True Tears - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[cloudninja]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

The thing is no one likes to hate their parents and that in its own right is damaging for child and parent alike. I don't understand what type of person can actually do that to their children and then justify it in their own minds as it is for their own good. In Shin's mum's case, the letters and future is one thing, but actively picking on a girl who has lost her family and is dependant on her is just shocking.

The thing I'm waiting on is for Shinichiro's father to actually voice his opinion. He defended Shinichiro's privacy when his mother opened his letter and showed some interest in his picture book. He asked Shinichiro about his decision on his high school application but did'nt press further when Shin said he had not decided yet. He did say in episode 3 that Hiromi should be treated like their daughter now. He strikes me as the relatively silent but supportive type, and seems to be a good person. He would be a huge factor in getting his wife off Shin and Hiromi's backs. If and when he actively supports Shinichiro I think his mother will fall in line.

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

Not that extreme but I do know what you mean. For shin, instead of sulking like a baby and continuing the game of silent (but apparent) game of warfare with his mother, it would just be best for him to tell her what he feels about the situation. A mother to butt into his business like that is not right, morally though it is the same thing if shin just acted like a rebel. He needs to talk to her so they can understand each other more and to stop this misunderstanding (the same misunderstanding which makes the mother think that hiromi is causing the destruction of her mother-son relationship and hence the bad treatment she recieves). Shin's mother is trying to talk but the brat is being a "good boy" through shutting up and locking himself in isolation

I agree that Shinichiro should talk instead of running away but his mother does'nt strike me as the reasonable and understanding type which is probably why he avoids her. I doubt anyone watching the show likes her character as a person so far. It's probably from similar past experience that he has decided to avoid her as she would probably say the same thing over and over until he agrees with her. Except this time it's something that he really wants to do so he does'nt want to give in to his mother. Now if the father entered the picture I could see a good resolution coming out of this but I guess it's too early in the show for that. Hopefully we'll see that happen by the end.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

@Sinestra - Great point about the blessing, I got messed up really badly with that during my early 20s involving parents blessing and race of my partner. It's an absolutely horrible place to be, and now that you mentioned it, I remember it was something that was very important to me and my GF at the time.

Iv had the same experience in the past Grey_Moon and coming from a huge ethnicly diverse family it was not a big deal to me but it was to my partners parents, who Asian btw but you know i won them over eventually with who i was not the color of my skin. Even my sister who is half German and half Black American has struggled but got through with her will. Having your parents approve of your partner is a great feeling. But its not everything and making your own choices with or without your parents blessing is a part of growing up. Honestly, i love to see an anime that delt with some issues like you and I have mentioned. The great thing about anime is anything can be done i think a drama revolving around 2 ethnic diverse people in love would be a nice series just my opinion of course.

[dan88]

And I'll bet 100 bucks in favor of Noe!

I think there is a good chance that Shinichirō and Hiromi have the same father. This would explain the mothers dislike of Hiromi and why she is living in the same house.

Shinichirō needs a good kicking. He needs to make up his mind (and choose Noe!) however that's the basis of Harem anime for you. I think he will break the hearts of Aiko and Hiromi. Aiko is equally bad for messing around Miyokichi.

Jun seems like the type to have girls throwing themselves at him and so doesn't really care. I seem to remember Hiromi knew Jun. Maybe (pure speculation) Jun even had a cuddle of some type with Hiromi and it didn't really mean anything to him - just some nameless girl he meet a couple of years ago. This might be why Hiromi's friend is supporting their relationship?

I like Noe. Good for her for trying hard to get the guy she likes - and cooking for him. Noe seems pretty lonely and I don't see any indication she has other friends. I think she now realises Shinichirō is feckless unfaithful liar but still likes him. Of the three girls she seems the strongest.

Noe deserves better than Shinichirō.

To me it is clear that Noe is interested in Shinichirō romantically. You don't lick the face of someone you want as a friend or see as a rooster. Noe cooked him food and turned up at his place to see him dance, basically chasing him around. Noe has seen that Shinichirō lied to her about walking home with her. She may have thought better of him but now knows the score. I don't think she is particularly innocent.

Shinichirō seem to actually go looking for Noe by the tree and then chicken out. This seems to suggest he is pretty weak.

Shinichirō seems to like girls (any girl) making a fuss of him. So what ever girl fights hardest will probably get Shinichirō. Aiko goes to another school and works so won't have that much of an opportunity. While Hiromi lives with Shinichirō she does not seem to be very forward and will miss out if she waits. On the other hand Noe is actively pursuing Shinichirō.

I think there is a good chance that Shinichirō father is like his son... a feckless womaniser?
If Hiromi's mother was like her daughter then there is a good chance she had an affair with Shinichirō dad.

Shinichirō mum is probably your typical japanese wife and puts up with things. She probably knew what her husband was like when she married him. Will history repeat with Shinichirō, Noe, Aiko and Miyokichi?

[dojikyo]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I guess I'm the only person in the world who still thinks there might be some truth in Hiromi's "lie" about being attracted to Jun.

No. I also think that Hiromi might think Jun is kind of cute and what not. If nothing else Aiko illustrates how it isn't necessarily one and only one at a time.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by dojikyo

No. I also think that Hiromi might think Jun is kind of cute and what not. If nothing else Aiko illustrates how it isn't necessarily one and only one at a time.

even though i think she likes Shin, she would be much better going for Jun. that will leave things open for Aiko!

[cloudninja]

Originally Posted by dojikyo

No. I also think that Hiromi might think Jun is kind of cute and what not. If nothing else Aiko illustrates how it isn't necessarily one and only one at a time.

Originally Posted by golthin

even though i think she likes Shin, she would be much better going for Jun. that will leave things open for Aiko!

I've got a feeling that Jun is not quite right in the head...not necessarily crazy or anything, just on the odd or eccentric side. Now who does that remind us of? Oh yes, Noe. Except his eccentricity will probably manifest itself in a different way. His exchange with Shinichiro gave a hint that he does'nt see things the way "normal" people do and I think we just scratched the surface of that.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by cloudninja

The thing I'm waiting on is for Shinichiro's father to actually voice his opinion. He defended Shinichiro's privacy when his mother opened his letter and showed some interest in his picture book. He asked Shinichiro about his decision on his high school application but did'nt press further when Shin said he had not decided yet. He did say in episode 3 that Hiromi should be treated like their daughter now. He strikes me as the relatively silent but supportive type, and seems to be a good person. He would be a huge factor in getting his wife off Shin and Hiromi's backs. If and when he actively supports Shinichiro I think his mother will fall in line.

I think one of the major parts of Hiromi's story isn't who she will end up with, but why does Shin's mum hate her so much for. I think unless she is able to resolve that she won't be happy unless she finds some way to escape from there. The problem for this Cinderella is that the prince happens to be the ugly step mother's son

[Grimkill7]

I love the story, but I'm having a hard time liking the characters. I dislike over half of them, 2 of the main characters including. I like Nobuse, Aiko, Shin's dad and Noe. Shin, his mom, Jun and Hiromi I could do without, at least for now. Shin is a freakin idiot for not noticing Aiko's feelings and mistakenly setting up Hiromi with Jun. Shin's mom is a b**** who not only treats Hiromi like a subhuman, but is ALL over Shin's back. Cut the umbilical cord lady. Jun is a douchebag who just reeks of sleaze. I don't like the way he acts around Noe one bit either. Hiromi is a little twit who seeks to solve her issues in a non-confronting, passive-aggressive manner instead of tackling them head on. [sarcasm] It'll be fun to watch her dance around her feelings for the majority of the show. [/sarcasm]

Well now that I said what needed to be said, I would just like to restate that the storyline is phenomenal. One of the best I've had the pleasure to endure. Not quite $30 an episode material, but ...

Originally Posted by grey_moon

I think one of the major parts of Hiromi's story isn't who she will end up with, but why does Shin's mum hate her so much for. I think unless she is able to resolve that she won't be happy unless she finds some way to escape from there. The problem for this Cinderella is that the prince happens to be the ugly step mother's son

Honestly, I'm not that interested. And I doubt I ever will be. Myself; Yourself has ruined this kind of storyline for me forever. As a matter of fact, I want the mom's reason for hating Hiromi to be minor. Borderline insignificant. Better underplayed than melodramatic I always say.

Originally Posted by golthin

even though i think she likes Shin, she would be much better going for Jun. that will leave things open for Aiko!

I'll second that notion

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Grimkill7

Honestly, I'm not that interested. And I doubt I ever will be. Myself; Yourself has ruined this kind of storyline for me forever. As a matter of fact, I want the mom's reason for hating Hiromi to be minor. Borderline insignificant. Better underplayed than melodramatic I always say.

The thing is Shin's mum is directly affecting the behaviour of Hiromi. Not only how she behaves around Shin, but at school as well. For example lets say that she does like Shin and Jun was just an excuse to drive Shin away. That means that Shin's mum just ruined that relationship and now Hiromi could get sucked into a relationship she doesn't want to get into because of the excuse and Shin's meddling.

Her friend has highlighted how she is over practising now, and from our PoV we know it is due to the mum griefing on her.

You may not like the mum's input into the story, but the impact of her actions on Shin and Hiromi are HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEE

[cloudninja]

Originally Posted by Grimkill7

Hiromi is a little twit who seeks to solve her issues in a non-confronting, passive-aggressive manner instead of tackling them head on. [sarcasm] It'll be fun to watch her dance around her feelings for the majority of the show. [/sarcasm]

It's funny that you describe Hiromi that way but is'nt Aiko guilty of much the same so far? You could use those same words to describe how she's handling Shinichiro and Nobuse. She has'nt made much progress on her own front as she has not exactly tackled her issues head on. And she's certainly dancing around her feelings as well.

Examples of non-confronting, passive-aggressive behavior instead of tackling issues head on:
She has'nt come close to confessing to Shinichiro and lets both Shin and Nobuse continue to think she is Nobuse's girlfriend.
Drops hints to Shinichiro but then negates them by saying "You're like a younger brother to me. Big sis will get worried if you look so down" in episode 4.
Advances her relationship with Nobuse by holding hands with him.
Agrees to knit a sweater for Nobuse but then possibly thinks of giving it to Shin. Will probably agonize over her feelings.

Not to mention that Hiromi has the added difficulty of being totally dependent on Shinichiro's parents for food and shelter. If she had close relatives who could take her in they would have already but she's stuck in this miserable situation.

[Grimkill7]

Aha! I was expecting that response. If you look closely, what she and Aiko are doing isn't really the same. Aiko has achieved resolution in her feelings. She is with Nobuse only to get closer to Shinichirou. This was hinted by Aiko herself. It IS wrong and someone will get hurt, but it's not exactly the same thing that Hiromi's doing. While Aiko is trying to get closer to Shinichirou through association, Hiromi is purposely distancing herself from him. The way she tries so hard to convince her friend that Jun is actually the one she likes. She's lying to her friend and herself. And when an opportunity finally arises to confess to Shin about her true relationship with Jun, she turns cold and throws him out of the room. Her behavior could be caused by the stepmother or it could be some other issue from her past, but until we see the true circumstances behind the way she acts I'll just keep my current stance towards her.

[felix]

Originally Posted by cloudninja

Hiromi's only flaw seems to be her inability to openly admit her feelings to Shinichiro but he can be accused of the same. Part of it has to do with having to live in Shin's household. She is dependent upon and accountable to Shin's parents. There might be something more on her side but probably nothing that can't be overcome. For both of them there is also the fear of rejection since they are unaware of the others' true feelings. However, I think both of them will get to the point where they don't care about the consequences of following their hearts.

Besides this is there anything wrong with Hiromi? She is otherwise close to the ideal.

Pretty, smart, athletic, popular, fun to be around when she's not holding herself back.

Then she holds herself back 99% of the time. If her attitude with Tomoyo is as happy as she gets... then she's way too cold for my licking * shivers
Besides Tomoyo, I haven't seen anyone else close to her, her team mates maybe but they don't seem close. There's no real indication she's all that popular either, she was in the middle of the attention when they were playing a episode or so back but that's not because she showed anything special in the game compared to the others..

The "she's the greatest but is just holding herself back..." is just so like a cliché in shounen series. If that's the case the current sad, gloomy Hiromi better die soon. If the series goes like this till the end and then suddenly Hiromi Awakens! * flash flash Hiromi Pwans all. I'm so going to call this show a piece crap.

She is not a habitual liar in general but is guilty of hiding her feelings for Shinichiro with the lie of liking #4 for which she regrets and will continue to pay for a while longer.

Isn't every opportunity lost and avoiding people also a way of lie-ing.
Is it really her being a liar the problem here. Everyone lies once in a while.
The real problem is her struggles with the truth. She can't even spare a hint.

Also, that lie was the result of seeing Shinichiro carrying Noe on his back to the basketball game so he bears some blame for that. The real problem is getting one of them to admit their feelings but once that happens is there any stopping them?

They don't seem to have that much chemistry when they talk to each other.
Should they stop staring all their previous fantasies may crumble as they find out they have nothing in common.

The angst and misery they face is the result of misunderstandings that are temporary obstacles in their path but once past that I see no major flaws that would make them miserable in a relationship. It's not like she's dishonest by nature.

Sounds like something a parent would say when (s)he makes a arranged marriage...

---

Originally Posted by Monir

I personally think the next episode will make or break this series. If the show is able to handle it well, then the series might need to be given a different genre tag…. something that can recognize an evolve form of the typical harem-type storytelling.

I so agree with your first idea. I've seen dozen of series that are just traps.
Start with some nice idea... build up a little, then leave you disappointed till the end.
* Cats thinks of Clannad; the shameless Kanon wannabe.

Unimaginative, but how about slice of love.
Oh and shows like Clannad should be renamed, like Vexx pointed out in one of his posts, to Harem Roundup.

Just kidding...

[arkon]

Originally Posted by Grimkill7

Aha! I was expecting that response. If you look closely, what she and Aiko are doing isn't really the same. Aiko has achieved resolution in her feelings. She is with Nobuse only to get closer to Shinichirou. This was hinted by Aiko herself. It IS wrong and someone will get hurt, but it's not exactly the same thing that Hiromi's doing. While Aiko is trying to get closer to Shinichirou through association, Hiromi is purposely distancing herself from him. The way she tries so hard to convince her friend that Jun is actually the one she likes. She's lying to her friend and herself. And when an opportunity finally arises to confess to Shin about her true relationship with Jun, she turns cold and throws him out of the room. Her behavior could be caused by the stepmother or it could be some other issue from her past, but until we see the true circumstances behind the way she acts I'll just keep my current stance towards her.

And Aiko hasn't been trying to tackle her issues in a non-confrontational roundabout way? And she's not lying to herself and Nobuse when she is with him, trying to convince herself that he is the one she likes rather than Shin?

I think the situations are very similar and it's funny how one is a twit whereas the other seems to get universal support. Not to mention that the "twit" would most probably be going through a hard time due to her situation. Lord knows how I would have coped with losing both my parents in a similar manner at that age. Thankfully I wasn't in a position to find out.

As for Shin I can understand why he doesn't pick up on her feelings. Aiko sends out mixed signals and of course is already in with his best friend which Shin obviously assumes to be a proper relationship and not just some flight of fancy cooked up by Aiko to get in Shin's good books. If I was in the same situation I'd be thinking she's already got someone she seems to like who happens to be my best friend (almost instantly off the radar at that point for me) so I'm probably just imagining things. Unless she outright told me, I wouldn't have picked up on it at all. After all we have the benefit of seeing all the looks, glances, embarrassed blushes etc... she throws at Shin which he doesn't always see. Then again I guess I'm an idiot too.

edit: damn, missed cloudninja's edit. Seems to have made much the same points I was trying to.

[grey_moon]

TBH I can't see how anyone can judge any character apart from Shin's mum badly. Hiromi and Aiko's situations right now are so vague. All we know really is that Hiromi is getting ridden on and might like Jun or Shin (or both), whilst with Aiko it is pretty obvious she likes Shin and her hints make it seem that she actually got together with Nobuse to get closer to Shin. Nothing right now is bad. It only becomes bad if it ends that way.

For example with Aiko if she continues with Nobuse and ends up hating him that would be bad wouldn't it, but if she grows to love him that would be good.

Or if Nobuse realises that Aiko actually like Shin and not himself and is selfless in his friendship and love and gets them together, that would be good wouldn't it? I would have thought that a Nobuse portrayed in that light deserves someone to love him for him, and not to get close to his best mate.

What I am trying to say is that there is far too little of the story to judge any of the 3 girls and the only person who is acting in a bad way no matter what excuse is given is Shin's mum.

[Grimkill7]

Ok fine, I concede. Both characters are incredibly passive-aggressive. That still doesn't change the fact that Hiromi has no idea what she really wants. I was just using her passive-aggressive behavior as an example of that. She is constantly running away from her own feelings, and what's worse is she is somehow trying to make it Shin's fault. She really didn't have any reason to get upset and turn cold in her room when she was the one who had created the misunderstanding in the first place. She should have come clean. Had it not been for my current dislike of Shin, I might have been upset after watching episode 5.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Grimkill7

Ok fine, I concede. Both characters are incredibly passive-aggressive. That still doesn't change the fact that Hiromi has no idea what she really wants. I was just using her passive-aggressive behavior as an example of that. She is constantly running away from her own feelings, and what's worse is she is somehow trying to make it Shin's fault. She really didn't have any reason to get upset and turn cold in her room when she was the one who had created the misunderstanding in the first place. She should have come clean. Had it not been for my current dislike of Shin, I might have been upset after watching episode 5.

With Hiromi, the aggressiveness of her nature could be totally cause by the duress being put on her by Shin's mum. For example since his mum told her that she cannot be seen with him outside of the house, she will have to try push him away. Normally when people are trying to act against their normal natures that is when they go to the extremes. The best example of this is the phrase "you got to watch out for the quiet ones.."

Personally I think that Hiromi is a Good Girl, but what can a person do when what ever she does the person in control of her life just treats her so badly? <- Self destruct...

[Grimkill7]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

With Hiromi, the aggressiveness of her nature could be totally cause by the duress being put on her by Shin's mum. For example since his mum told her that she cannot be seen with him outside of the house, she will have to try push him away. Normally when people are trying to act against their normal natures that is when they go to the extremes. The best example of this is the phrase "you got to watch out for the quiet ones.."

Personally I think that Hiromi is a Good Girl, but what can a person do when what ever she does the person in control of her life just treats her so badly? <- Self destruct...

Of course. I had stated in my previous post that Shin's mother was a likely cause of Hiromi's behavior. However, it would be foolish of me to jump the gun and assume this. Which is why I had more or less said that my opinion of Hiromi won't change until we see the whole picture. I don't hate Hiromi. Far from it. I just dislike her, and even my dislike of her is subject to change.

[cloudninja]

Originally Posted by Cats

Then she holds herself back 99% of the time. If her attitude with Tomoyo is as happy as she gets... then she's way too cold for my licking

Besides Tomoyo, I haven't seen anyone else close to her, her team mates maybe but they don't seem close. There's no real indication she's all that popular either, she was in the middle of the attention when they were playing a episode or so back but that's not because she showed anything special in the game compared to the others..

The "she's the greatest but is just holding herself back..." is just so like a cliché in shounen series. If that's the case the current sad, gloomy Hiromi better die soon. If the series goes like this till the end and then suddenly Hiromi Awakens! * flash flash Hiromi Pwans all. I'm so going to call this show a piece crap.

Isn't every opportunity lost and avoiding people also a way of lie-ing.
Is it really her being a liar the problem here. Everyone lies once in a while.
The real problem is her struggles with the truth. She can't even spare a hint.

They don't seem to have that much chemistry when they talk to each other.
Should they stop staring all their previous fantasies may crumble as they find out they have nothing in common.

Sounds like something a parent would say when (s)he makes a arranged marriage...

I think you are overlooking some important scenes and events that would disprove your assertions.

She held herself back most of the time with Shinichiro and at home, but not so much outside the house. As the first episode emphasizes, she was happily bantering and smiling with the other girls as they jogged in PE class to show how she acts once free of whatever represses her (at 5:45 mark). That was a scene to let us viewers know in contrast to how she acts with Shinichiro at this point or at home in general. We would probably get more similar school life scenes but this show is short on time and gives two thirds of the screen time to the other girls.

If you watch the first episode jogging scene (at 6:12) and the second episode basketball scene (19:24) you would notice that when Hiromi falls down all the girls nearby instantly gather around and express concern not only in words but with the expressions on their faces. So she is definitely on friendly terms and gets along well with both groups in order to receive that level of concern. They would'nt do that if she was distant and aloof with them as well.

I never said she was the greatest but she is well regarded by the other students. Nobuse himself made this observation "She's so nice, she really is like an honors student. And what's more, she is'nt arrogant. Is'nt she perfect?" As for you talking about her suddenly awakening at the end of the show, her awakening already started in episode 3 if not earlier but is more gradual rather than sudden. Starting with episode 3 she has made some progress in each episode. There was the episode 3 nighttime walk together to deliver the alcohol where she gave him a nice smile for the first time for not letting her walk alone. In episode 4 they shared a smile and laugh near the end to break the ice. In episode 5 Hiromi herself suggested a detour to the beach where she put her own scarf on him. So there's definitely been progress lately although Shin himself derails it by setting up Jun with Hiromi. With the beach event Hiromi was herself moving matters along and she did'nt want to bring up the subject of Jun again. When Shin does bring up Jun by himself she can't deny her lie because to do so would let Shin know too soon about Hiromi's true feelings and she could'nt let that happen at this time with the specter of Shin's mother looming over her.

So I guess the fact Hiromi suggested that they go to the beach and then proceeded to put her scarf on Shin does'nt qualify as a hint, and a rather large one at that? Hmmm. But she wasn't exactly avoiding him by doing so was she? It sure looked like she was taking an opportunity to get closer to Shinichiro. It's certainly a much more romantic encounter than Aiko has managed so far.

They definitely felt some chemistry with the episode 4 toothpaste incident and the episode 5 beach scene. After Hiromi puts the scarf on him, Shin says to himself "This is the second time. It's not a bad feeling." He may be referring to the connection he felt to Hiromi at those moments. Even if that reference was incorrect, he definitely "connected" with Hiromi during these two events. Hiromi herself seemed comfortable and relaxed enough to put her scarf on him instead of being stiff and aloof. I think she's already much more comfortable with Shinichiro than before as long as they're not in the house where she's afraid of Shin's mother.

I'll rephrase the last part to something simpler but longer. Their problem is that one of them needs to confess. If Shinichiro did it, Hiromi would probably reciprocate. Right now she does'nt know that he likes her and she has Shin's mother in her way. If Shin confessed then Hiromi would have less to worry about over the remaining obstacle of his mother. It would be harder for Hiromi to confess because she's in a more difficult situation but those other girls' chances would drop to 0 in an instant if she did.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by cloudninja

They definitely felt some chemistry with the episode 4 toothpaste incident and the episode 5 beach scene. After Hiromi puts the scarf on him, Shin says to himself "This is the second time. It's not a bad feeling." He's referring to the connection he felt to Hiromi at those moments. Hiromi herself seemed comfortable and relaxed enough to put her scarf on him instead of being stiff and aloof. I think she's already much more comfortable with Shinichiro than before as long as they're not in the house where she's afraid of Shin's mother.

Hmm good theory, but when I was watching it I thought he was referring to the second time a girl put their clothes on him....

[Grimkill7]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Hmm good theory, but when I was watching it I thought he was referring to the second time a girl put their clothes on him....

Yep. Noe's jacket. I kinda caught it easily since I watched episodes 4 and 5 back to back. I guess when Aiko puts Nobuse's sweater on him it'll make the third time?