2008-12-15, 13:36 | Link #1741 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Yeah, seriously, Ark, give it up. The guys making this stuff don't break out protractors and calculators to ensure that it's all done exactly to "realistic scale". They do stuff that looks cool (they hope), even if it means breaking the ostensible physical laws of their world. Believing that you can take the end result, perform calculations upon it, and divine speeds and tension strengths and the like is mistaken to begin with.
Frankly, it's a mockery of "suspension of disbelief". Admit for a little while that the conventions of the art form do not admit to the kind of rigorous analysis that you'd like to apply. If that means you can't come up with incontrovertible, definitive answers to certain technical questions, well, there you go. It's certain that you've put significantly more thought into the matter than the people who were working on the show. They might have access to a series bible, and it might have certain technical information (though almost certainly dealing with the various magic systems, and with an eye to keeping them visually consistent, not defining them in a technical sense.) But the sort of thing you're trying to take out of the visuals was never put into them in the first place! Maybe this is important technical data if you're trying to write Strikers fanfic. I dunno, I'll hold out hope for working on Strikers for real personally (low probability, Funi has their own in-house subtitlers. Then again, Nanoha was low-probability to start with...) Frankly, if you need technical data to work a certain way for your story, then define it that way! People might argue with your interpretation some, but nobody's pretending that you've deviated from a canon set of rules that everyone has access to. Sheesh. Could we, y'know, discuss the fun aspects of the series and lay off counting blippin' frames like they mattered? |
2008-12-15, 13:43 | Link #1742 |
Black Dragon
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: In the Netherrealm, thinking who to betray next...
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For sure, looking for physical laws on an anime/ comic/ animated movie or anithyng realted to ciencie fiction is ridiculous
I mean, how many people would care about that? How many people is looking forward to details like this on animated series or comics? The list would be long in that case, Dragon Ball, Superman, Iron Man, Gundam Wing, Evangelion, Astro Boy, even the Power Puff Girls Come on, those details are pointless
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2008-12-15, 13:45 | Link #1743 | |
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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If he likes it, fine by me. But expecting us to have to believe it?
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2008-12-15, 14:03 | Link #1744 | |
He Who Smites Shippers
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
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2008-12-15, 14:09 | Link #1745 |
Random Translator
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Brunswick
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... Jeez people, remember the ANIME laws of physics.
http://www.comicscommunity.com/board...24019&expand=1 This is becoming completely ridiculous. The purpose of the anime is to enjoy it!
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2008-12-15, 14:16 | Link #1746 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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*shrug* My take is simply that ark is SODing because Nanoha has a larger audience. He hasn't been pulling this with Strike Witches, which makes even less sense, because the Strike Witches fandom is very, very quiet.
Actually, when one looks at this, it's rather sad, really. Unable to enjoy anime because you're spending too much time analysing it. Now live action, that's a totally different kettle of fish. (I occasionally SOD The Unit and NCIS, though in both cases its more for random lulz, since both are set in the present and are pretty much operating on Earth rules. The Unit is about a Delta Force-like outfit (exec producer & technical advisor E. L. Haney was an early member of Delta and a Ranger Command Sergeant Major) while NCIS is about NCIS. ...I have a sudden urge to port the NCIS cast into the Nanoverse. Special Agent LJ Tibbs. Enforcer Lisa. Agents Tommy DiNardi & Timmy MacGregor. (Hey, McGee started it with porting the team into his books )
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2008-12-15, 14:23 | Link #1747 |
Σ(。д°(o--(ಠ益ಠ )
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hotsprings Resort
Age: 37
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Ya know, I've never once paid attention to these arguments of how far, how fast, and how strong, because they never really needs to be justified. I could care less the exact km/h speed of which the characters fly because I don't see the point. While it is true that some level of realism is needed to keep things from getting absolutely ridiculous, using mathematical calculations based on visual data doesn't really work here. Pixels, frame rates, they are all poor examples of scaling. Hell, math exams use it all the time: "this graph is not to scale."
I know what you may say. If it's not to scale, then why draw it like that? Because viewers would like to see it. If Nanoha really is flying supersonic speeds, it's going to be damn hard to see her fly by and catch all the details. Also, viewing angle and perspective can alter perception. That launch height data at first glance is rather silly to me, since the angle from which we view it IS NOT LEVEL. In other words, "lol physics." This is especially so when MAGICAL GIRLS are involved (emphasis on magical), because really, physics takes a back seat. The show's purpose is to entertain, and if it means violating some laws of physics (Look at the Metal Gear Solid Twin Snakes remake) to do so, then oh well. That's what Suspension of Disbelief is about. Spoiler for lol SoD:
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2008-12-15, 14:36 | Link #1748 |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Helo extraction at the end of Mission 1, Chapter 1 of Call of Duty 4. The blackhawk is painted Air Force Gray, has Royal Air Force markings and roundel, the pilot is a true-blue american, and in the pilot & copilot seats are 2 Russian Spetsnaz dudes with fur caps.
Or Mission 2, the air insertion: USMC does NOT use blackhawks. Or the Mk19 with unlimited ammo: the MK19 is not used as a side gun on the CH-46. Or the unlimited ammo of the AC-130U in Death From Above (in the mission before, there are only 4 survivors of the Blackhawk crash: Soap, Gaz, Nikolai & Price. In Death From Above, which starts minutes after the mission where Price calls in thunder from above, the merry party has expanded to eight people by sheer force of magic. Which is surprising considering that the SAS party was only 3 people and the Spetsnaz people weren't picked up by that Blackhawk). Does the player care? Fuck no; Death From Above is a Crowning Level of Awesome. The player suspends his disbelief, sits back, and plays. (And actual, serving military personnel who've played CoD4 have no problems suspending disbelief. Even AC-130 crewmen.)
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2008-12-15, 14:40 | Link #1749 |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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Just stop it Arkh, you are just making the "Rule of Cool" people's collective meatrod harder; now they can laugh at people trying to pour a bit of sense in their fanon or trying to find the middle ground between making sense and pouring cool in their works, because if they are doing it, "DEY MUSS B ST00PID!!!".
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2008-12-15, 14:42 | Link #1750 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
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2008-12-15, 14:52 | Link #1751 | |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Us in Cadia? We get to pick up the pieces.
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2008-12-15, 14:53 | Link #1752 |
He Who Smites Shippers
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
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Ark has been a lost case for as long as most of us can remember. Kero's the only one who really takes him seriously; him and Jimmy now, I guess. The rest of us mostly just ignore him and concentrate on having fun with this series instead of SoDomizing it.
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2008-12-15, 22:08 | Link #1753 | |
Secret Society BLANKET
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 3 times the passion of normal flamenco
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We go with believable, not realistic, because frankly how can you expect super realism in a series that has Magical in its title? Introduction of realism and justification in analysis only goes so far in a title where both aren't really high priorities in the presentation. Animation does not lend itself to the rigorous calculations that it seems to have been given here because animation is such an imperfect medium for showing reality, due to differences in animation style, technique, budget, creation, etc... But then again, animation is perfect for showing UNREALISTIC things because it is not bound by the limits that would make portrayal of said fantastic elements in a live-action film technically difficult and expensive. Hence in animation, you can't go in with a ruler and slide-rule and expect things to measure up exactly as they would in animation, because that's not what the animator's goal is. Many of the more memorable animation works both in the past and the present are those that don't adhere to such strict rules anyway (there's a reason Walt Disney dominated the animation market for decades now). This thread was created to attempt to make a semblance of sense into the Magic and Technology of the Nanoha series, which actually takes its portrayal of both elements more consistently and believably than your standard magical girl show. Still, there is a limit to the amount of hard calculation one can use on a franchise that uses fantastic elements before you run aground on the suspension of disbelief barrier, which results in an awful mess - like what just happened here. This is why in many arguments regarding technical matters in an animation work, reasonable believability within the bounds of the series' premise is more important than precision and realism. Besides, you can have all the technological realism you want and still be unbelievable: The James Bond series for example.
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2008-12-15, 22:20 | Link #1754 | |
Black Dragon
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: In the Netherrealm, thinking who to betray next...
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If we the fanfic creators would care about calculatrions and realistic in ou works, we should never present nothing lol I mean, just think abou this on the Nanoha series... mages who fly and have the power of a nuclear bomb in their hands... how realistic is that?
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2008-12-16, 04:53 | Link #1755 |
Sword Wielding Penguin
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Guys...
Horse. Boxing Glove. Coffin. Get the picture? It seems like every time we go through an analysis routine, it comes back to us like a boomberang from hell. Almost like every two months we come full circle. Sure, the topics are subjective and yeah, we have to apply logic as well as creative intent to get a balanced perspective. But drilling the same tired argument over and over again to someone who is NOT going to listen to it (because it's been tried for a year straight with absolutely NIL for results), is a waste of bandwidth. If you're going to take part in a technical discussion, expect some pretty hard core technical observations. Just take those observations with a grain of salt, put it in the backburner of Useless Geek Knowledge and think about it when formulating your final oppinion based on the Technical, the Logical, and the Intent. Because if I hear someone justify their counter-argument with "It's Anime! It's a show with the World MAGICAL in the title" ONE! MORE! TIME!... Understand? *twitch* |
2008-12-16, 05:20 | Link #1756 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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And first I'm not supposed to let them be prescient, and now they'll know Jail has inside information and plan on that basis? And how much inside information would Jail have on RF6 anyway - the members are specially picked, and not allied to Jail's nominal buddies Regius & HC, so getting agent intelligence seems a bit thin. Quote:
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I wonder whether I could have avoided the below sh*tst*rm if I lied and said the result of the analysis shows that Subaru can punch through 10m of armor. Oh well, if I did this to be popular, I'll have lied already, so let's wade in... Quote:
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Further, if you believe that, at least for the details, the author's intent is no deeper than to look cool, then the pro-author's intent people can hardly use it as an excuse to override an observation - there is no intent. Quote:
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For a bunch of supporters of this position, you guys sure are spending a lot of time on an technnical discussion thread. Quote:
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As for why MGLN, I think b/w my critics here you guys have hit the big reasons. It is actually relatively organized and thus analyzable. It has a population (and a SoDer knows that bouncing ideas off others is important), with a substantial fraction interested in discussing the mechanics of their world. And my laziness got molten thanks to Ep16-17 (like a lot of other people's). So, why not? Quote:
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Premises sound almost like a good idea until you remember how they are actually made. Since we can't read the author's brain (and in fact the author himself may have no firm thoughts about a particular matter), a premise as actually created is generally a mishmash of casual, subjective observation, guesses about author's intent, and personal prejudices and beliefs. Note that the only part that is actually from the show itself is observation, so observation is the father and superior to premise. Note also that a premise-SoDer has already used his judgment to create the premises, thus violating the injunction to suspend judgment! Yet the literary act like this premise, which is really but a very subjective conclusion, is superior to observation. So how SoD is a "Premise SoDer" being? Quote:
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2008-12-16, 05:42 | Link #1757 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Ark, nobody's attacking your data because they're worried about the implications. We just don't care to see the same kind of analysis again and again. If I go out to shoot pool with my friends, we don't bust out a level and a slide rule in between every shot, we just shoot pool! (And I say this talking about engineers, mind you...)
I don't mind playing with speculation about Nanoha-stuffen. It's fun, there's room for a bunch of theories, and it can be nice to come up with "well, if they were thinking this, it would work!" solutions. But taking them seriously is a mistake that I've learned better than to make; if you analyze these shows too deeply, you end up disappointed with the results. Why not in a non-mechanical context? Lots of people are buzzing about the idea that the prophecy of Carim's might not have referred to content in Strikers at all, but could be interpreted for "later than Strikers" stuff. (Kind of a classic trope, that.) I'd warn against over-parsing the lines, not just because they're fansubber lines (heh), but because even a professional translation isn't necessarily able to bring across subtleties... and nobody can help it if the Japanese were careless with their diction in the first place, especially if they wanted it to sound cool before worrying about possible sequel interpretations. ;p So you're not ticking people off by being vocal, you're ticking people off because the results you're getting are absurd and nobody wants to play that game anymore. You say "we've got to use the data we have." It is NOT DATA. It's not scientifically accurate. It's not a representation of reality from which you can take measurements. The animators take care to make sure that the characters look like they did in the previous scene and stay constant in relative size with each other, and frankly in Strikers they didn't even do a good job of THAT, right? |
2008-12-16, 06:40 | Link #1758 | |
Secret Society BLANKET
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 3 times the passion of normal flamenco
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2. Believability is simply being internally consistent enough that suspension of disbelief is more or less maintained, whereas realistic is to attempt to emulate non-fictional possibilities and events for use as story elements. You can try to be realistic and still be unbelievable, and vice versa. My own take on the terms btw. 3. It's only reliable data if the source itself is objective and experimentally verified to be consistent. And as has been proven in this thread again and again, animation itself is hardly an objective medium from which one can claim hard, precise data for an non-subjective analysis.
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2008-12-16, 07:35 | Link #1759 | ||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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This just has to go first.
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However, according to correlation, the latest blowup was due to this Subaru strength analysis. Never mind how I came to it, can you tell me which part of the conclusion offends people? I showed that Subaru can produce KE similar to a HMG bullet, momentum similar to a long burst of them put together. Even the strength is superhuman. That's hardly low praise. So what part of it was absurd? That a Cyborg (who still contains a fair bit of meaty parts after all) can't quite grind through steel according to the evidence given (and I already granted she might be able to punch through it?) As for the rest, they are mostly distances and speeds of entirely imaginary magical rounds, so I can't see how you can conclude my results were "absurd". There's the whole Jewel Seed thing ... but come on, that wasn't a matter of visual detail or whether they used a protractor or not. The contrast was quite stark. Quote:
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As for bloopers. Do they happen? Sure they do. But an analyst seeks to maximize his data pool. So he's not going to throw out a bathtub of water for a few mistakes. If data cannot be used if it is not 100.00% accurate, the entire field of history would be dead. Which is why I didn't bother to answer those guys who demanded that visual data is 100.00% accurate before it is used. Besides, for this particular issue, I don't think the base reliability of visuals are even at issue here. When Keroko proposed the scene for analysis, to prove his point, he automatically implies that the scene is can be assumed to be usable data. So the argument over this never even started. Same for any other fight where he proposes the scene and I cut it. Quote:
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Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-12-16 at 08:08. |
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2008-12-16, 09:27 | Link #1760 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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It may sound complicated, but it's more plausible than large-scale pseudomatter generation based on what's shown in the series. Quote:
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Yet, the way you calculate all these power values, distances and concrete strengths, you act as if you're assuming the visual data is 100% accurate and usable. That seems to be the only way we can consider your numbers to be in any way accurate. |
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