To Aru Majutsu no Index LN - New Testament Volume 15 Discussion / Poll

[Kuroageha]

Read Kuro no Maou or go to its thread and tell me if people call Kurono a bitch(closest character to Kamisato in a protagonist spot with similar harem issues)

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

Read Kuro no Maou or go to its thread and tell me if people call Kurono a bitch(closest character to Kamisato in a protagonist spot with similar harem issues)

it is usually because his issue arent written in a compelling way, in toaru, he is a as*hole with that kind of personality,
in every story the MC on the other hand is the "hero"/"good guy" because the story is written in such a way around him...
take Light from Death Note as example, a lot of fans liked him despite him being arguably worse than any person toaru ever showed

if the author uses negative examples and also shows the negative outcomes to describe a char its "look" will inevitably also drastically decrease...

[Kuroageha]

I think NT9 already did a good work showing Touma is no good but selfishness and sophistry.

Just like Aiwass said way before on OT19.

[Marcus H.]

if the author uses negative examples and also shows the negative outcomes to describe a char its "look" will inevitably also drastically decrease...

Well, if we're getting really meta about this, then even that little peek of Touma's negative traits are outnumbered by the things that the readers like about him, and by extension, the problems in the story and storytelling aspects are overshadowed by the more funny parts of the volume.

In another topic...

Seeing Touma somehow regret having to see Nephthys sacrifice herself isn't enough if the next day he'd just end up goofing along with Aogami and the others.

Kamachi has to take things seriously now else be drowned in his own comedy.

[Hiss13]

Originally Posted by Loremaster

Mikoto's main problem is indeed her inability to see the truth of the power she really seeks in life. In a world where esper ability pretty much defines your place in society, it's not hard to see why shes struggling to see it. Of course you may say, well she doesn't really think much about power in the past. Which is true seen in the level upper incident, but frankly that was a complete lie.

I always felt Mikoto has often lied to herself in the past to hide he true feelings regarding the city. This was basically shown by how she reacted internally during the level six shift on herself and by realising the true scope of darkness within this city.

She always knew deep down that power has defined the life she is in. That has always been a development point for Misaka with some characters saying, do you honestly think you would have your current like without your title of 'level 5'. This issue seems to be more than just Touma's actions. But Touma's actions and personality did have a big effect on what we see right now.

And I agree with someone in this thread who mentioned she hates going out of her comfort zone. And yet ironically right now shes doing just that but in the wrong way.

The sad part is that she finally was able to experience the world beyond Academy City and the Number 3 Level 5 for a short period of time on the boat with Nephthys and Niang-Niang. It was the first time, she acted as a human being rather than the Number 3 (hence that short essay from the NT13 thread).

But, unlike Touma, who is more aware of his humanity, Mikoto can't understand it. She has no understanding of it and is trying to reach it again. Unfortunately, that desperation is taking her on an entirely different route.

Originally Posted by Loremaster

@hiss13

I don't believe Touma was able to do anything about how Mikoto is currently turning out. Since honestly Touma is just as damaged as my broken toaster downstairs in my kitchen and I'm pretty sure a broken package can't fix another. But his actions have dramatically helped push Mikoto to her current point.

I believe like someone else did that if Touma brought her along in NT3, things may of turned out completely different. And while he has had this effect, it's ultimately her issues which are to blame here. But let's not overlook Touma's effect on Mikoto and maybe even that promise to protect her has really became a curse.

NT3. Let's go back to the circumstances there. At the end of NT3 we have Touma pretty much devastated because of the fact that Birdy manipulated him into causing the cooperative institutions to detach from AC. Now, why did the cooperative institutions do this? Because a force from Academy City intervened with the matters from a foreign nation and had a heavy influence.

Touma now thinks this entire stuff is his fault for bringing Mikoto and the rest with him and wants to rectify that without any more issues. Keep in mind that this is post-WWIII Touma which means that this is after his character suffered the 'second' death. He has changed as a result of it.

So, what does Touma do? Act on his own without any connection to Academy City. Why would he bring Mikoto, one of the public faces of AC, along with him? That very option was likely shut out of his mind no matter how much Mikoto would have likely pleaded him.

Plus, I highly doubt that bringing her along would have changed much. If anything, it'd be much more like NT13 which ended up spurring this in Mikoto.

[Theroryu]

Wow Kamisato is an ass.
"Let's kill Kamijou and hope the Kamijou Faction doesn't go after us"
Guess Othinus is right in that Kamisato doesn't feel much about his actions.

Too lazy to read all all the older posts, so can anyone tell me why is Touma being somewhat blamed for Misaka's condition?

[entei08]

The betrayal was quite expected. Touma doesn't have Kamisato all figured out like he thinks he does, which I liked.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

I forever disagree with this kind of opinion when at most only their names are known and nothing else.

But the Kamijou faction wouldn't blindly follow Touma like Kamisato's is doing. Touma has inspired many to follow in his ideals. If he were to ever go astray, they would stop him.

[Hiss13]

The irony in all this is while I said the Kamijou faction is independent and lives their own lives, Mikoto is being the best counterexample to this right now. Granted, she's alone in that regard.

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

I think NT9 already did a good work showing Touma is no good but selfishness and sophistry.

unfortunatly even than it was touma in a underdog and victim position, if you arent a sadist or hate him you will end up with being on his side,
imagine a scenario where touma follows a ambition like eternal world peace but reaches a point where he must sacrifice lifes, he choses to sacrifice lifes for reaching his goal (like he did in NT9)...

not sure if a lot of people would agree with his decision in that case

Just like Aiwass said way before on OT19.

yeah, i think marcus said it very well:

Well, if we're getting really meta about this, then even that little peek of Touma's negative traits are outnumbered by the things that the readers like about him, and by extension, the problems in the story and storytelling aspects are overshadowed by the more funny parts of the volume.

Originally Posted by bakato

If he were to ever go astray, they would stop him.

i think this is a yes and no... NT10 showed that there are some who wouldnt stop him even at that point (and he went astray, helping a terrorist isnt good)...
but some others tried to...

[Loremaster]

Originally Posted by hiss13

NT3. Let's go back to the circumstances there. At the end of NT3 we have Touma pretty much devastated because of the fact that Birdy manipulated him into causing the cooperative institutions to detach from AC. Now, why did the cooperative institutions do this? Because a force from Academy City intervened with the matters from a foreign nation and had a heavy influence.

Touma now thinks this entire stuff is his fault for bringing Mikoto and the rest with him and wants to rectify that without any more issues. Keep in mind that this is post-WWIII Touma which means that this is after his character suffered the 'second' death. He has changed as a result of it.

So, what does Touma do? Act on his own without any connection to Academy City. Why would he bring Mikoto, one of the public faces of AC, along with him? That very option was likely shut out of his mind no matter how much Mikoto would have likely pleaded him.

Plus, I highly doubt that bringing her along would have changed much. If anything, it'd be much more like NT13 which ended up spurring this in Mikoto.

I'm sure it was the display of his right hand which really terrified the poor girl. Either way we don't really now and may never know what would of happened. But from what I understand if he took her along at that moment. I think things would of changed since there was no crazy high priest jumping about at that moment.

But I think Touma's decision to not bring her along will be a regretful one. And frankly a decision which shows how weak he is as a person at that time. There is strength relying on others not just on yourself. No one can do anything on there own and thinking that way in my eyes is weakness.

Screw Academy city, screw the consequences of taking her along at that moment. What really mattered at that point was what Mikoto wanted to do to help him. Touma basically acted as a fool, but an honest one.

I'm not bagging on Touma as a character despite his flaws, but that wasn't a good decision because it frankly told Mikoto deep down she wasn't good enough to help him with his problems. He may not of meant it that way and truly wanted to protected Mikoto from what was happening.

But that decision was a mistake and there is no going back now.

Again I really think that promise to protect her and the world around Mikoto is turning into a curse.

[Theroryu]

I'm rather interested in the fact that Touma was worried when Fukiyose mentioned about Kamisato.
Was there any other time when a classmate; an ordinary classmate/person not connected to the side of the world Touma knows asks him about it?

It's kinda hard to explain.. But I guess it feels like another form of that 'destruction of sanctuaries' Kamachi mentioned. In this case, a sanctuary in the process of destruction.
Or maybe I'm just overthinking this.

Also.... I kinda regret searching about Higozuiki-chan.

[Hiss13]

Originally Posted by Loremaster

I'm sure it was the display of his right hand which really terrified the poor girl. Either way we don't really now and may never know what would of happened. But from what I understand if he took her along at that moment. I think things would of changed since there was no crazy high priest jumping about at that moment.

If that's the case then the result would be the same regardless. Baggage City had Othinus tearing off Touma's right hand and the invisible thing coming out (only to be BTFO). At the same time, while there was no High Priest, there was an Othinus. Which is why I said her going to Baggage City with Touma would have only exacerbated the problem.

Originally Posted by Loremaster

But I think Touma's decision to not bring her along will be a regretful one. And frankly a decision which shows how weak he is as a person at that time. There is strength relying on others not just on yourself. No one can do anything on there own and thinking that way in my eyes is weakness.

Screw Academy city, screw the consequences of taking her along at that moment. What really mattered at that point was what Mikoto wanted to do to help him. Touma basically acted as a fool, but an honest one.

I'm not bagging on Touma as a character despite his flaws, but that wasn't a good decision because it frankly told Mikoto deep down she wasn't good enough to help him with his problems. He may not of meant it that way and truly wanted to protected Mikoto from what was happening.

But that decision was a mistake and there is no going back now.

Again I really think that promise to protect her and the world around Mikoto is turning into a curse.

Regardless of whether he took Mikoto along or not, this would have ended up happening. If anything, going with him to Baggage City would have only made the problem worse since this is a problem with Mikoto's own self-image. It's a lose-lose situation regardless of what Touma did.

[Loremaster]

We don't really know if it would of made the problem worse or not. Because if he took her along, she may of learned about a lot of things. Time to digest and understand about magic if Touma actually opened up.

But that was never going to happen. But let's say he did and she got settled and understood this entire new side of the world. Things are likely to be different. Mikoto Misaka in general is a smart girl and that was shown in NT13 very well in the end. Her intelligence in my mind is a bigger asset than her powers which is only hindered by her ignorance of the magic side.

Shes also a powerful piece in general we have no idea how those events after NT3 would exactly go down. The entire story and how events have gone seemed to have been an action followed by a reaction like a game of chess. Mikoto's presence would of likely have a very different effect to these events and send a shock to the system.

But there would still probably be issues because in the end... she is still a girl hiding in a monster costume of her own design.

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by Loremaster

We don't really know if it would of made the problem worse or not. Because if he took her along, she may of learned about a lot of things. Time to digest and understand about magic if Touma actually opened up.

if touma didnt take her with him that time too than i think it wouldnt change anything, she would blame him for shoulering everything alone etc etc etc etc

and any other scenario where she was brought along (be it NT13 or 4) in which she wont be able to be useful would result in the same mindset as the current one :/

[Loremaster]

Let's come back to this discussion if we see a time she isn't ignorant of the real events going on. Because than only then we can properly gauge just how we she might of acted in those moments. I mean hell for someone being rather ignorant she has done pretty well on a few occasions.

That's is my opinion though and while I see the possible failings I just give her intelligence a bit more credit than others. Since when she understands something properly she truly excels which is testament to her standing as an Esper.

Let's see what happens.

[Hiss13]

Originally Posted by Loremaster

We don't really know if it would of made the problem worse or not. Because if he took her along, she may of learned about a lot of things. Time to digest and understand about magic if Touma actually opened up.

But that was never going to happen. But let's say he did and she got settled and understood this entire new side of the world. Things are likely to be different. Mikoto Misaka in general is a smart girl and that was shown in NT13 very well in the end. Her intelligence in my mind is a bigger asset than her powers which is only hindered by her ignorance of the magic side.

Let's say Touma had the time to sit her down and do just that (properly). Then what? What can she do? She'll end up facing the same dilemma because she won't be capable of acting. At best, she'll be able help him through minor support but her learning about the existence of magic (something she's written off time and time again) won't change the fact that she'll reach the same dilemma eventually.

But Touma can't. He's not enough of a specialist to give Mikoto the exact same lecture Birdway gave Accelerator and Hamazura. Not to mention, between NT3 and NT4, there would not be enough time. Touma had to plan his next move. He had to eventually catch onto the trail Kagun left him. She would have been as in the dark about what the hell was going on in NT04 was she would have been about what the hell was going on in NT13.

Originally Posted by Loremaster

Shes also a powerful piece in general we have no idea how those events after NT3 would exactly go down. The entire story and how events have gone seemed to have been an action followed by a reaction like a game of chess. Mikoto's presence would of likely have a very different effect to these events and send a shock to the system.

But there would still probably be issues because in the end... she is still a girl hiding in a monster costume of her own design.

Mikoto's presence would have done nothing. If anything GREMLIN would have made her a priority target for elimination like the Kihara. She would have been attacked from all sides and I know for a fact that she would be crushed the moment she faced Marian. Provided she survived through all of that, the ending would not change. Othinus would confront Touma. Right hand would be broken/crushed. IT would have said hi. Yadda yadda yadda.

Long story short, I am 100 % sure that anything she could have done in NT04 would be minimal and all roads would lead back to the same dilemma. Such was inevitable.

The ONLY way to have this never happen is for either Mikoto or Touma to have never found out about the Sisters. That is it.

[VTP-DDM]

The hypothetical about Mikoto going to Baggage City is interesting but she actually could have gotten more involved far earlier than that. Vento attacking Academy City was surely an ideal opportunity for her to get some answers out of Touma yet she never did. Looking back on it, Touma was certainly negligent in never explaining anything to her (it involved her directly, so she had a right to know what was going on), but at the same time Mikoto ended up trailing so far behind him because she never pushed hard enough to catch up to him.

But even if she had caught up to him, I don't think she avoid this current mindset she's in, because the crux of the issue is that she feels like a burden to Touma and no amount of involvement in previous events would change that. Pre-WW3 she can't move around freely. Post WW3 she's simply outmatched by the people Touma's fighting against. And as normal as she's made out to be, she's still a person with enormous power and being put in situations where that power is useless leaves her in a bad position because it's come to define who she is.

Anyway, we shall read on with morbid fascination as Kamachi tears her character down and rebuilds it, hopefully in a way that gets her more involved.

As for Kamisato, I'm still not entirely sure how I should be feeling about him. The whole Kamisato Faction vs Kamijou Faction thing feels lacklustre to me considering the Kamijou Faction is just a concept and not an actual entity, yet it's been causing Touma no end of problems. The villain of this novel feels a bit flat since her motivation for acting is the misunderstanding that Kamisato is under threat from something that doesn't actually exist.

[Kuroageha]

The villain here is Yuitsu, Salome is both heroine and antagonist.

Originally Posted by entei08

The betrayal was quite expected. Touma doesn't have Kamisato all figured out like he thinks he does, which I liked.

I liked this too, someone who doesn't knows himself has no right to pretend to know and judge others.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

i think this is a yes and no... NT10 showed that there are some who wouldnt stop him even at that point (and he went astray, helping a terrorist isnt good)...
but some others tried to...

Like who? And he was saving a terrorist and saving is what he inspired them to do.