2012-05-19, 05:00 | Link #241 | |
Me at work
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2012-05-19, 06:14 | Link #242 | |
Criminal Unrequitor
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Jul 2010
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2012-05-19, 06:36 | Link #243 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ¯\(º_o)/¯
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Noitamina is one of the last stands that dares to do something different from what everyone else is (milking the same tired Otaku formula over and over again) and even then they've been slowing giving in. Once Noitamina goes, there goes probably the only one consistent and almost all current hope of anime branching out and diversifying into the outside demographics.
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2012-05-22, 02:44 | Link #245 | ||||
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The only reason I can see Noitamina staying on TV is the hopeless struggle to gain mainstream appeal, and it is obviously not working. Based on the ratings. Quote:
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I am not saying that these kind of anime shouldn't be produced, the opposite that being produced with the zones restrictions and demands it hurts them. In addition, innovative anime that did not appeal to the two major consumer bases were produced in the past and several not only were successful experiments, but also sold well. |
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2012-05-25, 16:23 | Link #246 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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What bothers me about the noitaminA fandom, is that they haven't read this thread. Or at least they don't analyze it sufficiently. From the way they talk about how noitaminA is "mainstream", and every otaku show is just a "niche" you would think that there is at least an order of magnitude of difference between their popularity. Rather than just admitting that they WANT noitaminA type shows to keep going and be popular, they create some ideology about how the rest of the anime industry is dying from insularism, and noitaminA is the only cure. You don't ever hear people commenting on how we need more popular shows like K-on, like To-LOVE-ru, or like Madoka, even though they also had ratings similar to modern noitaminA, (plus much better sales). For all intents and purposes, the noitaminA audience is as much of a niche as the viewers of these. Maybe they are not from the the "stereotypical otaku", demographic, but that 2% minority of the population who are staying up late to watch artsy coming-of-age stories, must still be some sort of anime enthusiasts, rather than just "the mainstream". We don't even know if actually targeting the mainstream would be good for anime as a medium. After all, we don't know what ordinary japanese people want from their anime, but evidently, it's not Josei. We just took the noitaminA fandom's claim at face value, that if anime would be mainstream, more shows woud be like current noitaminA, but it's probably not true. Maybe once noitaminA succeeds and finds the formula to genres that really the whole mainstream of Japan wants to watch, it will be something that it's current Josei-loving niche audience despises. |
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2012-05-25, 18:48 | Link #247 | |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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And yes, the anime industry is growing insular and more stupid with every new light novel adaptation, but that has nothing to do with Noitamina. Also, I don't see why us Noitamina fans should take the blame for your inferiority complex, just because we like to express what we consider good anime. This is not a Noitamina VS the rest of anime. But Noitamina sure produces some good titles -- and if you can't stomach that opinion without feeling inferior about your tastes, then maybe the Noitamina discussion isn't for you. |
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2012-05-25, 19:00 | Link #248 |
Banned
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Sorry for bringing this up with such a rant... but I never imagined fans in camps narrowed by tropes flaming each other. My criticism for Noitamina-fandom is similar when it comes to ecchi-freaks, shounen-plot-loving-fanboys, jousei-jaded-OLs, etc, etc.
My point was that Noitamina-pursuits on a high viewership zone (all things considered) is limiting itself, and could do much better if it did not strive to popularize its artistic pursuits, but enrich them saved of the limitations that mass-consumption enforces, as other creators did/do/will when they find an appropriate vehicle to do so, and IMHO Tokyo's prime time air-waves aren't one If anything, I lament the lost opportunities of some shows that were struggled artistically by the zone in order to gain mainstream appeal. |
2012-05-25, 19:12 | Link #249 | |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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2012-05-25, 19:42 | Link #250 |
Banned
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I just wanted to clarify my perspective... I partially agree E.S, as well as you and others here about Noitamina, and other shows... I think that pursuing mainstream appeal is the wrong way to go. If the mainstream can appreciate the innovative elements in Noitamina shows won't be achieved by a jaded housewife that leaves her TV on while the whole family is eating dinner, frankly the opposite, the mainstream must be able to appreciate, if not identify and pursue such elements independent of the context they appear in
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2012-05-25, 21:09 | Link #251 |
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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Well I don't think many people would categorize Tsuritama, a story about fishing, aliens, secret agents, and male bonding, as mainstream anything. noitaminA was more exciting and more distinctive when it was making shows that targeted adults. It does that less nowadays, but both Tsuritama and Sakamichi no Apollon give me hope that the producers can find shows that appeal to adults and teens and, one might hope, broaden the age spectrum of anime viewers. Moyashimon Redux has the potential to do that as well; I hope it succeeds.
I don't think it's appropriate to have an extended discussion of noitaminA in this thread. Please consider continuing this discussion in the noitaminA thread itself.
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2012-05-26, 06:17 | Link #252 | ||
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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Yeah, maybe theoratically, auteurish live action films could also gather a bigger base "than anime alone ever will". But in practice, the type of shows that noitaminA airs, couldn't do the same. You know what else is a much bigger group than the traditional anime audience? The idol fandom, especially the AKB48 audience. Yet I don't hear any growth-obsessed noitaminA fan hoping that AKB0048 will save the anime industry, by bringing in new viewers. Apparently, growth only counts if we like it's direction. The problem is, that you are mixing vague feelings about what ought to be popular, and what deserves to be popular, with hard facts. Here is a particularly good example, the ratings of a week from 2 years ago, with Angel Beats, Durarara, and K-on all beating on the noitaminA of the time. While it's not an average week, (noitaminA was somehow weak in that season, and we rarely have 3 late night shows at that level at the same time), it's still a reasonable example of how the fandom's exaggeration about noitaminA's special mainstreamness is a myth. It shows that the individual shows in it are not necessarily on a different level of popularity from "otaku anime" as a whole. I like most noitaminA shows. You might even call me a "noitaminA fan", since I'm also rooting for these shows to be big hits, (just as I'm rooting for other shows that I like). But I dislike the "noitaminA fandom", as a group that portrays itself objectively superior on a pseudoscientific basis, essentially pretending that their shows already are much bigger than anything else. Quote:
I made a statement about how the noitaminA fandom tends to mix up their personal preferences of liking noitaminA's style with their ideological belief that noitaminA is inherently much more mainstream than "otaku anime". I provided ratings examples from this thread, on why the latter isn't necessarily true. And you reacted to this, by assuming that I made an attack on your tastes about good anime. If you can't stomach a discussion about audience sizes without derailing it into how much you like noitaminA, then maybe the TV ratings discussion isn't for you. |
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2012-05-26, 08:20 | Link #253 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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For stories themselves, maybe anime isn't the right medium for them. If I weren't an animation fan, I wouldn't mind seeing [C] in live action form. Quote:
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2012-05-26, 12:23 | Link #254 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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The real money is always DVD/BD sales. Unfortunately noitaminA rarely does well on that front...
That said, are we sure this decline in ratings is unique to noitaminA? Could it instead be more symptomatic of a general decline in TV viewing? For instance,I'd be interested in finding out how these noitaminA shows do on japanese bittorrent and streaming networks. It would also be interesting to know how ratings for Anime as a whole have changed. It could be that ratings as a whole are declining, as more and more Japanese otaku switch from expensive cable to simple downloading the shows. Fortunately for the anime industry as a whole, they've never gotten much money from advertising and ratings, so it shouldn't hit hard if DVDs continue to sell as they used to (and I don't see that changing, given how they play to hardcore collectors). That does leave noitaminA in a tricky position though. I think a lot of Anime fans would be sad to see noitaminA dissappear, it's the only place where you can find Josei and other unconventional anime. Maybe it will switch back to 1 series per season first though. |
2012-05-26, 17:44 | Link #255 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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I think everyone's aware that noitaminA has been tanking and that mainstream popularity is an increasingly distant dream. Nevertheless, it isn't going to stop fans from raging at Fuji (who really aren't at fault) for changing up their programming. Quote:
For, Fuji, it's a beneficial setup because a) Aniplex and Sony Music help fund some of their own initiatives b) They benefit whenever one of Aniplex's offerings succeed. An example of this working in their favour might be the failures of Fractale, [C], and Un-Go. Those projects failed, but the losses would've been offset by their royalty streams from AnoHana and Guilty Crown. |
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2012-05-26, 19:51 | Link #256 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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There's also the possibility that they end out cannibalizing their own sales, particularly if they have two shows of a similiar type airing at once. Maybe that's why they've been airing more "mainstream" (IE otaku oriented) shows lately, there's only so many non-mainstream shows the industry can support at once, most of the money is still in Otaku shows. The only alternative is to be aiming at selling a tie in (Like Kaiji with the live action movies etc.). The main thing in noitaminA's favour is that the viewing (and paying...) audience for Anime is aging, yielding perhaps more opportunities for alternative programming aimed at older demographics. If we consider that the current generation of anime started with Evangelion in 1995, those who were 16 at the time of watching Evangelion are now 33. Those were 16 when Macross aired in 1982 are now 46. But I think the aging of the Eva cohort might have the most interesting effects. It's an interesting time. |
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2012-05-26, 20:29 | Link #257 | ||
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The mainstream you mentioned is an easy consumer base for japanese animation that for anything decent (by their standards) will at least return the investment. Having wider appeal is very tricky, since incorporating elements that other "groups" will appreciate can easily cut off the sales on that base. Only SHAFT and Sunrise have managed the past few years to gain wider appeal and not lose appeal to that "mainstream". |
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2012-05-27, 04:02 | Link #258 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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Well, Noitamina's bread and butter were adaptations of highly popular manga. The reason why Noitamina even came into existence was because Shueisha wanted Honey & Clover to have an anime adaptation before turning it into a live-action movie adaptation. One thing led to another, Noitamina adapted many popular manga (with Nodame Cantabile probably yielding the most profits), now that popular manga geiser is all but dried up.
One thing I do like about Noitamina's producers is that they have guts to tackle original anime, since the anime industry has traditionally been a trade of adapting stories. |
2012-05-27, 06:48 | Link #259 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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As it is right now, only the more "artistic" anime are being tailored towards adults, the vast majority of the bread and butter of anime, the equivalent of "genre fiction" in books, is being aimed at teens. It's always going to be genre fiction that will be the most succesful. So I think the solution here is to take pre-existing anime genres and "adultify" them. For instance, instead of the harem being a teen and various girls from his school, why not a harem consisting of a young salaryman, and various office ladies from his work place? It would be very easy to transplant the genre wholesale into such a setting. I'm fairly sure it's also been done in manga already as well. In fact many of the original harem were not around school aged teens (think Love Hina) Likewise, rather then have every mecha pilot be a teen, why not put them in their 20s, or 30s instead? In fact, tiger and bunny is just such a mainstream example, at it's core it's a fairly lighthearted superhero story, which has been done a fair number of times in anime and manga. The difference was that rather then the protagonist being another teen suddenly discovering his powers, they used a 30 something washed up father, working as a hero like it's a job, leading to new possibilities for plot lines and drama. And the show was very succesful, selling upwards of 20k per volume, with all kinds of tie ins and maybe a sequel in the works. Likewise, they could also try animating popular manga genres aimed at adults, like salaryman manga. I'd say the future of anime is not with noitaminA (much as I love the block), but with more shows appearing like Tiger and Bunny. We need all the light entertaining elements that make up the majority of anime, and what gives it it's appeal in the first place, but use those elements in settings that include issues more pertinent to adults. As a 23 year old, while I enjoy the occasional bout of school antics, I'm finding it more difficult to empathise which such characters. I've realised that the world is a lot bigger then school. |
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2012-05-27, 08:00 | Link #260 |
Criminal Unrequitor
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Honestly, is it that bad to have one block that tries something different from the norm? I get the whole "they could be more popular if they became more mainstream (the anime mainstream)" and they already did that with varying success (GC and Anohana). But what I like about noitaminA is that they show things than normally would rarely be produced. Stuff like Un-Go, Hourou Musuko, Kuragehime, Shiki etc etc would not be produced if it weren't programmed on noitaminA.
Honestly the mainstream stuff WILL be produced but it doesn't have to be on noitaminA does it? Especially from big josei fans (I'd have to say me included) who rarely get their favorite genre shown on a block outside of noitaminA.
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