Fate/ Series Q&A

[Levani]

Yeah, I'll just ignore this and headcanon that Caster and Rider are real living heroic spirits, unless UBW anime tells me otherwise.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

There, CM3.

This makes no sense. Don't their backstories just become pure fabrications then because "they never happend" in any timeline in the multiverse? It would rather make more sense to say that the legends about them "created" another timeline where those mythical heroes actually existed, which would perfectly close that loose ending. Until it's denied that will be my headcanon.


Oh well what else to expect from Nasu's Unlimited Retcon Works.

[Levani]

Don't their backstories just become pure fabrications then because "they never happend" in any timeline in the multiverse?

This is my main issue.

[Rising Dragon]

I'm starting to see why my other friends have grown appalled with this franchise as it goes on. Doesn't this effectively make most Servants Wraiths? Even moreso than Sasaki. At least he was a real person in some form.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

This makes no sense. Don't their backstories just become pure fabrications then because "they never happend" in any timeline in the multiverse? It would rather make more sense to say that the legends about them "created" another timeline where those mythical heroes actually existed, which would perfectly close that loose ending. Until it's denied that will be my headcanon.


Oh well what else to expect from Nasu's Unlimited Retcon Works.

I don't see where the problem is. It only doesn't make sense to you because you like your headcanon more. Just because characters had backstories and memories from legends doesn't mean those legends actually happened. The part I posted already denied your headcanon, so you basically just want to do what Levani does and reject this. Some spirits are born from legends, created by humanity. That includes Medusa and Herakles.

And calling it a retcon is pretty ridiculous, when Rin already said in the Prologue that people's minds can create a Heroic Spirit. The spirit didn't have to actually exist in reality.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I'm starting to see why my other friends have grown appalled with this franchise as it goes on. Doesn't this effectively make most Servants Wraiths? Even moreso than Sasaki. At least he was a real person in some form.

I already explained the deal with Sasaki. The legend is too vague to be recorded and create a Heroic Spirit called Sasaki Kojirou. Sasaki Kojirou is a mosaic made of three clearly different people.

[Levani]

Medea's myth also has two endings, in one she kills her children, in another she doesn't, so why doesn't this qualify like Sasaki?

[chaos_alfa]

This does make the attitude of some characters towards the fictional heroic spirits a bit weird. For example how can Archer condemn Medea for her actions in her "past" if she never willingly made them. The actions she supposedly took, she only took because her the story says she took them. What I'm trying to say is fictional heroic spirits lack the agency to make any consensus action out of "free will", because they were never autonomous agents to begin with.

All their actions and experiences where created by the people who told and spread their stories rather than themselves.

Thinking about this issue makes me want Fate/Stay Night to have tackled this issue. It would have been fascinating to see characters struggle with this issue and their implications.

Originally Posted by Levani

Medea's myth also has two endings, in one she kills her children, in another she doesn't, so why doesn't this qualify like Sasaki?

It would apply to most legends if not all legends, because they also have multiple variations. I suppose the reason is because Sasaki story is much more fragmented and less congealed in the collective consciousness compared to Medea's.

[Levani]

For example how can Archer condemn Medea for her actions in her "past" if she never willingly made them.

Another issue. The VN doesn't say a single thing in defense of Medea saying that this plot was created for her and that in reality she had no part of it since just like the story, she was a fabrication. Yet Archer calls her a witch and basically blames her for crap that she didn't even do.

Caster herself doesn't take any issue in this and wants to go home, in other words, back into fiction. If she knew she was a fictional being, why would she want to go back to being not real and how come the fact that they aren't real doesn't bother these servants? Sasaki was somewhat bothered by this yet Medea, Medusa and Heracles don't give a crap.

What an annoying and an unnecessary detail, everything flows so much better if you just assume that they were real, living people once.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Levani

Medea's myth also has two endings, in one she kills her children, in another she doesn't, so why doesn't this qualify like Sasaki?

Apples and oranges. Medea's myth might have slight variations, but it's still essentially about the princess of Colchis who went with the argonauts, married Jason and was left behind by him eventually. The deal with Sasaki Kojirou is that he is a construct made of a man named Sasaki Kojirou, another man who wielded Monohoshizao and another man who was able to do the Swallow Reversal. These are three entirely different people, that's why this legend of Musashi Miyamoto's rival is too vague to be recorded. Such a Heroic Spirit doesn't exist.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Thinking about this issue makes me want Fate/Stay Night to have tackled this issue. It would have been fascinating to see characters struggle with this issue and their implications.

I haven't actually read it since I couldn't find a copy, but I think I've read somewhere that HA touched upon this aspect.

[Nayrael]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

I haven't actually read it since I couldn't find a copy, but I think I've read somewhere that HA touched upon this aspect.

It did not. I don't think this piece of lore even existed at the time FSN was written.

[Rising Dragon]

Basically, Nasu's still shooting himself in the foot with retcons that cause the entire narrative to collapse.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Basically, Nasu's still shooting himself in the foot with retcons that cause the entire narrative to collapse.

They are not retcons if the original material supports the idea, it is just that Nasu hasn't though the implication through when adding those elements to the story.

[Rising Dragon]

But as people have already pointed out concerning the answer, it really isn't supported by the original material, is it? What with Archer and others condemning Caster for actions that never actually happened. It would all stand better if they were all real people once, like Levani said.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

The part I posted already denied your headcanon, so you basically just want to do what Levani does and reject this. Some spirits are born from legends, created by humanity. That includes Medusa and Herakles.

It does not deny my headcanon. "Being born from beliefs" still applies to it, when those beliefs create a (or many) new timeline where the legend(s) actually happen(s). It does not contradict what the CM states, because the CM never mentioned that they were "born directly into the throne of heroes".

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

But as people have already pointed out concerning the answer, it really isn't supported by the original material, is it? What with Archer and others condemning Caster for actions that never actually happened. It would all stand better if they were all real people once, like Levani said.

The idea is supported by Fate/Stay Night, but only in some scenes. It is just not consistently supported by Fate/Stay Night as a whole. How much this matters is to be decided to each his own.

I would say therefore that saying that F/SN (totally) does not supports the idea to be technically incorrect.

[GreyZone]

Actually... CM3 only mentions Heracles and Medusa... no mention of Medea...

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Actually... CM3 only mentions Heracles and Medusa... no mention of Medea...

I'm not talking about any characters specifically I only refer to the idea that some Heroic Spirits who we though existed in the past of Fate/Stay Night, like for example Heracles and Medusa where actually fictional in the F/SN's world.

The material shown by Lorhand is the support I mentioned the idea has.

Meaning the implication the Fate/Stay Night universe has right now, it you are a proponent of the evidence is that a Heroic Spirits which appears in it doesn't automatically also have to have lived in the past of it, he/she can also be a fictional character in it.

I'm not totally for this idea, because only a small part of the visual novel seems to support the idea and it is less cool if some characters didn't exist. I do like the implications of the idea at least and I think it is an interesting idea to think about.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Basically, Nasu's still shooting himself in the foot with retcons that cause the entire narrative to collapse.

It's nice to see how you keep babbling retcon, when, again, it's stated since the Prologue that there are the kind of heroic spirits who were only known in the stories and didn't actually exist. The Heroic Spirit concept is simple. There are three kinds of them. Those who really existed, those from legends, and those who weren't worshipped but rather made a contract. This is something that was clarified in side material, and side material was a bonus from 2004, which was included when you bought FSN. If that doesn't float with your own interpretation, then I am sorry, but that is your problem.

The heroic spirits are real. Even if some never actually existed in the world, they existed in the minds of the people and that gave them form. They are born from legends, the events of the legends become their past. It's just the events didn't actually happen. They won't question that, why should they? There is no contradiction. It's different with Assassin, who is completely aware he just contributes to the false legend of Sasaki Kojirou and fills in Sasaki Kojirou's spot in the 5th Grail War.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

It's nice to see how you keep babbling retcon, when, again, it's stated since the Prologue that there are the kind of heroic spirits who were only known in the stories and didn't actually exist. The Heroic Spirit concept is simple. There are three kinds of them. Those who really existed, those from legends, and those who weren't worshipped but rather made a contract. This is something that was clarified in side material, and side material was a bonus from 2004, which was included when you bought FSN. If that doesn't float with your own interpretation, then I am sorry, but that is your problem.

The heroic spirits are real. Even if some never actually existed in the world, they existed in the minds of the people and that gave them form. They are born from legends, the events of the legends become their past. It's just the events didn't actually happen. They won't question that, why should they? There is no contradiction. It's different with Assassin, who is completely aware he just contributes to the false legend of Sasaki Kojirou and fills in Sasaki Kojirou's spot in the 5th Grail War.

That makes me wonder did Medea want to summons specifically Sasaki Kojirou or was any Assassin servant alright?