2011-06-14, 15:27 | Link #22861 | ||
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By the way I'm not disagreeing with you, just springboarding. Quote:
So you have this hierarchy of knowledge where Maria had the charms, George and Shannon were intimately familiar with them, Jessica heard about them and was the one who knew Natsuhi had it, and Battler had heard about it. Why not any one of them? Moreover, the interviewer moved immediately to the assumption that a person needed a master key and needed to have seen the charm on the inside of the door (and thus open the door in the first place) to choose not to kill Natsuhi. Here we run into several problems:
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2011-06-14, 16:08 | Link #22862 | ||||
The True Culprit
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As for who replaced Natsuhi, my bet was that Shannon stepped in.
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2011-06-14, 17:10 | Link #22863 | ||||||||
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I just want to adress some of the things you brought up, because I don't know if it was the fault of my translation or if I just inserted my own interpretation....as well as giving some insight on original quotes.
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I still don't agree with him that he needed Vargilia for that. I always kinda disliked her for being there, especially she made us think way to hard about a person who is represented by Gaap. He later admits that there was no further purpose for Vargilia after that scene where she explains the catbox and logic puzzles and all...so why didn't he just make someone else explain it?! But it doesn't really pose a problem for the question how much he planned in advance. It's like what Ronove/Genji (don't remember which of both it was) says to Battler at the start of EP6: An unlimited number of gameboards can be constructed from the elements that Beatrice/Yasu gathered, but for them not to fall victim to a logic error they still have to follow a certain law of coherence with reality. Ryűkishi said he had the whole real-world story written at the start and then constructed all the Episodes around them. He also says he created many more tricks than he actually used. I actually believe him there, because it would have been a much bigger mess if he actually did make the story up as a whole while he went through it. Quote:
Basically what defeats Eva-Beatrice is not that Beatrice says that witches don't exist, I think she is calling on a logic error similar to what happened during EP6. EP3 in itself is a logic error because it is not in coherence with what follows: Battler surviving, Eva being in Kuwadorian at midnight, etc. Of course there are ways to make Yasu survive EP3 until the very end, which is included in my theory and explains both the Nanjô murder (who did nothing to help) and the rescue of Jessica by a Kanon she could not see but hear. I think Ryűkishi was really struggling with himself not to reveal everything and that is one of the few places he could actually pull himself together. Maybe because, if my theory would be correct, because KEIYA is assuming something totally different. Quote:
You might call this a very "Japanese" approach towards mystery solving, because it does not incorporate the classical orthodox mystery idea of: truth cleanses the people who survived from the evil of suspicion and codemns one true guilty culprit. But you have to remember that he also admits to read modern orthodox mysteries from Japan like Higashino Keigo or genre-rule breakers like An Offering to Nothingness. Spoiler for On Higashino Keigo:
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What he implied was, that he was hurt by so many critical voices on the internet claiming that his work Higurashi was just a matter of copy-paste and could have featured any kind of culprit and any kind of motive at the end...which he blames on the fact that many people just read a summary and never went through the game themselves. So he wanted to create a game where criticism can easily be discerned between those who got to the truth and those who just tried to cut short. He's not expecting everyone to like it (though he seems unjustly hurt by those who didn't ), but he wants his criticism to be at least founded on the fact that those people put some effort into understanding what he wanted to do. Quote:
When Battler is checking Shannon's corpse there is no problem, but once he starts looking deeper and deeper (which I actually saw as him looking into her wound at first), Rosa storms up to him, rips him away and says he should stop fooling around, leave the crime scene alone and wait for the police to arrive. If we assume that Rosa was an accomplice (which Ryűkishi bascially confirmed in the interview) she had every reason to knock Battler away (though I explained it before this interview by thinking Shannon might be alive somehow). Quote:
Imagine yourself being on an island where you cannot expose your true self, among people who are all selfish bastards who are ready to kill each other for money. The man you loved told you he'd come for you and take you away and then after 6 years of nothing he comes back and doesn't seem remember. Then there's this other man who you fell in love with, but he insists that he has to have children later on, not knowing that your body does not permit sexual relations. Now you are so desperate you want to make everything go to hell and conspire with someone in that crazy family to kill them all...only to find out in the end that man No.2 actually would have given up his dream for you...only now it doesn't matter because you're a murderer. I can imagine going crazy over that and murdering somebody. Quote:
So to be even more precise and even less grammatically correct: "The story of one single girl who, through love and madness, arrived as far as having the wild idea of an incident of such extent". It never says that Yasu actually murdered anybody and I think that is part of the truth we have to find. It's like Ryűkishi hinted...why does it become easier when you blame the witch? Who is the witch? Yasu! Her plan never was to kill them all, but because she knew of the hatred, the conspiracies, all those dark feelings within that family she expected the worst, that people would start murdering each other. But if it actually came to that she thought it would be better if everybody just straight went to the netherworld/the golden land and everybody left could blame her for all the sadness. What was it that Eva saw on the island that she wanted to protect Ange from? Probably a truth close to the Tea Party of EP7, a truth where her parents are coldblooded murderers (at least in that instance). Why did Battler create EP8 for Ange in the end? Because it protects her from that terrible truth BUT at the same time keeps the dignity of the woman who loved him so much. I am actually wondering wether the first twilight (in EP1, 2, 5 and 6) isn't a test by Yasu, who wanted to see if his accomplices played along or if they actually went around killing people. The tea party in EP7 shows how much fail-potential the family has...and in EP6 Erika goes around killing people too, "because it makes things safer and easier". Quote:
There is a pretty obvious scene during the first twilight I only noticed recently. When George asks about wether there is another corpse and who it is Hideyoshi has no problem answering. But when George asks about if there is a ring, Hideyoshi begins stuttering "AH...uhm...wait a minute I have to look" and then Kanon points at something and only then Hideyoshi reacts "Ah, yes...there is a ring" and when asked where it is he hesitates again and only after some seconds he answers that it is the ringfinger. I definitely have to reread EP5 when he is murdered while Natsuhi is in the closet, that might give some additional insight as well. Last edited by haguruma; 2011-06-14 at 17:24. |
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2011-06-14, 17:24 | Link #22864 |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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I feel like I'm starting to get more and more of what Ryu might be trying to say about the ''truth'' of this story, but it's sorta hard to like, explain it, but it seems to have nothing to do with ''what really happened'', or how the tricks are solved.
Episode 8 only strengthened the feeling in the beginning, and I look forward to seeing the endings to see if what I think is viable. Spoiler for Length:
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2011-06-14, 18:03 | Link #22865 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-06-14, 18:09 | Link #22866 | ||
別にいいけど
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Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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This becomes clear when Keia says that it's hard to imagine what actually happened in reality. Too bad they didn't really indulged on that point. So yeah it could still be that they were merely talking about the Yasu culprit in the stories, which was already clear. But with an almost complete lack of informations about the one single truth it's easier to think it's pretty close to what you can get from the fictional mystery. Still EP8 shove on our face a bright red truth about the fact that Eva's diary definitely contains the truth, and the screenshots that are shown when Ange reads it do not suggest at all that Shannon was the culprit. Ryuukishi doesn't really seem to have any intention of disclosing that truth in the end. Anyway Aura, you sure can weasel out the Yasu culprit theory, but at the same time you can no longer say that the Rudolf+Kyrie culprit theory is denied. Quote:
Ah BTW, you know if what Ryuukishi actually planned for "Land" was to introduce a character that was basically the male version of Erika, then of course we wouldn't have gotten Erika on Ep5. If that's true then I'm glad Land was never made.
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2011-06-14, 18:24 | Link #22867 |
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Well, assuming RK ain't just pissing in the wind, Eva probably wants to protect Ange from something that will hurt her. Although "<random family member> murdered the whole family" would probably hurt her in some way, you'd at least think it has something to do more specifically with a member of Ange's immediate family. Perhaps not all of them, but some.
Maybe love made Battler crazy.
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2011-06-14, 18:33 | Link #22868 |
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Yeah, its probably someone thats very close to her. Her reaction just wouldn't fit if it was one of the servants or nanjo or whatever.
And if we take what RK said about the possibility that the content caused her to renounce all forms of magic and fall into cynicism and suicide it probably was very shocking and unexpected. |
2011-06-14, 19:02 | Link #22870 | ||
The True Culprit
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@ Cronnoponno "Hachijo Ikuko" is the woman that Ange met and who is represented by Featherine.
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2011-06-14, 19:47 | Link #22871 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The problem here lies basically on the different purposes of the rules as they were intended by their authors and as they are used by Ryuukishi. They were intended as mystery novel guidelines and not as detective tools. "a servant cannot be the culprit" only makes sense as a mystery novel guideline, because you can't really be sure of someone's identity until the very end of the story. So just because one character was introduced as a servant it doesn't mean he can't possibly be the culprit. In the introduction of EP7 those guys of the court of the heavens weren't smart enough to realize it, and apparently Will took advantage of that. It was easy to dodge that red really, those guys just needed to say that there was probably more than met the eyes about that "maid". Anyway if we read between the lines of what Van Dine really meant it isn't that "the culprit can't be a servant" but more like "the culprit can't be a mere servant". So I don't think Dine would consider a violation of his rule the case of an important person that due to some circumstances finds herself in a humble position. In other words more than a matter of "role" and "status" it is a matter of social importance and it is all finalized to give the best narrative impact when the culprit is exposed. Van Dine well understood that "the culprit is the maid" is a lot less climatic than "the culprit is the mayor". But "the culprit is the maid who is actually the family head's secret child born from an illicit relationship who was selected as the sole heir of his vast wealth"... I think it's climatic enough... Other than this that red truth has no other purpose but screwing up with the readers and Ryuukishi basically admitted it. Quote:
I say this because Ikuko is definitely different from the Hachijou Touya of EP6, despite having the same appearance.
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2011-06-14, 19:56 | Link #22872 | ||
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But again, I wouldn't even really have a problem if Will had just used the rule by itself without any force of red, or if the application of the servant clause hadn't been so... tangential. Quote:
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2011-06-14, 20:40 | Link #22873 |
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Now that I'm not driven by mad Ryu anger, I can agree that Dine's rules were more like, as Captain Sparrow would say, "general guidelines."
...Still don't like the way Ryu played around them though. Screwing with readers for the purpose of screwing with readers is not really cool to me. One thing I never got is why he didn't just give detective rules a different color than red. It would work a bit better, where fairness and story are concerned. Hell, just having them be gold would make sense. |
2011-06-14, 21:11 | Link #22874 |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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The part that made me mad was the epitaph riddle.
Although I can't complain since this is Japanese after all, I was really disappointed that the riddle took a turn towards the left, then spiraled downward into a massive hole. First, Japanese character differences, I can understand that, but that screws over my ability to solve it, but that's more my fault. BOOM IT'S SUDDENLY INVOLVED WITH TAIWAN AND YOU START PULLING OUT LETTERS IN A CHURCH WHERE THE GROUND OPENS UP AND LEADS TO A PILE OF GOLD. |
2011-06-14, 21:41 | Link #22879 |
The True Culprit
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Also, Yasu wrote her as being two different people with a third illusionary ghost self. So that excuse doesn't fly. Disagree? Well "pieces can't act out of nature."
If Piece-Yasu has DID, the implication is that the person herself has the condition, or else this whole thing about writing veiled illusions to display the truth becomes even more nonsense than it already is.
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2011-06-14, 21:48 | Link #22880 |
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She was functionally 16 years old, give her a break. MPD isn't a horrible metaphor for getting her inner conflict down on paper.
The fantasy scenes were added by Tohya and Ikuko later, so illusory ghost Beatrice isn't really a counterargument.
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