Kyoto Animation: Studio discussion, speculation, and whatnot.

[Warm Mist]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Umm... Chuni is a ln adaptation not an anime original.

No, it is not. The plot of the anime has virtually nothing to do with the plot of the novels besides one small chapter. Not to mention how they added characters, changed dynamics, and reworked already existing characters, plus disregarding an entire volume completely.
Chuunibyou is, for all intents and purposes, an original series.

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

In regards to Tamako Market

I wonder why so many people find it differently then. I mean, the "otaku" you refer to in the post declared that this show "is not an otaku show".
Your assesment of the show looks like it's coming from someone who only watched it to confirm a previous bias, because the elements you decide to highlight don't coincide with what the show was highlighting at all. The show never falls into "cuteness factor" as you put it. At any rate, you could say it failed to evoke emotion and structure itself properly (I don't actually think that, but it's a respectable position), but claiming that the series ran away from doing it to hide in tried and true tropes and character designs strikes me as very obtuse. Tamako Market as a slice of life was pretty unconventional, but it had a distinct sense of pacing and dynamic that's far from being "safe and generic". May not be everyone's cup of tea (I certainly preferred Hyouka and K-On! over it), but I don't see how your criticisms are grounded in the actual text.

[ultimatemegax]

Originally Posted by brocko

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...78#post4608178
If they wanted to be meta, then they could be passing new episodes off under the impression of a re-broadcast like Haruhi 2009 to take the piss outta that series. But Chuuni wasn't very parody heavy in nature so it's probably a little bit of a stretch.

Either way I'm starting to get tired of all this viral marketing. Give just enough information to pique interest, but not enough so as to cause slight confusion. Watch discussion and promotion naturally occur, then string along. Ain't playing this game any more, I'm getting sick of it. I'd rather just wait and get a straight answer than feed their hype machine.

Rebroadcasts occur all the time, but people don't ever find out about them because why would international audiences care? Most people here pirate it anyways. Guess which show was re-broadcast during winter? Hyouka. Guess which show will be re-broadcast starting next month? Nichijou. Both of those were advertised on the official site, yet neither of them have any chance of having more episodes made. Basically, just because ONE instance of something being called a "rebroadcast" happened to have new episodes doesn't mean that rule can be applied to EVERY SINGLE SHOW!

This isn't viral marketing as saying "you'll be seeing more" without a set time line for use to see more. Said type of marketing always occurs for NEARLY EVERY SINGLE SHOW! How many threads start in the "upcoming anime" forum which have one page scans going "Anime confirmed!" and that's it? They can't give out any more information than this because there's no new news to give out! Again, just because one show had some viral marketing strategies does not mean that every single show is going to have those.

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Don't think we'll be getting another anime original project anytime soon considering it's 2 strikes out of 2 in that department (Munto and now Tamako Market). Kyoani is no PA works, so it's probably better to stick with adaptations which is what they are good at.

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Umm... Chuni is a ln adaptation not an anime original.

Thanks for confirming that you've not read the novels otherwise you wouldn't be saying this. The vast majority of the anime came not from the novel, but from Ishihara and Hanada themselves. Chuunibyou may be an "adaptation" but it's more accurate to say it's original because it doesn't follow the source material outside of two~ish episodes. Do some research before commenting on things.

Warm Mist does a better job than I could do at the moment regarding the horrible use of "moe" in this thread, so I'll recommend reading their post.

[rulfo]

Whoah!? ANOTHER SEASON!?

So fast!

I'm happy and sad at the same time.

Happy because more Nibutani is welcomed and sad because WE MISSED IT BY THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS MUCH.

[4Tran]

A new Chuuni? It looks like Kyoto Animation is hungry for money. Maybe Tamako Market's flub hurt them more than expected, and they're not reaping the rewards of K-ON mega-yen after all. Hopefully, they've learned their lesson about awful OPs for the new show.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

Thanks for confirming that you've not read the novels otherwise you wouldn't be saying this. The vast majority of the anime came not from the novel, but from Ishihara and Hanada themselves. Chuunibyou may be an "adaptation" but it's more accurate to say it's original because it doesn't follow the source material outside of two~ish episodes. Do some research before commenting on things.

No I have not read the novels, but I don't care. I'm kind of getting sick of the expectation amongst some anime fans that you have to read the source material of an animated series to have a valid opinion. What kind of bull is that? MAL, ANN and wiki have it listed as a LN adaptation, so that's what I had coming in. I don't think I am obligated to read any interviews either, particularly for a show that whilst pretty decent, isn't worth digging into at least for me. Regardless, Chuunibyou fell apart from me in its 2nd half when it decided to go all srs bzn. If that was "anime original" material then it just solidifies my point that kyoani is still unproven at doing anime original material or rather poor at it.


As for Tamako Market, the whole debacle arose because "fans" of the series are trying to justify its [relative] poor sales because it wasn't aimed at otaku. What I'm saying is that notion is a big load of bull. Aside from the fact, there's "kawaii" written all over the show, if you are talking about latenight anime, then that's aimed at otaku. Yes, even something as good as Psycho Pass or Shin Sekai Yori is aimed at otaku. My beef with Tamako Market isn't the fact it was otaku centric or not, it was at best mildly amusing and charming, but most of the time flat out boring (and some of the time annoying due to Dera, who started off comedy gold but then got old pretty fast). There is no "wowing visuals" or "sharp dialogue and characterisation" like in Hyouka, nor is it straight out funny like Minamk-ke nor is it genuinely hearwarming and bittersweet like Tari Tari. I like the OP, I like Tamako's upbeat attitude at times, I liked Dera at the start and I really liked the episode that dealt with Tamako's dad (if only other episodes were character focused as this and good). However, that's about it. That is insufficient to classify the series as great as there is LACK of substance.

[Ascaloth]

So what I'm getting out of this is, the anime Chuu2 is as much of an adaptation of the novel Chuu2, as the anime True Tears is an adaptation of the VN True Tears?

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

So what I'm getting out of this is, the anime Chuu2 is as much of an adaptation of the novel Chuu2, as the anime True Tears is an adaptation of the VN True Tears?

Think it's less severe than that. According to what ultimategaex said apparently the first two episodes are adapted and the rest original.

But really, it just re-inforces my point regarding the second half if it was indeed anime original. It was forced drama/romance everywhere and not pleasant to watch. Though the ending was pretty decent.

[OceanBlue]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

No I have not read the novels, but I don't care. I'm kind of getting sick of the expectation amongst some anime fans that you have to read the source material of an animated series to have a valid opinion. What kind of bull is that? MAL, ANN and wiki have it listed as a LN adaptation, so that's what I had coming in. I don't think I am obligated to read any interviews either, particularly for a show that whilst pretty decent, isn't worth digging into at least for me.

You don't need to read the source material to have a valid opinion, but being ignorant doesn't protect you from being corrected when you're wrong.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by OceanBlue

You don't need to read the source material to have a valid opinion, but being ignorant doesn't protect you from being corrected when you're wrong.

Was half wrong at most.

[whitecloud]

what do you want from chuuni? chuunibyou alternative? instead the current "world" kyoani make a reboot that make all rikka imagination as real just like depth of field...(even though it would be interesting, true dark flame master, robot battle, post apocalyptic other world setting)

[brocko]

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

Rebroadcasts occur all the time, but people don't ever find out about them because why would international audiences care? Most people here pirate it anyways. Guess which show was re-broadcast during winter? Hyouka. Guess which show will be re-broadcast starting next month? Nichijou. Both of those were advertised on the official site, yet neither of them have any chance of having more episodes made. Basically, just because ONE instance of something being called a "rebroadcast" happened to have new episodes doesn't mean that rule can be applied to EVERY SINGLE SHOW!

I really think you're over-reacting a little to my post there. I realise that the 2009 Haruhi broadcast was an exception and not the norm. I ain't trying to use it as a justification to blanket all other rebroadcasts. The fact that I mentioned it was "probably a little bit of a stretch" in the first place, shows even I wasn't taking the idea seriously at all. Said comment was made more in jest than anything, but due to the nature of internet I guess it didn't come across so well.

You do make a good point about how we don't often hear about rebroadcasts at all because the news normally get filtered out for us. I never realised they were as common as you make it out to be since productions committees usually fork out money for time slots and I'd assume they'd rather use it for newer material instead.

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

This isn't viral marketing as saying "you'll be seeing more" without a set time line for use to see more. Said type of marketing always occurs for NEARLY EVERY SINGLE SHOW! How many threads start in the "upcoming anime" forum which have one page scans going "Anime confirmed!" and that's it? They can't give out any more information than this because there's no new news to give out! Again, just because one show had some viral marketing strategies does not mean that every single show is going to have those.

It's viral in the sense that they explicitly go out of their way to set up a guessing game, "Is it really a re-broadcast? Why would we even make a new promo artwork for a simple re-broadcasting?" (source). They know damn well whether it's going to be re-broadcast or not, yet they withhold that information and simply state "the contract continues" instead. The very ambiguity of it is what makes it viral, and they do it because they know that's what will get people talking. A simple title announcement I don't think would constitute as viral at all, but when you start being purposefully vague or doing things like making announcements of announcements....

[Triple_R]

Tamako Market was KyoAni's attempt to thread the needle, and sow together two distinct markets for a big success. Those markets being the core customer-base for late-night anime shows, and general audiences.

This was likely the brainchild of KyoAni recognizing that K-On! had developed similar cross-over appeal.

"Look at what K-On! did!" a member of the KyoAni focus group said, "Now imagine what we could accomplish if we actually tried to get two major markets in one shot?"

So you have Tamako Market - A family friendly show where three of the four main high school girls bear a striking resemblance to Yui Hirasawa, Ritsu, and Azusa, while the other one is the spitting image of Eru Chitanda.

In theory, it was a nice idea. But the risk in trying to capture two major markets in one shot is that sometimes your attempts come off as half-assed to each major market, leaving you appealing to neither. And I think this is what happened here.

If I wanted moe, it was more consistent and prominent in Love Live! and VRO than it was in Tamako Market. And lo and behold, Love Live! is selling great right now.


Now, as for Chuuni Season 2 - Well, first of all, I don't think we should necessarily consider this a response to poor Tamako Market sales. KyoAni has probably been working on Chuuni Season 2 for quite some time already.

Chuuni Season 2 wouldn't be my first for the next KyoAni show - I think people who know me well know what my first choice would be - But nonetheless, it'll be interesting to see where they go forward with the Chuuni narrative given that I found it's ending rather neat and tidy without it being clear where they could go next with it.

[ultimatemegax]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Was half wrong at most.

Why yes, 2 episodes equals half of a show. It's an LN adaptation in name alone. BTW, it's episodes 1 and 5 with Isshiki's notebook in episode 6 (and that alone) which come from the novel. The scenes in question are also changed, so it's even less than 2 episodes. In short, it's vastly different from the novel and you saying you're "half wrong" is hilariously incorrect.

Originally Posted by brocko

I really think you're over-reacting a little to my post there. I realise that the 2009 Haruhi broadcast was an exception and not the norm. I ain't trying to use it as a justification to blanket all other rebroadcasts. The fact that I mentioned it was "probably a little bit of a stretch" in the first place, shows even I wasn't taking the idea seriously at all. Said comment was made more in jest than anything, but due to the nature of internet I guess it didn't come across so well.

Yeah, I didn't take it as a joke given other comments (not just here) that annoyed me and RL annoyances at the time. I wasn't in a mood for jokes.

Originally Posted by brocko

You do make a good point about how we don't often hear about rebroadcasts at all because the news normally get filtered out for us. I never realised they were as common as you make it out to be since productions committees usually fork out money for time slots and I'd assume they'd rather use it for newer material instead.

Oh those are only the ones that are advertised too. The Haruhi website didn't advertise any of the re-airings last year on AT-X or Kids Station nor the upcoming one on Kids Station. These aren't exactly the same as the usual "purchase a timeslot" as the station is requesting versions to run and it's not costly for the committee to do so.

Originally Posted by brocko

It's viral in the sense that they explicitly go out of their way to set up a guessing game, "Is it really a re-broadcast? Why would we even make a new promo artwork or a simple re-broadcasting?" (source). They know damn well whether it's going to be re-broadcast or not, yet they withhold that information and simply state "the contract continues" instead. The very ambiguity of it is what makes it viral, and they do it because they know that's what will get people talking. A simple title announcement I don't think would constitute as viral at all, but when you start being purposefully vague or doing things like making announcements of announcements....

The said tweet you source was a clarification to say "Would we make new artwork/clips for a rebroadcasting notice?" to stop that line of thought. They already advertised/announced that, but people kept tying the two together and yet they can't announce anything else at the moment besides "something's been green-lit for more." They don't have a final title to announce. They don't have an air-date. They don't have any plotline details to announce. Ishihara/Hanada have been working on Tamako and other winter shows, so they've not had the time to formulate any kind of baseline plot. What else could they say that might not end up changing due to outside forces?

I hate the term "viral marketing" in this instance because they had one chance to announce something via CM before their show went off the air to hype up a return, but they don't have anything other than a confirmation at the moment. It's not viral or vague, it's all they can literally say.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Tamako Market was KyoAni's attempt to thread the needle, and sow together two distinct markets for a big success. Those markets being the core customer-base for late-night anime shows, and general audiences.

This was likely the brainchild of KyoAni recognizing that K-On! had developed similar cross-over appeal.

"Look at what K-On! did!" a member of the KyoAni focus group said, "Now imagine what we could accomplish if we actually tried to get two major markets in one shot?"

So you have Tamako Market - A family friendly show where three of the four main high school girls bear a striking resemblance to Yui Hirasawa, Ritsu, and Azusa, while the other one is the spitting image of Eru Chitanda.

In theory, it was a nice idea. But the risk in trying to capture two major markets in one shot is that sometimes your attempts come off as half-assed to each major market, leaving you appealing to neither. And I think this is what happened here.

If I wanted moe, it was more consistent and prominent in Love Live! and VRO than it was in Tamako Market. And lo and behold, Love Live! is selling great right now.


Now, as for Chuuni Season 2 - Well, first of all, I don't think we should necessarily consider this a response to poor Tamako Market sales. KyoAni has probably been working on Chuuni Season 2 for quite some time already.

Chuuni Season 2 wouldn't be my first for the next KyoAni show - I think people who know me well know what my first choice would be - But nonetheless, it'll be interesting to see where they go forward with the Chuuni narrative given that I found it's ending rather neat and tidy without it being clear where they could go next with it.

With the common members in both Chuunibyou and Tamako's production committee's (KyoAni/Pony Canyon/TBS in that order), it's likely that these three members worked out an agreement for two "original" works to air Fall/Winter so losses in one would be balanced by the other. By making two shows instead of one, they could earn more from disc sales (Pony) without increasing animation costs compared to a normal 2-cour show. This is why neither of them would've been 2 cour from the start. If one became very successful, they would have the option to do more (and look what happened with Chuunibyou). A sequel doesn't require as much start-up time as the original (see K-On!! for evidence), and the staff has been working on other shows until now, so now they can pour time/effort into improving that show's visuals and working out the plot.

I agree that Tamako was designed to appeal to the crowd that liked K-On! but not in those terms. Remember, it's not KyoAni making these decisions. Pony Canyon decided to back this show's music rather than letting Lantis handle it like in Chuunibyou. I wouldn't put the family-friendly concept any further than what happened with K-On!. In a sense, it was successful by entertaining people, but it doesn't inspire you to buy discs.

The other issue people are having is "why Chuunibyou and why not Haruhi/Lucky Star/Full Metal Panic/K-On!/Hyouka?!" First, four of those shows are produced by the Kadokawa/KyoAni production committee (Kadokawa Shouten/Kadokawa Pictures (for most/not all)/Kyoto Animation/Clockworks/Lantis), and so wouldn't be announced via a CM during the KyoAni/Pony Canyon timeslot. We don't know what show is coming next from Kadokawa or if one will be coming since those are announced via Kadokawa's publications (with the exception of Hyouka). There was never any chance of one of those shows being announced now.

Secondly, the two latest KyoAni shows were a risk for the company. Not in the terms that people want to say "risk" by animating a completely different genre, but a big financial risk. Instead of being relegated to third or lower in the production committee, KyoAni invested funds into Chuunibyou and Tamako and got a huge return for for former. This is their own brand meaning they earned much more profits for that than anything they could animate from Kadokawa. As a business, it only makes sense to continue something that's really profitable for you more than other possible shows. At the same time, you also need to do adaptations in case of an original flopping (Hyouka). As a fan, I'd love for them to do more Haruhi, but I realize first and foremost that this is a business and you need to have income to continue making shows first.

[SRanger]

godamnit. More chuu2?

Like Pocari Sweat mentioned, Chuu2 fell off the map during its second half the series, forced drama and bad romance ruined the show.

Chuu2 was excellent as a comedy series - it had a lot of potential with its supporting cast with Nibutani and Touka, and they kind of toss out the entire cast comedy chemistry for a really lack-luster romance plot.

How the hell are they going to make a S2? Rikka is far from the chuuni she was in the beginning of the series now, and I doubt Yuuta is going to go back to his dark flame master ways as well.

gawdamnit KyoAni, chuu2 was the announcement I didn't want to hear. Hyouka, Haruhi, K-on, LS...

[brocko]

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

The said tweet you source was a clarification to say "Would we make new artwork/clips for a rebroadcasting notice?" to stop that line of thought. They already advertised/announced that, but people kept tying the two together and yet they can't announce anything else at the moment besides "something's been green-lit for more." They don't have a final title to announce. They don't have an air-date. They don't have any plotline details to announce. Ishihara/Hanada have been working on Tamako and other winter shows, so they've not had the time to formulate any kind of baseline plot. What else could they say that might not end up changing due to outside forces?

I hate the term "viral marketing" in this instance because they had one chance to announce something via CM before their show went off the air to hype up a return, but they don't have anything other than a confirmation at the moment. It's not viral or vague, it's all they can literally say.

It seems I could very well have misinterpreted things a little here. For clarifications sake, the Chuuni announcement at the end of Tamako was suppose to be for a new season? I was under the impression that it said the same thing as that "the contract continues" tweet, leaving it up to fans to determine whether the announcement was meant to actually be for a re-broadcast or a legit 2nd season. Lotta miscommunications going around for me today then if so lol

[ultimatemegax]

Originally Posted by brocko

It seems I could very well have misinterpreted things a little here. For clarifications sake, the Chuuni announcement at the end of Tamako was suppose to be for a new season? I was under the impression that it said the same thing as that "the contract continues" tweet, leaving it up to fans to determine whether the announcement was meant to actually be for a re-broadcast or a legit 2nd season. Lotta miscommunications going around for me today then if so lol

It's for something new that may change depending on the circumstances (which is why they're not committing to a format). This is likely a second season, movie, or OVA since they've not run a CM for the novels. It was not meant to advertise the re-broadcasting at all.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

Why yes, 2 episodes equals half of a show. It's an LN adaptation in name alone. BTW, it's episodes 1 and 5 with Isshiki's notebook in episode 6 (and that alone) which come from the novel. The scenes in question are also changed, so it's even less than 2 episodes. In short, it's vastly different from the novel and you saying you're "half wrong" is hilariously incorrect.

Now you're just being an smartass. I don't give a rat's hoot of what episode uses what part of the source material, what episode is completely anime original or director did what episode blah blah blah. To be frank I don't care enough since I didn't like the series enough to research it, NOR AM I OBLIGATED. Heck, I don't even do that for shows I like most of the time. However, if you are USING the source material in any shape of form other than merely for title reasons, that is a LN adaptation. You don't see the first FMA anime being called an anime original series despite more than half of its material being "anime original" do you? It's a still damn adaptation. Same deal with Chuunibyou. Call it a loose one, but it's still a damn adaptation. It has anime original material, maybe even a majority? Great. Guess what, second half still sucked. They should have stuck with it as a lighthearted comedy where it worked pretty well and I was quite enjoying myself, but nope teenage power of love and melodrama comes and ruins the day.

And I don't even know why you're so persistent on this "chunnibyou adaptation point", when most of my argument has been about Tamako Market. Point is, even amongst "fans" of the genre it was pretty mixed. Sales are relatively poor, it has a pretty damn low rating for a Kyoani show of around 7.5 and 7.2 out of 10 on MAL and ANN respectively and is pretty mixed here on Animesuki too. That's not to quote someone letting my "bias" get in the way. It's definitely not the worst show of the season, but it's definitely not the best nor does it fall under anything more than "decent". Want a good example of a well done slice of life series done this season - Minami-ke Tadaima. Want a good example of something that Kyoani has done excellently in recent times - Hyouka.

Moral of the story, it's another wakeup call for Kyoani.

[rulfo]

I could in a way agree with Chuunibyou having a non satisfactory drama but bad romance? I think that's the other aspect this show that was done quite well.

Oh well... "Opinions"

Also... I really hope whoever thought up of the description "forced drama" would go to hell. It's really a terrible word and used in such a terrible way like the word "moe" is being used in the anime community.

It really reeks of /a/ trolling bullshit.

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Sales are relatively poor, it has a pretty damn low rating for a Kyoani show of around 7.5 and 7.2 out of 10 on MAL and ANN respectively and is pretty mixed here on Animesuki too.

I don't mean to step into both your arguments but please do not bring in international fanbase = japan fanbase. They're not the same. Hence why I find that bringing up ANN/MAL/Animesuki there is next to pointless otherwise if both were of the same preferences then we'd be seeing people agree with K-ON's sales even more. Just saying.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by rulfo

I could in a way agree with Chuunibyou having a non satisfactory drama but bad romance? I think that's the other aspect this show that was done quite well.

Oh well... "Opinions"

Different opinions indeed, but I'm far from the only one. Go re-read the Chuunibyou Final Impressions again and the Animesuki 2012 discussion board (Nomination phase) and you'll see a fair share of complaints. Besides, in comparison to series like Tonari no Kaibutsu-kun, Sakamichi no Apollon, Chihayafuru, heck even Sukitte Il Na Yo, Kokoro Connect or even Hyouka or Sword Art Online (as much as I had a problem with that show), it paled.

Also... I really hope whoever thought up of the description "forced drama" would go to hell. It's really a terrible word and used in such a terrible way like the word "moe" is being used in the anime community.

It really reeks of /a/ trolling bullshit.

Do you prefer the term "wangst" then? Cause "forced drama" is just a nicer way of saying it, and that's what it exactly is. I am not trolling.

I don't mean to step into both your arguments but please do not bring in international fanbase = japan fanbase. They're not the same. Hence why I find that bringing up ANN/MAL/Animesuki there is next to pointless otherwise if both were of the same preferences then we'd be seeing people agree with K-ON's sales even more. Just saying.

Animesuki is an english anime forum built for english speaking fans, so no, opinions on Animesuki and other english board/databases like MAL/ANN are not irrelevant. MAL for example has some pretty high biases for "moe-centric" shows anyway. Why should, on a English anime forum of all things, only allow Japanese opinions be considered "acceptable". Plus it's mixed receptions in ALL of Animesuki, ANN and MAL not just one or two of them, so Tamako Market obviously done something wrong.

[rulfo]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Do you prefer the term "wangst" then? Cause "forced drama" is just a nicer way of saying it, and that's what it exactly is. I am not trolling.

Why thank you for adding more buzzwords. Oh and for the record I didn't say you were trolling no need to come off in a defensive stance. I just said it's a poor choice of word for making such an argument.

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Animesuki is an english anime forum built for english speaking fans, so no, opinions on Animesuki and other english board/databases like MAL/ANN are totally relevant. Why should, on a English anime forum of all things, only allow Japanese fans to be "acceptable".

Ok then carry on. If that's how you think it works then by all means proceed. I just shared my views.