2007-09-20, 20:12 | Link #161 |
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If you're looking for a historical parallel, look at tank development.
Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate are tanks. They're effectively invulnerable to the run-of-the-mill enemy forces. They can swat the hell out of large numbers of inferior enemies. They are highly mobile and can be adapted to shock tactics. Even relatively powerful enemy units aren't capable of stopping them. The presence of a small number of them can turn an otherwise-deadlocked battle decisively. They're only available in limited numbers and you don't know how to mass-produce them (yet!) The TSAB can take one lesson from this encounter and become Germany (though hopefully without the pogroms and other associated unpleasantness, huh) or it can take the other lesson and become France. There are positive things that the TSAB can and should take away from the encounter. The first, obviously, should be an increased emphasis on recruiting efforts. An elite mage is worth much, much more than one of normal strength; securing the services and loyalty of people with the potential to become those mages should be the absolute number one priority of TSAB recruiting (not only does it improve their strength, but it also denies them to a potential enemy... not that we've seen any of those in Nanoha.) We know they're not common, but they're not fantastically rare either - Nanoha and Hayate were practically neighbors, after all. It wouldn't kill the TSAB to put in a few recruiting stations and run around shouting "Hey, can anybody hear me?!" at the top of their psychic lungs, and it just might pay off big-time down the road. (Hell, their capital just got saved because Yuuno bothered to shout for help ten years ago!) Second, their whole training system needs reworking. Tea only ranks a B - theoretically EVERY mage in the aerial corps has more power than she does. Yet she took on three Numbers and a pack of drones and came out the victor! Criminy, if a few months of training with Nanoha can make a little girl able to do that, what could they do instituting similar training with people who had high talent in the first place? Or rather, what the hell are they doing wrong, when a rookie with moderate talent and a stiff training regimen can down a threat that dozens of highly-talented and well-equipped mages can't? (Then again, are they well-equipped? Maybe the TSAB is a lot more corrupt than we know?) Finally, one thing occurred to me. HOW THE HELL did they not know where Jail was? Okay, okay, subterranean base, only a few Numbers, I can believe that. But he's got a friggin' army of drones there. Not just a few, but literally hundreds and thousands, enough where he can throw away dozens of them again and again. Forget the lil' Jewel Seeds inside them, where's he getting the metal? He'd need a huge logistical train to have managed to manufacture that many of the suckers. Wouldn't THAT have been easy to track? |
2007-09-20, 20:45 | Link #162 | ||
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That is strange. I can't really think of any police forces that are expected or have the ability to contest air superiority, protect sea lanes or perform amphibious assaults on bases in the middle of the ocean.
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Have you thought of the legal, moral and strategic implications of relying only on police forces for foreign policy? Spoiler:
Now, back to this: The exact nature of RF6's training is a red herring. The fundamental problem is whatever they have been training for, that training hasn't enabled them to do perform any missions effectively nor has it developed capable leaders. Quote:
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Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-09-20 at 21:20. |
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2007-09-20, 21:35 | Link #163 | ||||||
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2007-09-20, 23:07 | Link #165 | ||
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1) It is not clear whether there are significant worlds known to the TSAB that are outside its jurisdiction. There is no evidence of an enemy bloc or any such thing. 2) Technically, if you have a military and you do most of the stuff you just put in your list in another world without their approval, it is called an Act of War. 3) You shouldn't be too hung up on Terran words like "Police". It is an approximate analogue - their definition are somewhat different from ours (for example, whatever you use to describe the TSAB must allow for the canon fact that they do clandestinely operate in unadministered worlds like Earth). If they were really police in our sense, they won't even be doing firefighting, nor would they be doing nature conservation and research in out of the way uninahbited worlds. 4) If they are military, on the other hand, then they aren't supposed to operate inside TSAB "territory". Typically, matters inside such as catching criminals is the responsiblility of the police, or paramilitary forces from a "Interior Ministry" equivalent, not the full blown army. 5) The best way to describe the TSAB is paramilitary. They are the police, firefighters, military, and the nature conservation / exploration corps, yet they are none of these at the same time. |
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2007-09-20, 23:48 | Link #166 | |||||
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However if you care about your citizens then you do what you need to do. There are a lot of examples of hostage rescue of citizens from neutral or hostile countries like Operation Thunderbolt in Entebbe and Lufthansa 181 in Mogadishu. They were carried out by elite light infantry units of the kind whose training BBM disagrees with. I have no idea how he plans to skip light infantry training to training for raids when those raids need operators who excel at light infantry skill sets. Specializing in raids is the exact opposite of a panacea when a unit already has inadequate training. Quote:
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Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-09-21 at 00:01. |
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2007-09-21, 00:14 | Link #167 | |
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2007-09-21, 02:12 | Link #168 | |
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For TSAB the universe is a country, and each world a city. And the Ships are swat cars. The only people not a part of TSAB are primitives that live in the forrest unaware of any other people. |
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2007-09-21, 02:16 | Link #169 | |
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True
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2007-09-21, 02:50 | Link #170 | |
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In other words, they have poor training and equipment. |
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2007-09-21, 10:24 | Link #172 |
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In other words, they had been lucky all these years, or maybe they had horribly low standards for success - even counting that the 97th is unadministered and nearly unknown to the Midchildran voting population, resorting to blasting over 100 million sentients tells you how low the standard of "success" is in their dictionary.
I bet StrikerS would have been called a success as well, despite the proportion of city dismantled and how close to utter disaster it all is. And whatever happened to Eternal Readiness or striving for self-improvement in peacetime! |
2007-09-22, 10:30 | Link #173 | ||
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Let's get back to more interesting discussion:
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2007-09-22, 22:07 | Link #174 | |||||||
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To be fair, Regius and the High Council had the right idea - they are probably never going to recruit enough elite mages, so making them or close equivalents is the only way. Imagine companies of sentoukijin with a human leader (though the way the TSAB is going, the sentoukijin are likely better at tactics than most of TSAB's officers). Their mistake was keeping Scarlietti around for too long. As for ammorality, what ammorality? Is it more ammoral than sending Cs and Ds to die in droves on the battlefield to superior enemies? Quote:
These guys are Bs, yes, but that's a reflection of their low magical potential. In fighting talent, they may be top class. They are literally the cream of the Bs, and in certain circumstances, that may be their edge against a mediocre A or even AA that relies on his power. (Disclaimer: All identifications of "cream" and "mediocre" are by TSAB standards) Could their training be improved, though? Definitely. It was frankly pathetic to see those aerial mages jerking as they shoot in midair. Quote:
He should still have been discovered the moment he started to use his "radio", though. He was transmitting in a mountain! |
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2007-09-23, 17:00 | Link #175 | ||||||||
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After the Cradle battle, should have a basis to start working on tactical operational doctrine at the operational level. The TSAB can't develop appropriate doctrine and training from its experiences if it keeps drawing its conclusions first and then selectively looking over the evidence to justify them. Its theories are useless without sufficient testing and revision to match its observations. First the TSAB needs to take the study of tactics seriously. It needs to have a central body responsible for both doctrine and training and it needs to have authority to match. If one already exists, it needs to be trashed because it is worse than useless. The Reichswehr equivalent had its own section within the new Truppenamnt (General Staff in everything but name, established in 1919) which included a T-2, the Organization Section responsible for drafting organization and equipment tables and T-4, the Training Section, responsible for supervising training throughout the army. Quote:
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After those studies were completed, there was still much work to be done, Quote:
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Did Teana turn out well because of or in spite of Nanoha? Four is a small sample size to work with to judge Nanoha's effectiveness as an instructor but the failures do begin to add up. From what we've seen of the Forwards in combat, the TSAB's training standards must be particularly low or Nanoha may not be such a great instructor. Quote:
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It seems like we can draw a couple more conclusions from episode 26. The TSAB makes uses its manpower oddly. Just look at Alto and Vice. From what we've seen, Alto is the better pilot yet she was used as an easily replaced communications officer. Vice is the best sniper in the unit but instead of giving him psychological counseling, they used him as an average pilot. We also have more evidence WRT the TSAB Navy now. The primary role of the TSAB Navy during the Cradle battle was to destroy the Cradle. There was never any question of it transporting additional mages to engage the Cradle. They never even planned to send Chrono in as a mage. The fleet was to destroy the Cradle regardless of whether the mages had "won" or not and that is exactly what it did in episode 26. The maximum effective range of the weapons the ships used to engage the Cradle is unclear but at least six ships were equipped with them and their firepower was more than adequate to destroy the Cradle in a single volley despite all of the AMF.
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Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-09-23 at 17:46. |
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2007-09-23, 18:56 | Link #176 | |
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2007-09-23, 19:43 | Link #177 | ||
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More importantly it does nothing to answer this, Quote:
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2007-09-23, 20:48 | Link #178 |
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One thing the Germans had to their advantage was the 200 years of proven battle knowledge to ground their combat thinking and analysis, while the TSAB has who knows what behind it. The Prussian Staff system first arouse due to the near annihilation of the Prussian forces during Jena and its aftermath, which necessitated the total reconstitution of the Prussian Army. They were very fortunate to have military reformers such as Scharnhorst and Gneisenau to oversee changes, but the closest person to that I can think of in the TSAB is Chrono.
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2007-09-24, 00:50 | Link #179 |
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There's Seasons 1 and 2. You might notice that Asura had to be specially outfitted with the Arcenciel in response to a clear threat. Even with Chrono's fleet, according to you, there were only 6 ships seen firing (I'd check Ep26 tonight for myself when I get home). IIRC, there were more than 6 ships in Chrono's fleet, so this means that not every ship was armed.
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2007-09-24, 02:06 | Link #180 | ||
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