First Squad - a World War 2 anime by Studio 4°C

[qmeister]

Originally Posted by Fran~

What about Kurogane PukaPuka Tai???...

Oh you...

Definitely lots of fantasies about Cookie in there.

[MrTerrorist]

Since this movie takes place in the Eatsern Front, i wonder if they show the brutality committed by both the Soviets & Germans. (Since its being co-produce with Russia, i suspecting the movie will be very bias on the portrayals).

[Karnot]

i wonder if they show the brutality committed by both the Soviets & Germans.

I wonder if it'll feature USians selling war supplies to Nazi regime.

[orion]

WW2 continues to be a touchy topic. This isn't a historical documentary you know.

[idiffer]

i was interested in this. i've always wanted to see russians in anime. what i didnt want to see though is monsters and shit like pioneer girls running around with swords (i may be a little off, saw the trailer a long time ago). why do they have to add sci-fi to everything? this will probably suck.
and i do hope they will show the US at all. but anyway it'll be funny watching both sides.

[TigerII]

^^^ Same with me. I would have liked to see something without the fantasy. I doubt Americans will be involved unless it is just a merchant marine vessel or the OSS gets involved.


And Yes Orion, World War II is still a touchy subject by all sides. The Allies like to act like beacons of hope, yet they committed acts of atrocities as well. Then you have nations still pissed at Japan because Japan likes to downplay facts or straight up deny them. World War II will be cause or debate until World War III comes in to effect, lol.

[orion]

Well, adding sci-fi kind of negates any WW2 debates. I think that it's a good thing.

Discussion can be mainly about the film.

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by idiffer

i was interested in this. i've always wanted to see russians in anime. what i didnt want to see though is monsters and shit like pioneer girls running around with swords (i may be a little off, saw the trailer a long time ago). why do they have to add sci-fi to everything? this will probably suck.
and i do hope they will show the US at all. but anyway it'll be funny watching both sides.

Come on, we should at least be grateful that they decided to make anything about the Eastern Front.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by TigerII

Well, this is about the closest thing we will get to a WWII show that doesn't have some fantasy element in in, so cheers, lol. I guess the countless movies, books, and games that don't involve fantasy and WWII are enough, lol.

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Come on, we should at least be grateful that they decided to make anything about the Eastern Front.

I'm not sure how familiar everyone is with Russian/Soviet filmmaking, but First Squad seems to be much more of a Russian production than a Japanese one. This implies a few things: that the fantasy element is precisely why it's anime instead being live-action, and that there will be a fair degree of adherence to historical accuracy (or at least moreso than what most Westerners will be used to). The Russian film market is saturated enough with relatively accurate portrayals of World War II (or more accurately the Great Patriotic War) that it simply wouldn't make sense to make an anime that was probably better handled in an older production.

Likewise, because of its focus, the film is very unlikely to do much more than name drop some of the other belligerents - much like you would see in a documentary about the Eastern Front. And realistically, almost none of the countries aside from Germany and the USSR would have had much immediate impact on this theatre of war in early 1942. The exceptions of course would be the other belligerents like Finland or Rumania who had troops in-theatre, but even that would depend on where the action takes place. Since it seems to be centered around Lake Peipus, they probably will not be prominent. Instead we'll see some good old-fashioned Nazi sorcery against Commie Pah-pah-shahs.

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

Since this movie takes place in the Eatsern Front, i wonder if they show the brutality committed by both the Soviets & Germans. (Since its being co-produce with Russia, i suspecting the movie will be very bias on the portrayals).

There isn't a whole lot of need for bias. The story takes place in Winter 1942, so there wouldn't have been any time for the Soviets to commit all that much brutality, while the Germans have just wrapped up Barbarossa. Any realistic portrayal would have to be heavily one-sided if it were to reflect the historical events. That said, there are plenty of other avenues to pursue if the Russian producers had an axe to grind about Nazi brutality - Come and See is a good example of this kind of story.

Originally Posted by TigerII

And Yes Orion, World War II is still a touchy subject by all sides. The Allies like to act like beacons of hope, yet they committed acts of atrocities as well. Then you have nations still pissed at Japan because Japan likes to downplay facts or straight up deny them. World War II will be cause or debate until World War III comes in to effect, lol.

It does take a certain amount of time before emotional historical events can be put into their proper perspective, and there are all sorts of peccadilloes of human behavior that make it hard to do so properly. I heard almost 20 years ago that it was still too soon to discuss World War II, and that just about enough time had passed to discuss World War I. I was skeptical about that, but it turns out to be quite correct - on top of that, there still persist all sorts of myths about the war that have filtered into the public consciousness.

[Entropy]

This movie has WWII Soviets. WWII Soviets in anime? I'm in.

In any case, if we see some US or Western Allied involvement, it'd likely be either the artic convoys sending lend-lease supplies and equipment, some of which might show up in the show and being used by the special squad, or maybe we can cut to a scene in Germany where the Allied strategic bombing campaign will have started and would be underway, though as of 1942 I'm pretty sure that this is so far mostly a British show.

[TigerII]

British? It is a joint project between Canada, Russia, and Japan. I still laugh at the fact they made the main character have a katana over maybe a Cossack Saber. I am guessing that was added to have some connection to the Japanese audience. Well at least they can use a legitimate story of her(Or whoever gives it to her) capturing it during the 1939 border war in Mongolia. A lot of Japanese equipment was captured by the Soviets. The Soviets were pushing the Kwantung Army back hard(One reason after the conflict the Japanese bolstered it) and the only reason they didn't go further was the war clouds developing on the Western front. I guess Stalin thought taking Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Poland were better targets than the wastelands of Manchuria and Inner Mongolia.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Likewise, because of its focus, the film is very unlikely to do much more than name drop some of the other belligerents - much like you would see in a documentary about the Eastern Front. And realistically, almost none of the countries aside from Germany and the USSR would have had much immediate impact on this theatre of war in early 1942. The exceptions of course would be the other belligerents like Finland or Rumania who had troops in-theatre, but even that would depend on where the action takes place. Since it seems to be centered around Lake Peipus, they probably will not be prominent. Instead we'll see some good old-fashioned Nazi sorcery against Commie Pah-pah-shahs.

I hope this too, but so far I have seen many shots of the SS squad, which happen to be females, fighting hand-to-hand combat with spears and such. I do hope that these fantasy elements are saturated with realistic ones, lol.

[Entropy]

I mean the 1942 Strat bombing campaign would be mostly done by the Brits, I think the Americans only really start bombing in earnest from '43 or so onward.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by TigerII

British? It is a joint project between Canada, Russia, and Japan.

It's not really a joint project per se. The creative staff are mostly Russians who hired out the animation to Studio 4°C, and the "Canadian" part is just that some of these Russians are based/live in Canada.

Originally Posted by TigerII

I still laugh at the fact they made the main character have a katana over maybe a Cossack Saber. I am guessing that was added to have some connection to the Japanese audience.

I don't know about that. Anime seems to be fairly popular in Russia nowadays, so katana can be more for Russian audiences than anything else. It's an extra touch of exoticism that isn't all that different from how many anime use Nordic references. If they were really interested in connecting with a Japanese audience, they would have made the protagonists the Germans (Valkyria Chronicles, I'm looking at you!).

Originally Posted by TigerII

The Soviets were pushing the Kwantung Army back hard(One reason after the conflict the Japanese bolstered it) and the only reason they didn't go further was the war clouds developing on the Western front. I guess Stalin thought taking Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Poland were better targets than the wastelands of Manchuria and Inner Mongolia.

Historical nitpic: the Soviets didn't entertain any realistic interests in the Far East until 1945. While there was a certain amount of desire to avenge the Russo-Japanese War, they knew that it wasn't practical, and all of their political and strategic moves seem to be consistent with this.

Originally Posted by TigerII

I hope this too, but so far I have seen many shots of the SS squad, which happen to be females, fighting hand-to-hand combat with spears and such. I do hope that these fantasy elements are saturated with realistic ones, lol.

I do agree, but I'm already more or less sold by the details that we've already seen. My main hope is that the film turns out to be pretty good in terms of characterization and storytelling.

[TigerII]

I know the Soviets didn't really care about Inner Mongolia/Manchuria in 39, or they wouldn't have so easily agreed to the armistice the Japanese presented to them. At that time, the Soviet tanks (Which is laughable because the mainstay would be decimated by the Germans(T-26 was the main tank used in Mongolia)) were ripping through the Japanese to the point the Japanese started suicide anti-tank bombers(Something the Americans, Australians, and British would encounter later in the war). The prospect of taking those above mentioned Eastern European nations was greater in the eyes of the STAVKA and Stalin. In 1945 the Red hordes were massive and Stalin saw the chance to smash the Kwantung Army when it was at its weakest(Many units were pulled to fight the Americans in the Pacific-Ironically, many never saw combat due to the American 'Island Hopping'). In mere weeks the Soviet Army decimated the Kwantung Army. Add the threat of Soviet invasion in Hokkaido plus the two atomic weapons and you have a Japan ready to surrender.

....Sorry about that. I am a war buff. Well, twentieth century war buff(Russo-Japanese to the Yom Kippur War is what I mainly study, and everything in between.) Didn't mean to go into that, lol.

[konart]

Now we know than it will be an OVA
Well, to be more accurate it will be a movie, but only due to some chronicles and interviews - otherwise nobody will show it in cinema, at least here. in Russia

There about 50 minutes of animation in FS


via REN-TV (TV channel here)

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by TigerII

I know the Soviets didn't really care about Inner Mongolia/Manchuria in 39, or they wouldn't have so easily agreed to the armistice the Japanese presented to them.

Armistice? It was an undeclared war, so there was never any peace treaty or anything like that. There was a non-aggression pact between the two countries signed in 1941, but that came a long time after this particular border war. And it came after the partition of Poland, the Winter War, the annexation of the Baltic States, and Bessarabia.

Originally Posted by TigerII

In 1945 the Red hordes were massive and Stalin saw the chance to smash the Kwantung Army when it was at its weakest(Many units were pulled to fight the Americans in the Pacific-Ironically, many never saw combat due to the American 'Island Hopping'). In mere weeks the Soviet Army decimated the Kwantung Army. Add the threat of Soviet invasion in Hokkaido plus the two atomic weapons and you have a Japan ready to surrender.

The Soviet strategic interests seem to be a bit more intensive in 1945 than you posit. Even if the Kwantung Army hadn't been depleted, they would have still attacked. The best book I've come across regarding this subject is "Racing the Enemy" by Hasegawa, especially since it's one of the very few translated into English that draw extensively from Japanese sources, and I recommend it if you haven't already read it. As I said earlier in this thread, that would be an awesome topic for a realistic anime, but the only people who would have any interest in doing so are the Russians.

Originally Posted by TigerII

....Sorry about that. I am a war buff. Well, twentieth century war buff(Russo-Japanese to the Yom Kippur War is what I mainly study, and everything in between.) Didn't mean to go into that, lol.

Ditto, I'm afraid . The difference being that I also have a lot of interest in the older conflicts (I'm into a lot of Napoleonic material currently).

Originally Posted by konart

Now we know than it will be an OVA
Well, to be more accurate it will be a movie, but only due to some chronicles and interviews - otherwise nobody will show it in cinema, at least here. in Russia

There about 50 minutes of animation in FS


via REN-TV (TV channel here)

So it's been confirmed that First Squad is going to be a 50-minute film? That's a bit of a shame - I've been hoping for something more in the 90-minute range. Still, that's plenty of time to tell a cohesive storyn - I just hope that it works better than other short OVA/movies like Kai Doh Maru. The runtime will all but guarantee that realism is going to be a very low priority.

[orion]

Well there won't be a definitive conclusion with a runtime of 50 min. Hopefully, it'll be another Blood the Last Vampire, a snapshot of the life of the protag during the war as a soldier.

[TigerII]

Oh, I know the Soviets would have attacked. Stalin wanted to put even more influence on the Chinese Civil War(More than he had, which is still a lot) and Stalin wanted to 'liberate' the people of Korea as well.


Okay, while not a full fledged armistice, a cease-fire was signed between the Soviets and Japanese on September 15, 1939. This occurred after the fierce Battle of Khalkhyn Gol. This allowed Stalin to focus everything on the September 17 invasion of the eastern portion of Poland.

On a side note, I have often wondered how the Red Army would have fared of the vast majority of competent officers had not been executed or sent to the prisons(Which was basically execution. Less than 10% of the Red Officers sent to the prisons in the 30s were alive by 1941). I mean, Stalin even had the man who was carrying out these orders(Marshall Blyukher) put to death. The man who organized the tank units(I forget his name at the moment) was killed, as were the men who helped the Republicans during the Spanish Civil War(Khrushchev said that himself).

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by orion

Well there won't be a definitive conclusion with a runtime of 50 min. Hopefully, it'll be another Blood the Last Vampire, a snapshot of the life of the protag during the war as a soldier.

There are pluses and minuses to this. The plus are that it forces the production to be tightly focused around a very small number of characters (a big problem with Kai Doh Maru) and that the story is based around historical events - negating the necessity to explain everything or the need for much of an epilogue. The minus is that it's a setting (both the Great Patriotic War in 1942 and the Battle of the Ice) that's going to be unfamiliar with most of the potential audience so there has to be a certain amount of background information. It's definitely a challenge, but if it's successfully pulled off, it will make for a very tight story.

Originally Posted by TigerII

Okay, while not a full fledged armistice, a cease-fire was signed between the Soviets and Japanese on September 15, 1939. This occurred after the fierce Battle of Khalkhyn Gol. This allowed Stalin to focus everything on the September 17 invasion of the eastern portion of Poland.

Ah, that.

Originally Posted by TigerII

On a side note, I have often wondered how the Red Army would have fared of the vast majority of competent officers had not been executed or sent to the prisons(Which was basically execution. Less than 10% of the Red Officers sent to the prisons in the 30s were alive by 1941). I mean, Stalin even had the man who was carrying out these orders(Marshall Blyukher) put to death. The man who organized the tank units(I forget his name at the moment) was killed, as were the men who helped the Republicans during the Spanish Civil War(Khrushchev said that himself).

The Red Army would have done far better in both the initial stages of the Winter War and in Barbarossa. The inept handling of the Winter War convinced Stalin of just how much he had weakened his officer corps, and he went about to restore it. By June 1941, the reorganization effort was so extensive that most officers had their commands for less than a year (re: Glantz), and it's obvious that the Red Army was at its low ebb. As is, the Soviets probably still had the best General Staff of any major belligerent in World War II, so it could have only been that much better with an intact command structure.

Just imagine if Tukhachevsky (the name that you were looking for) and Rokossovsky (quite possibly the best commander in all of World War II) had been able to continue the military reforms to the Deep Battle doctorine instead of being purged. It's especially ugly since Tukhachevsky's excellent theories were villified after his purge, and the Red Army demonstrated just how effective it was in Bagration.

[TigerII]

Bagration is one of the most interesting pieces. I mean, the entire Army Group Center was basically wiped out. There are so many what ifs though that could have won the war for either. What if the Germans hadn't went with the doctrine of wiping out or resettling the people of the USSR. The people in Belarus, Ukraine, and the three Baltic nations welcomed the Germans as liberators. Had the Germans called out to the people of the USSR to rebel against the Communist, the Germans could have had millions of troops and put the areas behind the front in chaos. The peasants who were forced on the state farms, the forced workers in factories. It is insane what they might have accomplished.

The other big problem was German factories didn't produce enough and their logistics were horrible. Many Luftwaffe units ran out of bombs on the first day, due to the Army's overwhelming requirement for support, which was due to the shortage of artillery pieces and motorized vehicles in the Wehrmacht. They also let the Red factories slip away brick by brick.

As much as I enjoy discussing this, I do realize we have taken this topic sort of off track. It has been a pleasure, but I think it is time we halt our conversation, lol. I wouldn't be able to answer for a while as I will be away for the next few days.

It has been fun.