Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by cloudii

So I watched the movie several hours ago, and I was wondering:

Where did we get the conclusion that the Law of Cycles isn't in effect anymore after Homura becomes Akuma Homura?

I'm pretty sure no one is saying that. People are discussing how the Law might function differently now, but no one is saying it's gone.

Originally Posted by cloudii

The flower scene really did it for me. Homura never realized (and I think none of us realized) that Madoka might not have been as happy as she seemed to be in her kami state.

Actually, if you rewatch the last interactions between Homura and Madoka in the TV series, Homura never accepts Madoka's sacrifice. She keeps questioning if Madoka is really OK with disappearing into nothingness.

The only time it looks as though Homura is satisfied is that scene in the city where she jumps from a building and pulls out her bow to fight some majuu. She says something like "I'll keep fighting for this world that Madoka wished to protect."

Also there's this. It's the unaired ED for episode 1 and 2 (released in the DVD version)

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Questions for discussion: Is Homura happy now? Is she satisfied? Can she sustain herself emotionally... forever?

I think we can have a better picture of Homura's true feelings by looking at scenes where she interacted with Madoka. In the TV series, she only really spilled the beans in the EP11 hug scene.

We should look at the flower fields and school hallway scenes in the movie to know how Homura really feels. She was on the verge of crying after hearing Madoka's answer to her "rules or desire" question. I think she feels terrible about what she did, and is very insecure. I notice that she was easily startled by noises in the post-credit scene, as if she was afraid that her karma would catch up with her.

[bhl88]

Spoiler for Homu theory:

"Homura probably got enough power to become Akuma Homura due to her original wish. The end of the series and this film never explained or mentioned anything that revolves around Homura's wish changing due to the new universe. If we take that into consideration, we can say that the original wish was still intact and couldn't be fulfilled due to Madoka removing herself from existence. It's a possibility that Homura's wish allowed her to split Madoka from her Goddess form and recreate the universe since it was the only way of redoing their meeting and protecting Madoka, thus explaining the ending with Madoka as a regular transfer student and Homura as the girl who befriends her.If that isn't it, it could be the whole "love" scenario. Homura kept on mentioning that it was love that drove her to that point. Her despair, throughout the series and at the end, was love; she basically was so fucked over by being a magical girl and failing so many times to fulfill her wish that love was her ultimate despair, and her despair caused her hope thus allowing her to become neither a witch nor magical girl. Or so I think. I apologize for this crack theory. The ending of this movie keeps on bugging me."

Original link:http://boards.4chan.org/a/res/98045264

[SPARTAN 119]

So I tried to watch this movie just recently, and every site I could find it on, the subtitles suddenly switched for English to Spanish in the middle of the movie. What the fuck!?

Does any one know what hell is going on?!

[blitz1/2]

Just finished the movie tonight. Damnit, at those last 5 min, I really thought God madoka would duke it against Akuma Homura in a epic magical battle, damnit Urobuchi!

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by SPARTAN 119

So I tried to watch this movie just recently, and every site I could find it on, the subtitles suddenly switched for English to Spanish in the middle of the movie. What the fuck!?

Does any one know what hell is going on?!

Try another version. I have a version with English subtitles and another with Chinese subtitles. Both versions are fine. Yeah, a quarter of the screen is missing, but that's the best we have until the BD release.

Just finished the movie tonight. Damnit, at those last 5 min, I really thought God madoka would duke it against Akuma Homura in a epic magical battle, damnit Urobuchi!

I doubt we'll ever see the two of them engage in actual, physical fights. If there is a sequel, it is only a matter of time before they confront each other. But I see it more as a war of words or resolve, rather than physical or magical fights. I just can't see them raising a finger against the other; they love each other too much. In EP1, no matter how determined Homura was in preventing contact between QB and Madoka, she never did anything beyond words when Madoka insisted in saving QB. In fact, EP10 showed that Homura's instinctive reaction when she knew that she was about to get into a confrontational situation with Madoka was to back off. She only stepped forward again when she remembered her promise to Madoka.

[Hakuromatsu]

Okay. The conclusion I've reached a couple days after seeing the film is that Madoka and Homura's wishes are mutually exclusive -- that is, I don't believe a world in which both Madoka and Homura's wishes are both fully realized is possible to construct.

Homura's wish, stated another way, is to reverse her and Madoka's roles; it's not just a wish to be Madoka's protector, but to be Madoka's protector instead of Madoka being hers (the symbolism of Madoka being the transfer student in Homura's World is pretty clear in this regard). Likewise, Madoka's wish isn't just to eradicate all witches in all of time and space, but to eradicate all witches in all of time and space with her own hands. Therefore, in Madoka's World, Madoka becomes the "protector" of every magical girl -- including Homura (and indeed, Madoka had every intention of whisking Homura away under the Law of Cycles before her Grief Seed filled). Homura's wish requires her to be the protector of Madoka, and Madoka's wish requires her to be the protector of Homura. That's tragic irony!

If that's true (which it may not be, since this is a series in which the laws of the universe can be rewritten to fix problems like these), it puts the opposition between Madoka Kami and Akuma Homura in perspective. Madoka and Homura's wishes are in opposition to each other, and magical girls are defined by their wishes -- a point that's reiterated several times over the series (Homura wished to reverse time and derives her power as a magical girl from time manipulation, Sayaka wished for healing and has above-normal regenerative powers, etc). So...it's almost as though Madoka Kami (Madoka given power as a magical girl through her wish to destroy all witches and acting in the continued pursuit of that wish) and Akuma Homura (Homura given even more power as a magical girl through her wish to be Madoka's protector and acting in the continued pursuit of that wish) are in direct opposition to each other. The God/Devil symbolism isn't arbitrary in the least.

You could even say that Akuma Homura, despite receiving her power via love rather than hope, hates Madoka Kami. Does that preclude Homura's deep love for Madoka herself? Absolutely not. In fact, it makes a whole lot of sense in light of Homura's revelation at the beginning of her Fourth Timeline -- that no one else needs to understand, that she'll defeat all witches (including Walpurgisnacht) on her own, and that "Madoka will not fight anymore." The full realization of Homura's wish is a world in which Madoka doesn't even become a magical girl in the first place (which Homura's World tries to emulate) -- that's the "one true exit" she's looking for at the end of episode 10. Homura doesn't love Madoka the magical girl (despite first becoming friends with her in that context), but Madoka the regular but oh-so-special girl who never sold her soul to fulfill a wish that, in Homura's eyes, Homura can fulfill herself. But Homura can't fulfill Madoka's wish; she can only repress it (as she very painfully did in the hallway scene at the end of the film). The futility of Homura's World is pretty damn tragic.

[Triple_R]

One could certainly argue that Homura used force against Madokami in this movie. Magical force, but force nonetheless.

Obviously, Homura would never use so much force against Madoka that it might actually kill her. That would defeat the whole purpose of why Homura is doing what she's doing.

Still, when two people have diametrically opposed goals, and words cannot resolve those differences, an actual fight is often inevitable. Let's not forget that Madoka herself killed Mami in Timeline 3. Yes, it was to save Homura, but it shows that Madoka is quite capable of using force, even against people she cares about, if she feels that circumstances warrants it. And Madokami may well feel that being held captive by Homura warrants using enough force to free herself, at least. And Homura may well feel that continuing this dreamworld for Madoka is worth a short fight against Madokami if necessary.

Even lovers can come to blows depending on circumstances. Ever watch the final season of Shakugan no Shana?


I don't think that Madokami vs. Akuma!Homura is inevitable, and its odds of happening might be less than even, but it wouldn't be that surprising. And at a meta-level, Madokmai vs. Akuma!Homura could be pretty tempting. A good writer/director combo could make something truly epic out of it.

[SPARTAN 119]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

One could certainly argue that Homura used force against Madokami in this movie. Magical force, but force nonetheless.

Obviously, Homura would never use so much force against Madoka that it might actually kill her. That would defeat the whole purpose of why Homura is doing what she's doing.

Still, when two people have diametrically opposed goals, and words cannot resolve those differences, an actual fight is often inevitable. Let's not forget that Madoka herself killed Mami in Timeline 3. Yes, it was to save Homura, but it shows that Madoka is quite capable of using force, even against people she cares about, if she feels that circumstances warrants it. And Madokami may well feel that being held captive by Homura warrants using enough force to free herself, at least. And Homura may well feel that continuing this dreamworld for Madoka is worth a short fight against Madokami if necessary.

Even lovers can come to blows depending on circumstances. Ever watch the final season of Shakugan no Shana?


I don't think that Madokami vs. Akuma!Homura is inevitable, and its odds of happening might be less than even, but it wouldn't be that surprising. And at a meta-level, Madokmai vs. Akuma!Homura could be pretty tempting. A good writer/director combo could make something truly epic out of it.

Haven't actually finished the movie, but I've was spoiled to the whole Akuma-Homu thing since before I attempted to watch it (and my attempts were spoiled by bizarre subtitle language switches).

Personally, I doubt Madokami or Akuma-Homu would actually kill each other. More likely, Homura comes to her senses in the end. Perhaps use their combined powers to fix the universe properly this time...

And then...

Madoka: Well, that's the whole Law of Cycles problem taken care of...

Homura: I can't help thinking were forgetting something....

Madoka: Now that you mention it... *gets out her bow while Homura gets out a rocket launcher (enhanced with her akuma powers)

Kyubey: Why are you looking at me?!

Homura: Wait a minute, should you give him the ability to feel pain first?

Madoka: Good idea, Homura-chan

Kyubey: Oh shit.....

[Tyabann]

This.
Fucking.
Movie.

That was a reversal and a half, let me tell you.
I loved the fuck out of it.

[Monoriu]

Rewatched the movie again.

Nagisa/Bebe gave hints that QB was behind the whole thing. She growled at QB during the group fight with Hitomi's nightmare. In addition, she actually said QB when Homura first interrogated her in Mami's apartment (not the subtitles, but the sound that she actually made). It isn't very clear, so Homura missed it.

The movie took pains to emphasize that Homura was no longer a magical girl at the end. All of her fingers were deliberately shown. She no longer possessed the magical girl ring or mark on her finger. So, I am not sure if her magical girl wish is still relevant because she is no longer one.

Haven't actually finished the movie, but I've was spoiled to the whole Akuma-Homu thing since before I attempted to watch it (and my attempts were spoiled by bizarre subtitle language switches).

Finish the movie first. I won't spoil you further. Suffice to say that there are...developments concerning QB.

Even lovers can come to blows depending on circumstances. Ever watch the final season of Shakugan no Shana?

Yeah I watched all the Shana episodes. A lot of lovers in fiction fight. What I am saying is, there are lovers, and there is Homura and Madoka. These two are just too gentle and sweet toward each other. A fight between Shana and Yuji is within their characters. But an actual physical fight between Homura and Madoka will be outside their characters, I think. Despite claiming to be the devil, Homura used a gentle hug and kind words to repress Madoka in the hallway.

And, even if the writers wanted them to fight, pretty sure some executives will put a stop to it. The sheer amount of Homura x Madoka merchandise showing the two of them hugging each other and blushing all the way will ensure that.

[Hakuromatsu]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

So, I am not sure if her magical girl wish is still relevant because she is no longer one.

For what purpose did she tear Madoka away into her own world, then?

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by Hakuromatsu

For what purpose did she tear Madoka away into her own world, then?

I make a distinction between Homura's specific magical girl wish when she contracted (I want to redo my meeting with Madoka. Instead of her protecting me, I want to protect her), and Homura's inherent desire to ensure Madoka's happiness. By the end of the movie, Homura is no longer a magical girl. But that doesn't really matter to her. Homura's desire to protect Madoka, to ensure that Madoka would not suffer the consequences of becoming a deity remain true regardless of whether she is a magical girl or not.

I am just thinking, I keep reading theories that Homura obtained her devil powers due to her original wish. But she ceased to be a magical girl some time ago, and clearly isn't one by the end of the movie. So I am not sure if her magical girl wish is still relevant, i.e. if it can still explain how she got her powers.

[Hakuromatsu]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

I make a distinction between Homura's specific magical girl wish when she contracted (I want to redo my meeting with Madoka. Instead of her protecting me, I want to protect her), and Homura's inherent desire to ensure Madoka's happiness. By the end of the movie, Homura is no longer a magical girl. But that doesn't really matter to her. Homura's desire to protect Madoka, to ensure that Madoka would not suffer the consequences of becoming a deity remain true regardless of whether she is a magical girl or not.

I am just thinking, I keep reading theories that Homura obtained her devil powers due to her original wish. But she ceased to be a magical girl some time ago, and clearly isn't one by the end of the movie. So I am not sure if her magical girl wish is still relevant, i.e. if it can still explain how she got her powers.

Huh! Interesting, interesting thoughts. I need to think about the ending from that angle.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Given her final words and her crying at the end of the movie, plus her specifically stating that she has plans for Kyubey and his kind, I'd argue that no, she's not satisfied, but she's not planning to sustain this scenario indefinitely. It's just Phase One in a bigger plan.

I really want to know what she's done to Kyuubei exactly, and what she needs him for.

Needing Kyuubei seems to indicate she has some kind of limitation.

Kyuubei has the power to grant wishes... that's the only thing I can think she'd want him for.

Originally Posted by Monoriu

I think we can have a better picture of Homura's true feelings by looking at scenes where she interacted with Madoka. In the TV series, she only really spilled the beans in the EP11 hug scene.

We should look at the flower fields and school hallway scenes in the movie to know how Homura really feels. She was on the verge of crying after hearing Madoka's answer to her "rules or desire" question. I think she feels terrible about what she did, and is very insecure. I notice that she was easily startled by noises in the post-credit scene, as if she was afraid that her karma would catch up with her.

I'm inclined to agree that Homura is uncertain as to whether she made the right choice, and I'm also inclined to agree that she's afraid that she can't sustain this situation.

She doesn't seem happy at all.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Let's not forget that Madoka herself killed Mami in Timeline 3.

Funny how Homura herself has, as far as we know, never killed anyone (except for Madoka herself at request).

Or did she kill someone in Oriko Magica? I don't remember.

In any case, Homura is much kinder than she gives herself credit for.

Originally Posted by Hakuromatsu

Likewise, Madoka's wish isn't just to eradicate all witches in all of time and space, but to eradicate all witches in all of time and space with her own hands.

Yeah, this "with her own hands" part would be the "piece" of the Law that was broken off. How the Law functions now that this piece is broken off is completely unknown.

Originally Posted by Hakuromatsu

Homura's wish requires her to be the protector of Madoka, and Madoka's wish requires her to be the protector of Homura. That's tragic irony!

If that's true (which it may not be, since this is a series in which the laws of the universe can be rewritten to fix problems like these), it puts the opposition between Madoka Kami and Akuma Homura in perspective. Madoka and Homura's wishes are in opposition to each other, and magical girls are defined by their wishes -- a point that's reiterated several times over the series (Homura wished to reverse time and derives her power as a magical girl from time manipulation, Sayaka wished for healing and has above-normal regenerative powers, etc).

Regarding how the girl's wish shapes her powers, it's not just true for Sayaka and Homura. It's apparently true for all magical girls.

As for Mami, this was written about her in a magazine interview:

In Mami's case, her wish "to connect to life" [editor's note: she wanted to live] gave her the power to "tie" and "combine" things together. That's why her power comes from the ribbon. By using the ribbon as a weapon, she can use that to produce guns that are useful in a battle. In ep3, Homura is stopped in her tracks by being tied up. That is her true magical power. She has the most experience so has a lot of different magical powers beyond those of her original powers.

"命をつなぐ" apparently was her wish. It literally means "connect to life", but in English would usually be translated as "continue to live". So that's how her wish to "live on" ==> ribbon powers.

How Kyouko's wish is related to her powers is explained in Madoka Magica: A Different Story, a manga spinoff.

Spoiler for it's not a big spoiler- this is revealed quite early:

It's revealed that Kyouko's signature power is actually charm/illusion magic. Wouldn't have guessed that from the anime right? But it makes sense given her wish.

What happened is that Kyouko unconsciously suppressed her charm magic after her father killed their family and himself. Kyouko's got more potential than we see in the anime: she's as strong as she is all without the use of her signature power.

But interestingly, if we applied this to the Homura/Madoka situation, it seems possible that their wishes/powers aren't so rigidly set.

Originally Posted by Monoriu

The movie took pains to emphasize that Homura was no longer a magical girl at the end. All of her fingers were deliberately shown. She no longer possessed the magical girl ring or mark on her finger. So, I am not sure if her magical girl wish is still relevant because she is no longer one.

She also chomped down on her own soul gem.

[Aquapunk]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm too lazy to go back and check: Madoka's wish dictates that all witches that did exist, do exist, and will exist are eliminated at the same time, just not in our sense of time. So I don't really see how Homura was able to do what she did, except maybe because of her wish. But even if that's true, why is Madoka so surprised when Homura does what was she does near the end? Madoka should be omniscient ("I see all the universes that could have been, and all the universes waiting to be born.") so she should've foreseen this coming, and warned Homu about Kyubey's plan long before he had the chance to trap her soul gem.

The only thing that would make sense to me is that Madoka wanted this to happen, for whatever reason. Which leads to why?

[RobotCat]

Originally Posted by Aquapunk

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm too lazy to go back and check: Madoka's wish dictates that all witches that did exist, do exist, and will exist are eliminated at the same time, just not in our sense of time. So I don't really see how Homura was able to do what she did, except maybe because of her wish. But even if that's true, why is Madoka so surprised when Homura does what was she does near the end? Madoka should be omniscient ("I see all the universes that could have been, and all the universes waiting to be born.") so she should've foreseen this coming, and warned Homu about Kyubey's plan long before he had the chance to trap her soul gem.

The only thing that would make sense to me is that Madoka wanted this to happen, for whatever reason. Which leads to why?

Dr. Manhattan exists simultaneously in the past, present, and future, yet was unable to know what Adrian Veidt was doing due to 'tachyons'. Kyubei's space tech could have something similar, considering they were able to create that barrier that prevented Madoka from doing her job normally. Or maybe Homura's ascension to Akuma just completely blocked out that area of space time to her. Ie, she knows something is wrong, but can't tell what.

Either that or like you said, maybe some part of Madoka actually wanted this to happen. That could be an internal conflict for Madoka in movie4/season2.

[AuraTwilight]

Akuma Homura isn't a witch. She's something else, so whatever went down at the end is outside of Madoka's jurisdiction.

[Aquapunk]

Okay, makes sense. That doesn't save that whole situation from feeling like an asspull (imo) though.

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by Aquapunk

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm too lazy to go back and check: Madoka's wish dictates that all witches that did exist, do exist, and will exist are eliminated at the same time, just not in our sense of time. So I don't really see how Homura was able to do what she did, except maybe because of her wish. But even if that's true, why is Madoka so surprised when Homura does what was she does near the end? Madoka should be omniscient ("I see all the universes that could have been, and all the universes waiting to be born.") so she should've foreseen this coming, and warned Homu about Kyubey's plan long before he had the chance to trap her soul gem.

The only thing that would make sense to me is that Madoka wanted this to happen, for whatever reason. Which leads to why?

Because she hasn't mastered the Second Magic. Maybe she could view the past and the future but not alternate universes.