Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

You're ignoring the part where I mentioned there's still thrusters installed in the wings along with the Voiture Lumiere.

Ah ok. Didn't know there were conventional thrusters as well being blocked by the Dragoons. Thought only VL was blocked.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Then enlighten me on how the Destiny's wings could work in an atmosphere, because it's also a VL system.

Destiny's WoL are different. Though I don't know how besides incorporating Mirage Colloid for the mirror effect. While SF's VL is using Stargazer's version which uses solar winds to help propulsion.

This I'll need a scene for to confirm this detail, since I'm not past the 10th DVD, as my copy is corrupted, so I haven't seen all the battles the Strike Freedom has taken part in. If you or someone else could provide me a link I'd be grateful.

Show me a picture, and don't rely on "most likely"s to make an argument. We could argue anything on "most likely"s...

Episode 39 when SF first launched from the Eternal you can see the Dragoon's and leg thrusters start up.

Though I'll retract the feet thruster statement. I thought Freedom had them so I assumed SF would. I thought Freedom had them when in episode 42 when he saved the escaping Eternal stopping to shoot the missiles, it looked like thrusters coming from the feet. I just to look at it again and while it looked like it came from the feet, it was the leg thrusters.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by quagmire

Destiny's WoL are different. Though I don't know how besides incorporating Mirage Colloid for the mirror effect. While SF's VL is using Stargazer's version which uses solar winds to help propulsion.

Destiny's was reverse-engineered from the Stargazer's, while the Strike Freedom's was developed directly from the Stargazer. It's entirely possible that all of them utilize the Mirage Colloid, but it's never been confirmed.

Originally Posted by quagmire

Episode 39 when SF first launched from the Eternal you can see the Dragoon's and leg thrusters start up.

Thanks. That said, those thrusters compared to the ones for the wings themselves... still better off without the Super DRAGOON weapons in-atmosphere.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by quagmire

Destiny's WoL are different. Though I don't know how besides incorporating Mirage Colloid for the mirror effect. While SF's VL is using Stargazer's version which uses solar winds to help propulsion.

The Stargazer's VL used more than solar winds, as seen by the giant laser they used to get the thing started. That being said, it's not hard for any kind of energy to be used to accelerate the VL. Remember how the VL caught and slingshotted enemy beam fire? Obviously, not even the Stargazer was limited to just solar wind.

And according to the MG manual, the Destiny's WoL were directly reverse-engineered from the Stargazer's. That, to me, implies the only difference between it and the SF's is the Mirage Colloid you mentioned. Meaning if the Destiny could use its VL to such massive effect in atmospheric conditions, the SF should be able to, too.

Fair enough.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by I Fail at Life

Destined Fate: Just quit man,we all know your shinn's White Knight in Shining Armor,there's no reasoning with you. I look at like this if,Shinn did not beat kira in that fight,you would have no argument,you would have nothing to come at people with,no reason to argue with them. What would you be doing now? Any ideas

I notice that you just attacked me but don't deny that my post is true. No matter how you look at it Kira didn't beat Shinn. Losing the Freedom was pretty big and the only one that shares any blame in it is Kira for not thinking Shinn was on par with him which Shinn shows that he is in Orb when they fight in their new Gundams.

The funny thing about Ifs, anything could happen. However, this is fact. Kira lost to Shinn and the Freedom was lost after Shinn trashed it. Kira surviving is a miracle considering how messed up the Freedom was and that it fell into the ocean. Cagalli doesn't get enough credit for bailing out Kira when it was his fault for thinking Shinn wasn't a good pilot despite seeing him fight already. Gundams aren't handed out to the average joe in SEED after all. Especially when it comes to Shinn whose exploits were being plastered all over the news networks since he has already won many battles before fighting Kira.

Unless they're Destroys but those require the pilot to be pumped full of drugs and mentally screwed up to become killing machines. Too bad all the Destroy pilots were horrible but Stella considering how easily they get trashed by Shinn, Rey, and Lunamaria. Which goes to show that had Shinn not known Stella he would have taken her out just fine alone at Berlin. It was his emotions that got in the way of that and his desire to save her.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Thanks. That said, those thrusters compared to the ones for the wings themselves... still better off without the Super DRAGOON weapons in-atmosphere.

Depending on their shape, they could also aid in creating lift when SF extends the wings. Remove them and the thrusters could be working overtime.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

... I'm not seeing how. Those things are only going to increase drag with the way the machine flies in atmosphere.

It's similar to how Freedom's wings work.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

This, of course, doesn't even mention the only thrusters the SF has without the Voiture Lumiere is that block on its back

It's just like Freedom.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by quagmire

Depending on their shape, they could also aid in creating lift when SF extends the wings.

That would only apply if the SF were flying belly-down, and we never saw it flying like that when it was in atmosphere from what I can remember.

Remove them and the thrusters could be working overtime.

The only flaw with that is if the DRAGOONs are removed, the thrusters are pushing less mass around, which mitigates most, if not all, of the work the thrusters would have to put out to keep the suit aloft without the additional lift you postulated for the DRAGOONs.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

That would only apply if the SF were flying belly-down, and we never saw it flying like that when it was in atmosphere from what I can remember.

Except the HiMAT Mode is intended for aerial dogfighting. Regardless of how realistic it is to real life physics, it still means the wings are not just there for when (Strike) Freedom is "flying belly-down."

The only flaw with that is if the DRAGOONs are removed, the thrusters are pushing less mass around, which mitigates most, if not all, of the work the thrusters would have to put out to keep the suit aloft.

Originally Posted by quagmire

Remove them and the thrusters could be working overtime.

Actually, (Strike) Freedom is already well equipped for atmospheric flight with just its main thrusters. It doesn't need extra thrusters for that.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by monster

It's similar to how Freedom's wings work.

Freedom didn't really have to worry about that because Freedom can't run out of power so it can run its thrusters indefinitely. On top of that... Freedom's wings have a far greater range of motion than the Strike Freedom's, and can position themselves as needed to gain lift. The Strike Freedom's cannot, as they are limited by their size and deployment.

And since it does seem that the Voiture Lumiere can catch more than just solar winds, it has far greater coverage than the Freedom's wings anyway, but are unable to do this because the Super DRAGOONs are still attached to it in-atmosphere.

Originally Posted by monster

It's just like Freedom.

The Freedom's wings have its own unrestricted internal set-up, unlike the Strike Freedom's, whose thrusters are only on four small sections and the rest are obscured by the Super DRAGOONs when they aren't deployed.

Originally Posted by monster

Except the HiMAT Mode is intended for aerial dogfighting. Regardless of how realistic it is to real life physics, it still means the wings are not just there for when (Strike) Freedom is "flying belly-down."

And as we're trying to tell everyone, HiMAT would be improved by the removal of the Super DRAGOONs in-atmosphere because THE STRIKE FREEDOM HAS A GREATER RANGE OF THRUSTERS WITHOUT THEM. Never mind the benefits it'd gain from the Voiture Lumiere that was demonstrated with the Stargazer's.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by monster

Actually, (Strike) Freedom is already well equipped for atmospheric flight with just its main thrusters. It doesn't need extra thrusters for that.

True, but the less the thrusters have to work just to keep the machine aloft, the more thrust it has to use for speed, dodging, etc.

[aeriolewinters]

Freedom didn't really have to worry about that because Freedom can't run out of power so it can run its thrusters indefinitely. On top of that... Freedom's wings have a far greater range of motion than the Strike Freedom's, and can position themselves as needed to gain lift. The Strike Freedom's cannot, as they are limited by their size and deployment.

This was what I'm Alluding to. The Strike Freedom has less maneuverability compared to the original:

Compare a side-by-side dogding Scene of the Freedom and the Strike Freedom in-atmosphere, and you'll see that the Strike Freedom isn't as maneuverable in the atmosphere.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Freedom didn't really have to worry about that because Freedom can't run out of power so it can run its thrusters indefinitely. On top of that... Freedom's wings have a far greater range of motion than the Strike Freedom's, and can position themselves as needed to gain lift. The Strike Freedom's cannot, as they are limited by their size and deployment.

If there's any need to worry about Strike Freedom running out of power, it's when it uses more thrusters. Otherwise, it should have the same operational time limit as Freedom, if not more.

The Freedom's wings have its own unrestricted internal set-up, unlike the Strike Freedom's, whose thrusters are only on four small sections and the rest are obscured by the Super DRAGOONs when they aren't deployed.

Even with the DRAGOONs attached, Strike Freedom still wouldn't be lacking thrusters compared to Freedom.

And as we're trying to tell everyone, HiMAT would be improved by the removal of the Super DRAGOONs in-atmosphere because THE STRIKE FREEDOM HAS A GREATER RANGE OF THRUSTERS WITHOUT THEM. Never mind the benefits it'd gain from the Voiture Lumiere that was demonstrated with the Stargazer's.

Considering that HiMAT relies on physical wings, how would losing that improve HiMAT?

I agree with you that having those extra thrusters would increase Strike Freedom's acceleration/speed, but that has nothing to do with the HiMAT Mode.

[Rising Dragon]

*facepalms* HiMAT needs those thrusters to work at all, monster; it has EVERYTHING to do with the HiMAT Mode. Those wings mean nothing without the thrusters to maneuver the Freedom or Strike Freedom around. And aforementioned Voiture Lumiere system is a part of the Strike Freedom's HiMAT system so for maximum potential it needs to be deployed.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

*facepalms* HiMAT needs those thrusters to work at all, monster; it has EVERYTHING to do with the HiMAT Mode. Those wings mean nothing without the thrusters to maneuver the Freedom or Strike Freedom around. And aforementioned Voiture Lumiere system is a part of the Strike Freedom's HiMAT system so for maximum potential it needs to be deployed.

HiMAT is an atmospheric flight configuration. Since Strike Freedom does not deploy its Voiture Lumiere-based system in the atmosphere, then it should be obvious that it's not part of that configuration.

For people who don't seem to understand what HiMAT is, here's a direct quotation from GundamOfficial:

The atmospheric flight configuration of the Freedom Gundam, in which its wings are unfolded for higher maneuverability.

That's it, nothing more and nothing less. Sure, thrusters play a part in speed and acceleration, but the added aerial maneuverability is controlled by the physical wings in HiMAT configuration, not the thrusters.

[Rising Dragon]

And WHERE is it said that it's for atmospheric use only? Because if it was for that only, then it was pointless all those times the Freedom deployed it in space... which was frequent...

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

And WHERE is it said that it's for atmospheric use only? Because if it was for that only, then it was pointless all those times the Freedom deployed it in space... which was frequent...

In space, it doesn't really matter since there's practically nothing to hinder your mobile suit. Then again, that's why Strike Freedom is a better mobile suit than Freedom, because now it makes use of those "useless" wings in space.

[Rising Dragon]

Doesn't answer my question.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Doesn't answer my question.

I edited my reply.

[Rising Dragon]

Better. But it's still ignoring that the VL works in the atmosphere and provides further benefits that the Strike Freedom could take advantage of, but can't because it has unusable weaponry blocking it.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

And WHERE is it said that it's for atmospheric use only? Because if it was for that only, then it was pointless all those times the Freedom deployed it in space... which was frequent...

In the case of SF, spreading the wings out would help with an even distribution of thrust from the wing thrusters and Dragoon thrusters.

Also, SF already has more thrusters than Freedom even with the dragoons docked( freedom didn't have thrusters on the wings if I recall correctly. They were there mostly for himat and to house the beam weapons). Though SF weighing 9 more tons than Freedom may neglect the extra thrusters.