Madoka's potential wish could reverse all the bad things that happened and stop the system. She would still have to become a MG and would eventually be fated to become a Witch. If that happened no one would be able to stop her.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

One that has the same result. Once she closed the book on becoming a magical girl, she no longer needs to even think about wishing Mami back to life. It's like as if you've already refused a job offer, why even continue thinking about what you could do in that position? Therefore, the issue is addressed and closed.

Everything.

Because if she decided she could become a magical girl, and then Sayaka wondered aloud, "Wait, we get a wish, right? What if we can wish someone back to life?"

Madoka: *thinking* "That's right! I could return everything to normal, and fight along side her so she doesn't die a second time! I'm scared, but I can undo my mistake of not contracting earlier!"

What Madoka was scared of, was becoming a magical girl. With Mami back in the picture, and the potential to undo her mistake which was causing her guilt and regret (not contracting sooner), it might not have been as scary, and might have been enough to make her contract. Remember, the only thing stopping her before was that she couldn't think of a wish; she has a potential one after Mami's death.

But unfortunately, this would make Madoka a magical girl too soon. With Madoka's power, she might very well be able to bring Mami back to life, and thus we wouldn't have a series. So the show has to ignore the obvious question and gloss over even thinking about the implications.

Even if she gets the power to dispell magic, it might only make witches cease to exist and MGs lose the ability to control their bodies and "die".

Considering the theoretical wish is to return Sayaka to normal, such a magic power would have the ability to return everyone else to normal, when paired with Madoka's huge goddess-like potential. Considering Sayaka is a magical and a witch now, that would encompass all witches and magical girls.

For any speculated power you can come up with, I can probably come up with an alternate result that will have limited to no impact on the system. We can keep this up until Madoka becomes an MG or the show ends, whichever comes first.

This is true. But my point was that I could see a possibility for how it might be resolved. You can see everything in a negative light if you really want to, even things that did turn out well in the series.

But, for what Kaijo wants, we need a power that can affect things other than the MG herself. Take Sayaka's regeneration power. It only heals herself. If it were more powerful, it can heal her even faster. However, it can't heal anyone else, no matter how powerful it is. That is different from a power that grants the MG the ability to heal others, even if it isn't as fast as Sayaka's regeneration.

Sayaka's magic is also way weaker than Madoka's, and seemingly weaker than Kyoko's. Perhaps that is the best her power could do, and if she had more magic, she might have gained a stronger healing ability. It is speculation, but to say it is impossible, is denying what is a definite possibility.

Originally Posted by Sekirei07

A problem I see is that even if Madoka's potential wish could reverse all the bad things that happened and stop the system. She would still have to become a MG and would eventually be fated to become a Witch. If that happened no one would be able to stop her.

Unless Madoka chooses to sacrifice herself, thus preventing herself from becoming a witch. Which may just be what happened before Homura would back in time.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

One, even if the power can make every witch a non-witch and every MG a normal girl again, Madoka is still stuck with her soul in a Soul Gem that will eventually darken because she needs to use magic simply to control her body. So she'll eventually become a witch.
Two, Kyubei is still free to roam and contract other girls that will become witches eventually.
So, Kaijo, still think you can come up with a power that will end the system?

Yep, easily. I'm a writer, so having an imagination is kinda a prerequisite. ^_~

She could "dispel" Kyube, too. He's from another world, according to what we've learned, so perhaps magic is, too. Madoka returning things to normal could simply be the effect of forcing the magic back to where it goes. After all, even if she becomes a magical girl, she can rewrite the laws of nature, making it so that magic can't exist in our world anymore. And as I said above, she can choose to sacrifice herself, thus maybe what provided the impetus for Homura to jump back in time.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Because if she decided she could become a magical girl, and then Sayaka wondered aloud, "Wait, we get a wish, right? What if we can wish someone back to life?"

That "if" doesn't help your case. We're talking about how things were actually presented in the show. Whether or not Madoka ever thought about wishing Mami back to life is redundant after she refused to make any wish at all. Your continued nitpick of this is whining of the most pathetic sort.

But unfortunately, this would make Madoka a magical girl too soon. With Madoka's power, she might very well be able to bring Mami back to life, and thus we wouldn't have a series.

I would like to point out a contradiction in your thoughts here. If she just wish Mami back to life, there's no need to use her power to "bring Mami back to life." If she gain the power to "bring Mami back to life" then she made some other wish that gave her this power as a bonus. Which is it?

Considering the theoretical wish is to return Sayaka to normal, such a magic power would have the ability to return everyone else to normal, when paired with Madoka's huge goddess-like potential. Considering Sayaka is a magical and a witch now, that would encompass all witches and magical girls.

And how exactly is she going to manifest this power? Will she just wave her hands and all the witches and MGs worldwide become normal girls again? Then, Kyubei runs off. After some time, he starts contracting new girls. It's even easier now, since he doesn't need to ask them to fight witches in exchange for their wishes. Thank you Madoka! In addition, using that power on a worldwide scale instantly completely darkened her Soul Gem, turning Madoka into a witch.
Perhaps she needs to go to each individual witch and MG and revert them individually? Kyubei then runs off again to recruit more MGs. Meanwhile Madoka is using her magic to revert witches and MGs without getting any Grief Seeds to cleanse her Soul Gem. She eventually turns into a witch.
I didn't even need to come up with an alternative, these are direct consequences of your speculation.

She could "dispel" Kyube, too. He's from another world, according to what we've learned, so perhaps magic is, too.

The Dispel removed all instances of Kyubei from this world. Then Kyubei comes back after she stops casting it. Or better yet, he simply waits until the casting reaches the point where it completely darkens her Soul Gem and turns her into a witch.

See? Hoping for the bonus power to end the system is futile, it's just too unpredictable. You want to use Kyubei to end the system, wish for it directly, it's the only way to be sure. Yet, you used to advocate the wish directly approach, but not since the last 24 hours, why?

[Sekirei07]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Everything.

Unless Madoka chooses to sacrifice herself, thus preventing herself from becoming a witch. Which may just be what happened before Homura would back in time.

She wouldn't sacrifice herself, if she had that fortitude she would have resurrected Mami long ago using her wish, she clearly stated she is too weak willed to do something like that, and that was even before she knew the truth about the Soul Gem. Killing herself is out of the question.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

That "if" doesn't help your case. We're talking about how things were actually presented in the show. Whether or not Madoka ever thought about wishing Mami back to life is redundant after she refused to make any wish at all. Your continued nitpick of this is whining of the most pathetic sort.

Look, Jimmy, I can respect your opinion. But if you are going to resort to this, then discussion is pointless. You can either respect someone else's opinion, or denigrate it to whining, but I had hoped you were better than this.

I have some issues with some parts of the show that I don't feel are adequately addressed. If you are are, fine, that's your opinion and I respect it. I would ask you do the same, and not resort to ad hominem.

Originally Posted by Sekirei07

She wouldn't sacrifice herself, if she had that fortitude she would have resurrected Mami long ago using her wish, she clearly stated she is too weak willed to do something like that, and that was even before she knew the truth about the Soul Gem. Killing herself is out of the question.

She never clearly stated: "I'm sorry I'm too weak to wish you back to life and thus become a magical girl."

Which is different than: "I'm sorry I'm too weak to become a magical girl and take up where you left off."

Either of which could be correct, and says a great deal about she was thinking.

If you want to draw that interpretation, you are free to. But it really can be seen multiple ways, all equally valid. It just wasn't sufficiently addressed for my tastes.

[Kaoru Chujo]

For those who want to punish Kyuube, a little flash game has turned up.

The boxes under the image are "pause," "reset," and volume.

[Sekirei07]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

She never clearly stated: "I'm sorry I'm too weak to wish you back to life and thus become a magical girl."

Which is different than: "I'm sorry I'm too weak to become a magical girl and take up where you left off."

Either of which could be correct, and says a great deal about she was thinking.

If you want to draw that interpretation, you are free to. But it really can be seen multiple ways, all equally valid. It just wasn't sufficiently addressed for my tastes.

True, but human nature is about self preservation. Hmm, what about a wish like "I wish QB had never existed"

If she wished that, wouldn't all the damage and MG be saved and Madoka wouldn't have to become a MG because QB wouldn't have existed?
Although that route would mean a total rewrite of history and there existence would most likely be erased. Since the Madoka that met QB would have never existed to start with. Also I suppose Mami would still be dead since she was going to die anyways.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Sekirei07

True, but human nature is about self preservation. Hmm, what about a wish like "I wish QB had never existed"

If she wished that, wouldn't all the damage and MG be saved and Madoka wouldn't have to become a MG because QB wouldn't have existed?
Although that route would mean a total rewrite of history and there existence would most likely be erased. Since the Madoka that met QB would have never existed to start with. Also I suppose Mami would still be dead since she was going to die anyways.

Heh, an interesting possibility. It's hard to know, isn't it? So many different wishes, and she has having trouble deciding before what to wish for. About the only thing we know, is that she finally seems to have possibly come up with a wish, to make Sayaka normal again. We'll see what happens in ep 9 when Kyube pops up again, as to whether Madoka will still be willing to make the wish or not.

[Sekirei07]

I found the word play for QB's real name to be funny.

I originally thought it was short for like the 9-tailed fox since he was a magical animal. Never would have guessed it was something like Incubator lol

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Sekirei07

I found the word play for QB's real name to be funny.

I originally thought it was short for like the 9-tailed fox since he was a magical animal. Never would have guessed it was something like Incubator lol

This seems to more show that QB is in fact not japanese in origins which I figured due to the title. It seems his roots might lead all the way back to Roman times. Here is an interesting article I found while surfing around for the latin root of his name. http://www.allaboutstuff.com/General/Nightmares.asp Does make you wonder...

[gsilver]

More fun fuel for the "Kyubey revives witches" fire:

Remember the tree witch that Sayaka fights in episode 7? It sure looks an awful lot like the tree witch in episode 1.

[panzerfan]

This is why that MeoTwister5 and I are emotionally damaged from the whole idea of Incubator the Incubus, who tempts girls into giving birth to witches. If it'd be other authors I'd dismiss more readily, but this be at the hands of Urobuchi Gen...

[taofd]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

This is why that MeoTwister5 and I are emotionally damaged from the whole idea of Incubator the Incubus, who tempts girls into giving birth to witches. If it'd be other authors I'd dismiss more readily, but this be at the hands of Urobuchi Gen...

Uhhhhhh....

From that statement, I gleaned: emotionally damaged, Incubus, Incubator, tempts girls, birth to witches (and from my subconscious, I added tentacles).

Congrats, I think you just wrote the script to a Madoka Magica erotic fiction / doujin.

o_O

[Sekirei07]

Sadly I have seen one of QB doing it with Madoka ;;