2008-02-07, 12:33 | Link #21 | |||
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1. Celestial Being exposes themselves as hypocrites; ensuring a reduction of public support. 2. It gives the power blocs a very good excuse for taking extreme measures when they become convenient. 3. It drives a wedge between Celestial Being's idealists and hawks. Quote:
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2008-02-07, 14:09 | Link #22 | |
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Oh I forgot. To asume CBs strategies is kind of difficult because we still donīt know the goal they really wish to achieve, but in the case of the first gundam group, I think I would continue to invervene as always but definitely make better strategies to aviod the gundams being capture (although with the appereance of the thrones capturing a gundam is know more difficult). First I would do something about Alleluyah and that headache an change of personality of his. It would be smarter than taking the chance that the Kyrios gets captured by the HRL just because Hallelujah gets bored. Also, the gundam meisters need some training. They would be totally owned if the other aces and some grunts had weapons that at least did some damage to the gundams. Thats another thing I dont understand. Supposedly, the flags, realdos, etc... are made from E-carbon and so do the gundams. Its understandable that the gundams do some serious damage to those units because they have beam weapons, but in the case of the grunt units and even the aces units, the only weapon that seems to be able do damage a gundam are just plasma daggers and carbon blades. The strange thing is that range weapons such as rifles, missile launchers and so are only able to do some scratches to the gundams. I think this is just strange unless the gundams are shielded with more e-carbon than any of the superpowers mobile suits. |
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2008-02-07, 15:11 | Link #23 | |
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The meisters have been trained. What they lack is actual experience of real fights. This is what they're getting now. But because of the overwhelming advantage they've had so far, there hasn't been anything to push their skills and increase it. The potential is obviously there, but they don't have the experience yet. The general thought is the GN particles help strengthen the armour further than what is normal.
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2008-02-07, 18:07 | Link #24 | ||
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Plus, engineering would make it rather silly to lose the entire system if only one power broke down. |
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2008-02-07, 18:17 | Link #25 | |
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But just like bulletproof vests, knives [carbon blades, plasma daggers] work on them because unlike non-melee weapons, they have two forces that work for them: The penetrating force, and the follow-up force. That is the most likely explanation as to why melee weapons would work on the Gundams. As well as Sergei's version of the Shining Finger. It's a different type of damage delivery.
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2008-02-07, 19:18 | Link #26 |
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If I was in charge of one of the nations in the Gundam 00 universe, I would most likely cease all conflicts and pay lip service to Celestial Being meanwhile developing units to rival a Gundam.
Celestial Beings weakness is their reliance on Ptolmaios, during an armed intervention if a nation attacked Ptolmaios the Gundams would be in trouble. It takes more effort to capture than to kill, the nations should focus on destroying the Gundams and then research whatevers left, which reminds me of the Nadleeh battle: with all the discarded parts floating around nobody from HRL had the sense to take a part? Skillwise the Gundam pilots are weak as they can be matched by others who don't have the luxury of a Gundam such as the custom flags, custom tieren and the custom enact, and as a character said before Setsuna relies on the abilities of the Gundam too much.
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2008-02-07, 19:53 | Link #27 | ||||
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There are reasons for conflicts, you know. They aren't just something people do for the heck of it. Quote:
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As for the Nadleeh, it might have something to do with how Sergei made a hasty retreat after Tieria killed all but three of his force, and that the Ptolemy came by soon after. Quote:
As for Setsuna relying too much on his suit, it's funny to hear that as a dismissal when people like Sergei or Graham are held up as examples of excellence. Sergei's strategy for crushing the Exia's head was ENTIRELY dependent on the Exia not being able to cut off the Tieren's arm (which, if that's not relying on the machine I don't know what is), while Graham's entire basis for support has been "give me a super-fast machine with a bigger gun." Graham's survival has more than once been due to the speed and manuverability of the Custom Flag alone, not his "skill." Ali is the only pilot who can credibly claim to rely on skill more than machine AND skill. |
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2008-02-07, 23:33 | Link #28 | |
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With Graham, I can sort of agree, since Gundams are in some ways weak against fast and maneuverable machines, but even then, these machines are still inferior overall to the Gundams. With Ali, he can read ahead on Setsuna's movements which makes him a bad matchup against Setsuna from the beginning. And again, the Enact is a fast unit, which Gundams are also sort of weak against. The logic that comes with this (claiming their excellence) is if these pilots were given comparable units to the Gundams, they would outmaneuver the Meisters much more easily, given that they train in them. Sergei, Graham, and Ali can owe their piloting skills to their vast battle experiences. They will not lose their experience and the skills that they've acquired. That is their one-up on the Meisters. Hell, Sergei avoided the GN Fangs in a Tieren and lasted for some time before being downed. And a Tieren doesn't have anywhere near the ability of either the Taozi or the Custom Flag and Enacts.
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2008-02-08, 00:08 | Link #29 | ||||||
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2008-02-08, 00:36 | Link #30 | |||||
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Exia, a machine with greater maneuverability than the Tieren, was outmaneuvered by said machine and overwhelmed until the secret trump card, the beam saber. Sergei had NO knowledge of the Exia's abilities. Setsuna had knowledge of Tierens. Looking at this, Sergei calculated everything on the spot through reaction. Setsuna was forced to react with something Sergei did not expect. That is more brute force than what Sergei did. Basic principle, Sergei outmaneuvered an advanced machine with an inferior one. Setsuna didn't outmaneuver, he bruteforced his way out with what was basically a trump card. Had Setsuna been in a Tieren, WITHOUT the advantages of a Gundam, or if Sergei was in a Gundam Exia himself, Sergei would STILL outmaneuver Setsuna. He just has too much battle wit not to. Quote:
Look at the battles. Virtue only blew up the Enacts because the AEU didn't have enough data on the Virtue. Look at what happened to Virtue against the Space Tierens when Sergei knew about the Virtue's weakness. It got messed up. Lockon hasn't shot down a Custom Flag that is moving at fast speeds. Downed by kamikaze Hellions. Setsuna has been outmaneuvered by Hellions in ep 1 and was needed to have him be saved by Lockon from nowhere. Kyrios was downed by kamikaze Hellions. Not fast enough to evade them when they get in range. They've only been death against said units from afar, but when these high-speed units get in close, they are far more a hassle to fight. Against Exia, they only need to stay away. Setsuna has bad aim. Quote:
And Hal, while dangerous, has only shown bloodlust and has h4xx on Soma because he can read her moves ahead, not because of any actual ability on his own. Lockon's skill for sniping is unparalleled, but in no ways almighty. Quote:
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Last edited by Nanaya; 2008-02-08 at 00:47. |
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2008-02-08, 01:35 | Link #31 |
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sorry to butt in on the discussion, but I was under the impression that the reason Sergei managed to block Setsuna's carbon blade with his arm was because it got jammed in between the joints of the arm? Which is kind of ridiculous really, in terms of the amount of skill that would be needed to pull off something like that on purpose.
Just like melee weapons seem to have been portrayed as the only weapons that might damage a gundam, I see no reason to assume that a mere tieren could tank a hit from a melee weapon either. So my impression of that battle was that not only was Sergei not relying on his machine for victory, he actually improvised an extremely unlikely and situational defense on the spot. |
2008-02-08, 02:51 | Link #32 | |
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And yes, Sergei did rely on his machine, but said machine is still inferior to the Exia. What Sergei used the most was experience, piloting reaction time and skill to get to that point where he was about to rip of Exia's head. Even if people say Sergei used his machine to its utmost and relied on it, it doesn't change the fact that it's still way below the level of a Gundam. Specs alone, the Gundam defeats the Tieren way more easily than it would a Flag.
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2008-02-08, 08:14 | Link #33 |
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I think the Factions have managed to do everything reasonably possible against Celestial Being, with one notable exception which I'll get into later.
The problem with an entity like Celestial Being is that they always have the initiative. They don't have a terroritory to defend, they don't have a people to protect, they don't have any diplomatic channels, they don't have an economy or any international interests. They're secretive and space-based, with the apparent ability to know your every move due to being able to subvert our computer security systems and having numerous and unknown accomplices and informants spread throughout the world. What we know so far is that they've got one ship that we managed to track down only after a number of extremely unlikely occurences took place. Namely choosing the right orbital path on the first try, their chief strategist being a stupid bimbo, and their computer analyst deciding to take an early lunch. An offensive is essentionally a pipe dream due to the nature of Celestial Being. We can't track them, we can't find them, and we can't destroy them. We're nearly one hundred percent dependent upon Celestial Being making a mistake, which is fortunately one of things they're really good at. Closing the technological gap is apparently impossible at this point, since the Gundams' technology is derived from a unique property of the planet Jupiter. That being the case, capturing a Gundam would yield no short benefits other than no longer having to worry about that particular unit. It'd take years to reverse engineer the technology and probably another decade to manufacture a working MS. It is/was possible to bait them into a trap, but the effort was a failure and was 100% dependent upon Celestial Being taking the obvious bait and then proceeding to exhaust the pilots, while keeping the Gundams at arm's length with artillery fire and high altitude bombing. Destroying the Gundams with conventional forces (no matter who is piloting them), regardless of their number, may be impossible, and deploying WMDs into space is something of a can of worms... Pretty much the one thing that the Factions haven't seemed to consider is the fact that the Gundams have never been observed flying into space, yet they manage to get up there somehow. The fact that it's been close to a year into the storyline and it's never occured to anyone that they might be using the Elevators to get Gundams into space is really, really farfetched. Pending a traitor/double agent, or an extraordinary stroke of luck, the Factions will never be able to defeat Celestial Being, no matter what they do. The one glimmer of hope they have is the fact that Celestial Being is full of idiots, who are very stupid and arrogant. |
2008-02-08, 09:37 | Link #34 |
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Minor correction: It's not that the Gundams themselves can only be made in Jupiter, but that the Solar Furnaces, the power source and source of GN particles, can only be made in Jupiter. Presumebly, since we now have the mysterious Thrones. Getting a gundam, though, would be decades worth of armor inovation, structural soundess, and a chance to analyze GN particles in-mass.
Similarly, the use of the Towers is something of a story-set limiter. The Powers do have security checks, it's just that those are near-useless with CB's current operation method. Personally, I think you were being too harsh on Sumeragi. She has a proven record of analysis, and she even derived Sergei's entire plan and its implications within moments of it being revealed. It's just that she had no means to recall Tieria or Allelujah. It wasn't even a bad plan she made, just one that Sergei had a pre-planned counter for. Considering how Sumeragi's failed operations are a grand total of three at this point (one in the Union, the Space Capture incident, and the battle in the desert, though that was more of the Meisters being unable to follow the plan and any of its contingencies), calling her a bimbo is a bit overstating things. |
2008-02-08, 09:48 | Link #35 | ||||||
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True, but isn't reading someones movements (especially a high mobility unit) actually his ability??? I doubt he can read Soma's thoughts. |
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2008-02-08, 13:19 | Link #37 | |||
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It's simply convinent for the story. No one in real life wouldn't have thought about checking the Elevators, especially after months of seeing the Gundams going back and forth between space. It's one of the story's most glaring plotholes and it can't be explained short of PIS. Quote:
She takes things for granted. Her job isn't even that hard, yet she's always acting like she's overworked and depressed. She even had the gaul to be relieved when the Meisters weren't defeated in ep. 15. She's in the wrong line of work and the only thing I like about her character is her body. |
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2008-02-08, 13:28 | Link #38 |
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You make it sound like she knew that the HRL had released hundreds/thousands of communication devices before the Ptolemy picked it up. She didn't, therefore she had no way of knowing they were trying to track them.
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2008-02-08, 13:50 | Link #39 | |
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The kind of operation Sergei set up, it would have taken weeks to get it all together. Plenty of time for Sumeragi to take notice of it. |
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