Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[willyvereb]

Well, I started talking about Herc then I compared his deeds to that absolutely strange thing Shirou did(the one I've been pissed about and mentioned most of my post in this thread).
Anyways if I remember well Heracles got help in a form of fire caming down from the sky or something like that. But according to a quick look on Wikipedia it probably isn't the official myth.
Well it only explains a bit why Heracles could break off from the Chains of Enkidu.(but still, he never did such an outrangeous thing in his life like that...his strenght was just strenght,extraordinally, but still comprehessible normally...not so overpowered like beating something with purestrenght normally impossible to do in such way. It isn't Dragon Ball)
The thing with Shirou and the idiot-ball with Gilgamesh still bugs me.

[orangejuicetang]

Keep in mind that Herc prob already had A+ strength even without the mad enhancement. With it, he would be even more crazily strong, potentially approaching ex, which simply means can't be measured. And as I have pointed out before, Gilgamesh being arrogant is nothing new. Gilgamesh was just being himself. I didn't really see him act out of character during the fight.

[ecchi-ru]

Wow its weird to think that this thread started 5 and a half years ago.

Many things have changed since then. (Last time there were no translations )

[swtrooper42]

And in 5 1/2 years we get:

Fate/stay night
Fate/stay night manga (And one spin-off: Fate/Kaleid Liner Prisma Illya)
Fate/hollow ataraxia
Fate/stay night anime
Fate/zero
Fate/tiger colosseum (and sequel)
Fate/stay night Réalta Nua
Fate/unlimited codes

And now:
Fate/stay night : Unlimited Blade Works.

I love this franchise.

[sirlancerlot]

Originally Posted by swtrooper42

And in 5 1/2 years we get:

Fate/stay night
Fate/stay night manga (And one spin-off: Fate/Kaleid Liner Prisma Illya)
Fate/hollow ataraxia
Fate/stay night anime
Fate/zero
Fate/tiger colosseum (and sequel)
Fate/stay night Réalta Nua
Fate/unlimited codes

And now:
Fate/stay night : Unlimited Blade Works.

I love this franchise.

Still waiting on the translation for Fate/Hollow Ataraxia. I've read somewhere this translation is going as slow as a snail. I wouldn't be surprised if we get it AFTER the movie comes out. Oh well I can wait.

[kakakka]

It'll come...someday.

I think it'll pretty much a big project to do. There are so many options to take in game compared to the F/SN Visual game. More options = more translating needed (and tweaking too)

[orangejuicetang]

I was playing through the game again recently, and I found a line that basically stated that Shirou considered "a hero is a person who saves people who normally can't be saved". I just found that interesting due to all the definition of what constitutes a hero discussions that have occurred in the fate/stay night section.

[amebasan]

wow...a 5year+ thread and still going.
lots of 'fate' series junkie here...
i think i found a place around here

amebasan here!
1st time knowing fate is when the fate/stay night anime came out.
LOVE it.


actually i stumble upon this site cuz i cant seem to play my dl'ed fate stay nightT_T
does the trick 5 years ago still work?
(fate/ unlimited code makes me so wanna play more fate stuff.)




P.S...crush on saber>_<

[OctoberFlames]

Loved the story and all, but there's one thing I don't understand:

Wouldn't a sniper take care of most masters? Armed with a .50/.308 cal rifle, a decent shot with the right training can probably eliminate masters at a range of 1.5-2km.

If you refer to the IRA sniper incidents of 1990 to 1997, it's been pretty well established that snipers can work perfectly well in urban environments. Also, since these are generally regular folks who have zero magical connection, sensing them should be impossible for both masters and servants.

Hiring a non-magical assassin should be the logical choice for any master in the Holy Grail war. A good sniper makes servants obsolete.

[sirlancerlot]

Originally Posted by OctoberFlames

Loved the story and all, but there's one thing I don't understand:

Wouldn't a sniper take care of most masters? Armed with a .50/.308 cal rifle, a decent shot with the right training can probably eliminate masters at a range of 1.5-2km.

If you refer to the IRA sniper incidents of 1990 to 1997, it's been pretty well established that snipers can work perfectly well in urban environments. Also, since these are generally regular folks who have zero magical connection, sensing them should be impossible for both masters and servants.

Hiring a non-magical assassin should be the logical choice for any master in the Holy Grail war. A good sniper makes servants obsolete.

did you only watch the anime?

bc....

Spoiler for F/SN VN spoiler:

True assassin could not be detected iirc in the thrid route (HF). Even though he could not be detected, his "sniper"-like darts were still dodged or repelled even though they are supposed to be quick as bullets when TrueAssassin throws them. So, if this is true I'm thinking that servants can dodge bullets based off of pure instinct(Saber) and survival tactics(Lancer).

i might be wrong tho. that's just what I think.

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by OctoberFlames

Loved the story and all, but there's one thing I don't understand:

Wouldn't a sniper take care of most masters? Armed with a .50/.308 cal rifle, a decent shot with the right training can probably eliminate masters at a range of 1.5-2km.

If you refer to the IRA sniper incidents of 1990 to 1997, it's been pretty well established that snipers can work perfectly well in urban environments. Also, since these are generally regular folks who have zero magical connection, sensing them should be impossible for both masters and servants.

Hiring a non-magical assassin should be the logical choice for any master in the Holy Grail war. A good sniper makes servants obsolete.

Actually that's what Emiya Kirigitsu did with some variations.
But generally the mages are too proud to use anything from the modern technology. It's a miracle that the Tohsaka manison has even a phone.(And probably thanks to Rin).
And they're a way too proud to do something like that. Even hiring another magus for assistance is unforgivable thing...not to mention a non-magus assassin.


Against Servants physical weapons are useless. So either some kind of magic or spiritual that able to hurt them. And perhaps most of the Servants have some way to sense those kind of attacks and defend against them. Those Servants are not just powerfull and skilled, but experienced too. In a crazier world where magic exist I guess they saw much more extreme things than a sniper. With Magic it may even possible they(marksmen with similar range) existed back then.
And even if they aren't much experienced in battle(like Caster) they have some exceedingly advanced magic. There are Bounded Fields capable detecting tresspassers. With minor modifications it's possible to create a Bounded Field combined with a defensive mechanism to deflect those kind of actions.

So if the Servant stays near the Master he's/she's safe. And even without them we have few mages capable deffending against those kind of tactics(Like Kotomine, a former exorcist...a "living" terminator, Or Kayneth from the former war)


But in the end it's more of a matter of pride. The mages are beliving in the absolute superiority of magic. They're somewhat hardheaded. They see the use of modern machines as an act against honor.
P.S.:1-2KM? You're wrong. Even with an .50 cal rifle sniping from 1km is kind of a gamble. Not to mention with those hauses and all, we should be glad if they manage to snipe from 700m.

[OctoberFlames]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Actually that's what Emiya Kirigitsu did with some variations.
But generally the mages are too proud to use anything from the modern technology. It's a miracle that the Tohsaka manison has even a phone.(And probably thanks to Rin).
And they're a way too proud to do something like that. Even hiring another magus for assistance is unforgivable thing...not to mention a non-magus assassin.


Against Servants physical weapons are useless. So either some kind of magic or spiritual that able to hurt them. And perhaps most of the Servants have some way to sense those kind of attacks and defend against them. Those Servants are not just powerfull and skilled, but experienced too. In a crazier world where magic exist I guess they saw much more extreme things than a sniper. With Magic it may even possible they(marksmen with similar range) existed back then.
And even if they aren't much experienced in battle(like Caster) they have some exceedingly advanced magic. There are Bounded Fields capable detecting tresspassers. With minor modifications it's possible to create a Bounded Field combined with a defensive mechanism to deflect those kind of actions.

So if the Servant stays near the Master he's/she's safe. And even without them we have few mages capable deffending against those kind of tactics(Like Kotomine, a former exorcist...a "living" terminator, Or Kayneth from the former war)


But in the end it's more of a matter of pride. The mages are beliving in the absolute superiority of magic. They're somewhat hardheaded. They see the use of modern machines as an act against honor.
P.S.:1-2KM? You're wrong. Even with an .50 cal rifle sniping from 1km is kind of a gamble. Not to mention with those hauses and all, we should be glad if they manage to snipe from 700m.

If the master is stupid enough to stand out on an open bridge like Shirou, the kill shouldn't be too difficult, although my initial range estimates might have been too high. Also, kill the master, kill the servant. Taking out a regular person should be easy. There are so many ways you could go about taking out a master, if you think about it. A supply of Sarin gas should be all you need to win a Holy Grail War.

Admittedly, someone like Tohsaka probably wouldn't even consider such options. But for masters like Shinji, the thought doesn't seem too far fetched.

[OctoberFlames]

Originally Posted by sirlancerlot

did you only watch the anime?

bc....

Spoiler for F/SN VN spoiler:

True assassin could not be detected iirc in the thrid route (HF). Even though he could not be detected, his "sniper"-like darts were still dodged or repelled even though they are supposed to be quick as bullets when TrueAssassin throws them. So, if this is true I'm thinking that servants can dodge bullets based off of pure instinct(Saber) and survival tactics(Lancer).

i might be wrong tho. that's just what I think.

Servants can handle those things fine. They probably won't even be affected by them.

But masters are a different thing altogether.

[willyvereb]

Well, Shinji is dishonourable and a coward, but other than his family he has nothing special. And you can't expect him to use poison gas even if he has a way to get it. He may be a good student, but he's quite level-headed.

And the others either aren't as serious(Kozuki-sensei, Kotomine), or too honorable(Shirou, Illya,Rin) to use theese.
You know even if it's called a war it doesn't mean it's like a world war or something.
And about the sniper again. When you get a Master's identity and location then he/she is pretty much in a grave situation. He/she may manage to fend off one attack, but two or even six? No matter how good the master and the Servant they shouldn't be able to handle it.
So when you have a chance to use non-magician assassins or something like that then it's already a situation when you're on the winning side. So there's no need for them.

Anyways FSN has more obvious plotholes like how the hell Rin managed to punch Caster...

[rastilin]

And the others either aren't as serious(Kozuki-sensei, Kotomine), or too honorable(Shirou, Illya,Rin) to use theese.

I doubt it's as simple as not being serious. Attempting to handle chemicals or explosives without the proper training is more likely to result in some horrible but oddly humorous accident. Someone trained in warfare would understand the risks enough to not get involved; it's not as simple as following instructions off the internet.

Anyways FSN has more obvious plotholes like how the hell Rin managed to punch Caster...

Reinforcement. Caster doesn't have any actual combat skills beyond the presence of mind to fight back. She's more the tech servant. Rin is a master level martial artist.

But masters are a different thing altogether.

Right, most servants have a power that lets them know when their side is being attacked and to parry properly. But the servants aren't always there to be on guard. So Kiritsugu's plan was to wait till the servant is far enough away that they can't react in time, then take the shot. He also uses claymore mines and other surprises.

[frenze12]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Anyways FSN has more obvious plotholes like how the hell Rin managed to punch Caster...

Wouldn't really call that a plothole
1: Caster isn't a close combat fighter so her fighting abilities are pretty much zero here.
2: Rin had some training in martial arts add some strenghtening bursts to this and you pretty much get a decent fighter. Also caster was unknown to this fact so she wasn't excepting it either. (Caster was having a wft-moment when Rin jumped out to her)

3: Change and planning, Rin knew she couldn't last long against casters magic so she found a way, preventing her casting from being spelled by beating her to a pulp.

With other words she was just finding the right moment to take caster by suprise.

[frenze12]

If I had to say what I found a real plothole is the fact that Shirou (UBW) endured EA without losing some limbs.

[willyvereb]

Yeah. And don't forget Kirigitsu's rather irregular magics. He isn't a magekiller for nothing.

And right, handling chemicals is dangerous. Not to mention that you must properly set it in a place where no one else can get it. Except if you don't mind the death of bystanders...

Reinforcement? Well, then why Azzoth wouldn't be able to hurt a classical Servant? Rin said in HF that because Saber Alter has a proper corporeal body he's able to hurt her with that sword/dagger. It means otherwise don't.
The Servants are spiritual beings much like a ghost with semi-corporeal body. Normal physical mean have no effect on them.
I don't think a simple reinforcement can do it. And if yes then why they didn't explain it at that scene?
Perhaps Kozuki has the same problem, but because he's on the other side it could be a mystery.(and simply theorised it's Caster's magic on him that allows it).

But then there's the fun with pranana.
Like in Archer's case in UBW and Saber's in Fate.
Honestly, she shouldn't get enough prana from Shirou(after two H-scenes) to use Excalibur 5 times after that. Shirou doesn't even have enough capacity to store enough prana for a low-powered Excalibur shot!

[orangejuicetang]

A great deal of the time, Servants are close to their masters. We've seen servants block a exploding projectile shot at them at speeds of mach 3 from 1 km away. Plus, the important thing is, you have to find the master's identity first. Generally the master keeps their identity hidden as much as possible. And then you have to find a time when the servant isn't anywhere close to the master. And then you have to be sure that the master your targeting doesn't have any way to defend himself (Kayneth from f/z for example, would have his mercury thing automatically defend him from the sniper shot.) And the fact that you were able to discover the master and a time when their servant is away, an ambush with your servant would be much better. Looking at fate/stay night alone, Ilya was almost always in her castle in the forest, so not much luck there. Assassin's master turned out to be the mountain, and sniping the mountain wouldn't be much use. Shirou generally walked out in the open, so he could be a targeted, but he also had Avalon embedded inside him, so I would give him a 50-50 chance of surviving. Rin had Archer around in spirit form a lot, and it would kinda suck to suddenly see your bullet blocked, and then 1 second later, your location being blown up by a broken phantasm fired by archer. I had the impression that Caster was keeping an eye on Kuzuki, and plus chances are that she had some weird magic on him that would probably protect him. Kotomine spent almost his entire time in that church of his. With Shinji, it depends on whether he has Rider with him or not. Yes, than he survives, no, than he dies. But the important thing is that you have to discover who the master was first. Kotomine and Kuzuki were operating on most people's radars, Shinji didn't have any magic circuits, so most people wouldn't suspect him, Shirou is an amateur magus who doesn't really have any idea what's going on, so if he didn't walk around with Saber, he'd probably would have been unsuspected as well. Really, the only two people that would be easy to suspect as masters off the top of the bat would be Rin and Ilya. And remember, with this sniper, you better make sure he doesn't see any servants materialize, or else you have to kill him. And if you don't, the entire mage association is going to come down on you and his ass. And plus, as mentioned before, most magus are simply too proud to even consider it.

[frenze12]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

But then there's the fun with pranana.
Like in Archer's case in UBW and Saber's in Fate.
Honestly, she shouldn't get enough prana from Shirou(after two H-scenes) to use Excalibur 5 times after that. Shirou doesn't even have enough capacity to store enough prana for a low-powered Excalibur shot!

She used it 4 times (novel) + the reason was because when she got her sheath back from shirou her mana increased (a lot).

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Rin said in HF that because Saber Alter has a proper corporeal body he's able to hurt her with that sword/dagger.

A normal dager still couldn't kill Alter Saber hurt, yes... kill, no ... . That's way they used the azoth dagger. Remember the usage of the azoth dagger is that it amplifies your magic. So you are actually beating her with magic.

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Perhaps Kozuki has the same problem, but because he's on the other side it could be a mystery.(and simply theorised it's Caster's magic on him that allows it).

Caster only enhanced kozuki's fists and it was simular to strenghtening magic (she didn't increase kozuki's mystic level or whatever you call it). And that Rin used short burst strenghtening and not continue like shirou (she has more experience after all) is more than enough to hurt a servant like caster.