Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Discussion / Poll

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Well, we don't know how much later she showed up, and whether she just arrived. Judging by the end of episode 7, Homura arrived quite some time after Sayaka had engaged the witch.

Well I won't try to use this as leverage or anything then. But then you shouldn't be able to either, since we don't know WHEN she got here.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I suppose our definition of friendship might differ, then. It's fairly difficult to actually protect someone with a gun, and there would be other options I would pursue, but for the sake of your analogy, I would buy a gun and protect him. To me, that's what friendship is; the willingness to stick your neck out for someone. For an acquaintance, probably not. But for a friend, yes.

More or less what I mean by my analogy is to actually put yourself directly in harm's way to protect your friend because your friend got himself involved in a situation of his or her own volition. So it doesn't need to be a gun.

But I guess then we have different values on what exactly a friendship means. I personally don't have anyone like that currently that I would do that for. I'm not sure if Madoka herself does either, but that would be speculation. If you have people like that in your life, then I would say you are a very lucky individual .

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Kyoko is willing to talk once the revelation was made. But we're working from 20/20 hindsight here, and we can't do that. We can only look at things as they happen. Kyoko deliberately stopped Sayaka from killing the familiar. She deliberately said to let it feed on humans until it became a witch (whether kill or otherwise). Sayaka wants to protect the people of the town.

What compromise or negotiation could there be? And keep in mind, while you're talking things out, that familiar is out there, doing what it wants to ordinary innocent humans.

And even now, it could be iffy. Kyoko said to Homura "It's okay, because it's a witch, not a familiar." That seems to hint that she still might stop Sayaka from killing a familiar. What do you propose for negotiation?

The point is that she never even tried to talk it out. The first step in a disagreement should always be discussion. Aggressive action should be left for after that. I think that's all Madoka wanted at the very least.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Well, I guess we would disagree on this, then, as you can see from my friendship response above. Had it been me in Madoka's place, and Sayaka made the contract, I probably would have, too, so I could help protect her.

Ah well then .

Originally Posted by Kaijo

That would be speculation.

And even later in the series, Shinji continues to pilot, even after Rei is up to par and Asuka is on the team. So he could have stepped down if he wanted.

Well if you consider a girl who cannot even stand or situp and is coughing blood and bleeding on the floor not proof enough that she was basically incapable of piloting the eva, then OK?

Later in the series Shinji did quit once when he no longer wished to pilot it. He ended up coming back because everything was getting destroyed and he found his own resolution to once again pilot it. But again, he did it for people like Kaiji. By EoE he lost his motivation to pilot once again, until Misato gave him a tiny slimmer of motivation in the end.

Irregardless, we should be more referring to the initial decisions to pilot/become a magical girl. Motivations can change later. Originally Shinji was basically forced into a live or die decision, and he only came there in the first place because of his father.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Ah, I think I see. But it's important to note that Kyoko did end up happy long after the fact. Mami ended up happy, long after the fact, when Madoka made the decision to stand by her.

Which is fine (Even though I think I disagree that Kyoko is necessarily happy). But the wish itself didn't do that. Maybe in Mami's case because it actually gave her the opportunity to be happy again or otherwise she'd be dead... But not for the other magical girls.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Perhaps. If Gen is trying to show that, he hasn't done a good job yet, in my opinion. The only way this would be true, is if Kyoko was right about hope creating an equal sadness. And as far as we know, that's just speculation on her part.

As the poster above me said, I think Gen communicated appropriately that the miracles aren't immediate cure alls to your life's problems. Things go deeper than that. Especially when you're basically selling your soul for the sake of a miracle.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by fukarming

For an audience of a show? Absolutely. From the logical perspective of the character's personality and situation? No.

It is like death flag. We all know if someone talks about getting married after the battle, they will die. However, talking about getting married do not make them weaker or more susceptible to injury.

I'd be careful about flags, heh. Another series I'm following, Fairy Tail, had some "flags" that someone was going to die. But now it looks like he's going to survive.

For Madoka's case, she has no pressing need to become a MG. She knows MG life sucks and scare of it, and only a big enough wish/ miracle will be enough to even that out. She does not have such wish yet. Maybe the next coming up pressing need will be Sayaka at the blink of death, and that depends on how it turns out. In Mami's case, the death is so fast that they are not able to react. Had the witches torture Mami for a prolong period of time, Madoka/ Sayaka might have turned to a MG back then.

I'd argue that you only know if the need is pressing after the fact. Madoka and Sayaka certainly didn't know that there was a pressing need for them to become MG's until Mami died. And for awhile there, it looked like Kyoko was going to kill Sayaka. Seemed like a pressing need. As Mami showed, death can come in an instant. Do we wait until Sayaka's cold body hits the floor before deciding there was a pressing need?

At this stage, Madoka would help Sayaka more if she could somehow make Sayaka and Kamijo become a couple, rather than becoming a MG.

I would agree that she could help here, but both methods aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, it will be somewhat counterproductive if Madoka brings the two together, only for the next witch to kill Sayaka.

Also, I would also applaud her if she becomes a MG for taking such thankless task, but that didn't make her not an idiot.

Well, I suppose we'll disagree then. I rarely think of anyone as an idiot, who takes up the mantle to defend their friends and others, whether male or female, regardless of idealistic or cynical series.

Originally Posted by totoum

Do you have a quote to back that up?She's accepted her fate but I don't recall her saying she's be happy about it.

It's in her overall conversation with Sayaka, talking about how she can do anything with the power she got, that it's not something to regret, smiling a lot. She doesn't seem to me to be someone who is in despair. I suppose "content" might be a better word, but she's definitely not angsting.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

More or less what I mean by my analogy is to actually put yourself directly in harm's way to protect your friend because your friend got himself involved in a situation of his or her own volition. So it doesn't need to be a gun.

But I guess then we have different values on what exactly a friendship means. I personally don't have anyone like that currently that I would do that for. I'm not sure if Madoka herself does either, but that would be speculation. If you have people like that in your life, then I would say you are a very lucky individual .

Not many, and some have come and gone. But I can only speak of what I would do for a friend, and what I value friendship as.

The point is that she never even tried to talk it out. The first step in a disagreement should always be discussion. Aggressive action should be left for after that. I think that's all Madoka wanted at the very least.

And while they are talking it out, people are being tortured and possibly killed. That is okay?

Well if you consider a girl who cannot even stand or situp and is coughing blood and bleeding on the floor not proof enough that she was basically incapable of piloting the eva, then OK?

Well, she'd be sitting in a chair. And hell, we've seen the Eva's go berserk and act on their own, so just throwing anyone in there might have worked. As I remember, that first fight, Shinji passed out anyway and the unit went berserk, and that's how it won.

Which is fine (Even though I think I disagree that Kyoko is necessarily happy). But the wish itself didn't do that. Maybe in Mami's case because it actually gave her the opportunity to be happy again or otherwise she'd be dead... But not for the other magical girls.

Yep. All I wanted to get across was that personal happiness depends upon us, and what we make out of life. Circumstances will hit us all the time, and our reaction is what makes us happy. Consider the biblical story of Job, who lost everything, yet didn't fall into despair and kept his faith.

As the poster above me said, I think Gen communicated appropriately that the miracles aren't immediate cure alls to your life's problems. Things go deeper than that. Especially when you're basically selling your soul for the sake of a miracle.

Now this, I might agree with. I don't know if Gen is deliberately showing us this (themes will pop up that the author didn't intend for, that the audience will see), but I can agree in principle that miracles by themselves will not make one happy. Or maybe they will, for a moment. But you can't fully depend on them. In Sayaka's case, it is up to her to come to terms with herself, and realize her dream. Wishes, miracles, and MG life have nothing to do with that.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I suppose "content" might be a better word, but she's definitely not angsting.

That we can agree on.

[MikeyGrey]

I would agree that she could help here, but both methods aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, it will be somewhat counterproductive if Madoka brings the two together, only for the next witch to kill Sayaka.

she could wish for sayaka's contract to be nullified... wonder if that's possible

[fukarming]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I'd argue that you only know if the need is pressing after the fact. Madoka and Sayaka certainly didn't know that there was a pressing need for them to become MG's until Mami died. And for awhile there, it looked like Kyoko was going to kill Sayaka. Seemed like a pressing need. As Mami showed, death can come in an instant. Do we wait until Sayaka's cold body hits the floor before deciding there was a pressing need?

That is true logically, except Madoka is not that logical a person. It has been proved in her trying to stop the infighting between Kyoko and Sayaka. As you said, both of them don't have much point of talking but Madoka fails to see that. Madoka just believe "fighting is bad" among MG and thus want to stop fighting.

Madoka is a saint if she becomes a MG to help Sayaka, even though she do not have a wish. However, I must say that would be out of character as Madoka did not demonstrate such saintly personality thus far. She is more like a regular person.

The reason I have a different opinion in this issue (I agree with you on Kyube evil debate and wish causation debate) because for Kyube and wish, we are judging them as an audience, as a third person thus we should be as logical as we can. In whether Madoka should become a MG, I believe we should consider from Madoka's perspective.

In short, I would applaud if Madoka becomes MG, but I understand and cannot fault her if she didn't.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by MikeyGrey

she could wish for sayaka's contract to be nullified... wonder if that's possible

Some have speculated that Homura did that for Madoka. But as far as we know, there are no limits on what a wish can be, so it s possible. And I'd have to say, that would really be a friend; instead of just becoming an MG to protect Sayaka, Madoka wishes her out of the game so she can really be with Kamijou.

Originally Posted by fukarming

That is true logically, except Madoka is not that logical a person. It has been proved in her trying to stop the infighting between Kyoko and Sayaka. As you said, both of them don't have much point of talking but Madoka fails to see that. Madoka just believe "fighting is bad" among MG and thus want to stop fighting.

Madoka is a saint if she becomes a MG to help Sayaka, even though she do not have a wish. However, I must say that would be out of character as Madoka did not demonstrate such saintly personality thus far. She is more like a regular person.

A fair point. But it could also be seen as character growth, for her to say:

"No more running. Sayaka is out there risking her life, feeling like she is unable to be with Kamijou, and all I can do is sit here and cry. I'm a horrible friend. Sayaka took the risk that I should have. If we had done so earlier, Mami might have been alive. But I'm not going to make that mistake twice; I'm going to make sure Sayaka stays alive."

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by MikeyGrey

she could wish for sayaka's contract to be nullified... wonder if that's possible

It probably is. But the price Madoka might have to pay for such a wish might not be worth the wish at all.

Ex. Sayaka gets freed, only to die from a witch's attack.

We have seen sad people turn happy for the briefest of moments, only to die before that happiness can be cherished. Perhaps we will see another Faustian tragedy.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

It probably is. But the price Madoka might have to pay for such a wish might not be worth the wish at all.

So, for fear of what might happen in the future, we will allow ourselves to be paralyzed from taking action.

I could offer that bright young woman a job, but she might just spend the money unwisely and end up unhappy, so I'll turn her down.

I could help that poor child that's freezing and starving in the cold, but he'll end up dying someday anyway. He might get run over by a truck after I give him a hot meal.

I could help my friend out with his moving, but he might just crash the truck into a starving orphan on the way to his new place, so I better not.

[MikeyGrey]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

It probably is. But the price Madoka might have to pay for such a wish might not be worth the wish at all.

Ex. Sayaka gets freed, only to die from a witch's attack.

thats an unfortunate hazard of their daily life... cant stop living in fear of death. so long as sayaka herself doesnt go hunting, her chances of untimely death should be considerably slim.
come to think of it, if any wish is possible, why not wish for a permanent end for all the witches/familiars? also supposing madoka does wish for contract nullification, what kind of effect would that have on her own abilities?

[fukarming]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

A fair point. But it could also be seen as character growth, for her to say:

"No more running. Sayaka is out there risking her life, feeling like she is unable to be with Kamijou, and all I can do is sit here and cry. I'm a horrible friend. Sayaka took the risk that I should have. If we had done so earlier, Mami might have been alive. But I'm not going to make that mistake twice; I'm going to make sure Sayaka stays alive."

Let's just say, if Madoka becoming a MG saying all you said above in the beginning of ep 8, I would find that odd as that would be a pretty big leap for Madoka's character development. However, I can see that happening later on if more events are happening to Madoka, e.g. Sayaka died a gruesome death, learning Homura's true intention, then becoming a MG to protect Homura...etc. Of course that is total speculation.

[MikeyGrey]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

A fair point. But it could also be seen as character growth, for her to say:

"No more running. Sayaka is out there risking her life, feeling like she is unable to be with Kamijou, and all I can do is sit here and cry. I'm a horrible friend. Sayaka took the risk that I should have. If we had done so earlier, Mami might have been alive. But I'm not going to make that mistake twice; I'm going to make sure Sayaka stays alive."

as things stand, its not going to happen. she's scared of taking the job but also scared of losing sakaya so she chooses to follow her friend around... quite a nice alternative. madoka isnt gonna let go of such a comfortable position unless something big happens. sayaka's mental evolution might qualify.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And while they are talking it out, people are being tortured and possibly killed. That is okay?

Talking for a few minutes will not have such overreaching effects lol.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Well, she'd be sitting in a chair. And hell, we've seen the Eva's go berserk and act on their own, so just throwing anyone in there might have worked. As I remember, that first fight, Shinji passed out anyway and the unit went berserk, and that's how it won.

Spoiler for Evangelion spoilers:

Alright. First of all it is theortically impossible for rei to truly pilot Evangelion in the manner you're speaking (Berserk mode) because the Evangelion's rightful pilots (Evangelion 1.0 and 2.0) are linked to the souls of the pilots mothers. Why didn't the dummy plug work on Eva 1.0 (Got rejected even though the dummy plug is essentially Rei)? That's because Eva 1.0 has the soul of Shinji's mother and it is Yui that allows only Shinji to be able to pilot the evangelion. The Evangelion would not have been responsive to Rei like it would have to Shinji whatsoever because of this fact. Eva 2.0 went beserk in EoE because it was Asuka's mother in the eva. The evas are directly linked to the pilots.

Why the hell would Gendo try to call his son to pilot Eva 1.0 in the first place if other people could truly pilot it? Why did he specifically have a use for Evangelion 1.0? The answer is clear. Shinji was the one best made to pilot it of the Evangelion pilots, and the only one who could fully utilize its abilities.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Now this, I might agree with. I don't know if Gen is deliberately showing us this (themes will pop up that the author didn't intend for, that the audience will see), but I can agree in principle that miracles by themselves will not make one happy. Or maybe they will, for a moment. But you can't fully depend on them. In Sayaka's case, it is up to her to come to terms with herself, and realize her dream. Wishes, miracles, and MG life have nothing to do with that.

Indeed. Sayaka is creating her own obstacles to her objectives (Romance with Kamijo that is).

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by fukarming

Let's just say, if Madoka becoming a MG saying all you said above in the beginning of ep 8, I would find that odd as that would be a pretty big leap for Madoka's character development. However, I can see that happening later on if more events are happening to Madoka, e.g. Sayaka died a gruesome death, learning Homura's true intention, then becoming a MG to protect Homura...etc. Of course that is total speculation.

Heh, well, I find it a bit odd, then, that Madoka would be an idiot if she became an MG now to protect Sayaka. She already has one example of an MG friend dying, so the lesson is there. Wouldn't she be a bigger idiot if she becomes an MG after Sayaka dies?

Originally Posted by MikeyGrey

as things stand, its not going to happen. she's scared of taking the job but also scared of losing sakaya so she chooses to follow her friend around... quite a nice alternative. madoka isnt gonna let go of such a comfortable position unless something big happens. sayaka's mental evolution might qualify.

Or Sayaka dying. ;p It's only a nice alternative for as long as Sayaka stays alive.

The lesson being: you either have to decide to take hard steps to protect those dear to you, or leave them to die.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Talking for a few minutes will not have such overreaching effects lol.

Speculation. :P We don't know that. But let's say we set a time limit of, say, 3 minutes for negotiation? Is that enough, that if nothing can be resolved after, it is okay to fight? Because the fight is going to take some time, too, so it's not just negotiating time.

And keep in mind, that 3 minutes is time for the familiar to escape, as in you might not be able to find it again. Mami had to give up on the witch to protect Sayaka and Madoka in the beginning. And it took her quite awhile to find it again the next day. So the witch gained a full day to do stuff. Who knows how long it was sitting there, luring people to their deaths? Or luring them into it's barrier to feed on?

Spoiler for Evangelion spoilers:

Alright. First of all it is theortically impossible for rei to truly pilot Evangelion in the manner you're speaking (Berserk mode) because the Evangelion's rightful pilots (Evangelion 1.0 and 2.0) are linked to the souls of the pilots mothers. Why didn't the dummy plug work on Eva 1.0 (Got rejected even though the dummy plug is essentially Rei)? That's because Eva 1.0 has the soul of Shinji's mother and it is Yui that allows only Shinji to be able to pilot the evangelion. The Evangelion would not have been responsive to Rei like it would have to Shinji whatsoever because of this fact. Eva 2.0 went beserk in EoE because it was Asuka's mother in the eva. The evas are directly linked to the pilots.

Why the hell would Gendo try to call his son to pilot Eva 1.0 in the first place if other people could truly pilot it? Why did he specifically have a use for Evangelion 1.0? The answer is clear. Shinji was the one best made to pilot it of the Evangelion pilots, and the only one who could fully utilize its abilities.

But Shinji didn't know that.

Interesting side question to this. If Madoka is an idiot for making the decision to become and MG and fight, does that make Shinji a smart man for running away? Does it make him smart if he decided "Fine, send her in instead, I'm getting out of here" and left, leaving people to die?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by MikeyGrey

as things stand, its not going to happen. she's scared of taking the job but also scared of losing sakaya so she chooses to follow her friend around... quite a nice alternative. madoka isnt gonna let go of such a comfortable position unless something big happens. sayaka's mental evolution might qualify.

Sadly, you're probably right.

Problem is, though, that this is providing Sayaka with little more than moral support. Not saying that's entirely worthless, of course, just that it's not as effective as having a magical girl teammate by your side.

[MikeyGrey]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Or Sayaka dying. ;p It's only a nice alternative for as long as Sayaka stays alive.

The lesson being: you either have to decide to take hard steps to protect those dear to you, or leave them to die.

wouldnt that sort of be the deal breaker? who would she want to protect? since this whole thing started, madoka has become considerably distant from their 3rd friend (forgot her name) and yes her family is in constant danger but thats not immediate. since she's trying her hardest to avoid major change, sayaka's death is more likely to send her into a shock... from guilt, repeated failure, realization of cold reality. she's not the type to hunt for revenge so it'll have to be to protect someone immediately (she's also not the type to think long-term).

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Sadly, you're probably right.

Problem is, though, that this is providing Sayaka with little more than moral support. Not saying that's entirely worthless, of course, just that it's not as effective as having a magical girl teammate by your side.

hope this doesnt continue for too long though. sayaka's regret might turn into hate & madoka will be the first one to be hit with it.

[Archon_Wing]

Ah, finally Eva analogies, lol. I wonder if Madoka will be the new Shinji...

I mean, for Evangelion, it was proof that being a main character didn't mean you were obliged to fight for good and all that good stuff. Shinji being forced, against his will, in a situation where he really had no good reason to fight. He was bad at it, and he didn't want to. It led to bad shit when the world depends on someone who wants nothing to do with it.

"Why me?"

He could justify it at first, but the idealism rapidly waned as per the series as it learned that they really weren't fighting for honorable motives. But the alternative was much worse, and it almost felt like there was nobody left to save, nobody left to care about.

"Why me?"

Madoka is a character trapped in similar circumstances; she just doesn't have the personality it takes to save the day. But, unlike Shinji, she was spared the hard choices, with everyone seemingly sacrificing for her. She wants to do something, but honestly, who wants to fight forever? Who wants to die?

Sorry, I'll never blame either of them for not fighting. I wouldn't want to die either. Heroism sounds cool and all, but come on; who gets the credit for the war? It's always those in charge that get it and benefits anyways, not the nameless soldiers who gave their lives. Every so called hero benefits from the sacrifices of would be heroes that failed and died. For every hero we get, we get 100 would have beens, pushing up daisies and feeding the soil. Let's be honest, most of us are the 100 if we tried.

Besides, if Madoka tranforms much to Homura's ire, and bad shit happens because she can't handle it, then their efforts at protecting her have gone to waste. What does Madoka have anyways? She's kind. It doesn't cut it out in this world. Nanoha's iron will would have been better, but Madoka's not Nanoha. Well I guess we have Sayaka... oh wait.

Heroes are rare. It's easy to succeed if you have talent. It's much harder to do it if you're just someone else. But if Madoka succeds, that will be great. I have a much greater respect for a character that can excise all their personal demons and accomplish something they weren't supposed to instead of being handed everything by the gods. (Batman > Superman)

Shinji did. But we'll have to see about Madoka.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Speculation. :P We don't know that. But let's say we set a time limit of, say, 3 minutes for negotiation? Is that enough, that if nothing can be resolved after, it is okay to fight? Because the fight is going to take some time, too, so it's not just negotiating time.

And keep in mind, that 3 minutes is time for the familiar to escape, as in you might not be able to find it again. Mami had to give up on the witch to protect Sayaka and Madoka in the beginning. And it took her quite awhile to find it again the next day. So the witch gained a full day to do stuff. Who knows how long it was sitting there, luring people to their deaths? Or luring them into it's barrier to feed on?

It's fine because yours is speculation as well ^^. But yes even if it was just 3 minutes. Either way I think Kyoko let the familiar already get away...

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But Shinji didn't know that.

Interesting side question to this. If Madoka is an idiot for making the decision to become and MG and fight, does that make Shinji a smart man for running away? Does it make him smart if he decided "Fine, send her in instead, I'm getting out of here" and left, leaving people to die?

But Gendo sure as hell did. And Shinji knew Rei couldn't realistically pilot it. Shinji also didn't know about berserk mode in the first place, so your point is moot.

Anyhow my whole point about this all thing was that Shinji and Madoka's situations are quite different. I don't like this comparison one bit.

If I have to answer... If Madoka became a magical girl just because she wants to help her friend (Sole motivation) that would be stupid because if Sayaka ended up dieing for some reason, why is she a magical girl now? Flimsy motivation IMO. If Shinji ran away from the problem placed in front of him he'd be a coward, but understandably so. Shinji isn't obligated to pilot the Evangelion, but if he holds any value in his life and those around him, he HAS to. Madoka doesn't HAVE to, and she wouldn't do it to please those around them and gain their acknowledgement like Shinji.

[Triple_R]

Well, Walpurgis Night is on the way.

To a certain small degree, we already know the "Main Event" for this anime.

It will very likely be...

Magical Girls (whoevers left standing at the time)

vs.

Walpurgis Night


Now, this "main event" could later morph into something more specific, but this much is a fairly safe bet right now.

If Madoka's entire city is threatened (which would likely include her family), then I would hope that might change her mind about becoming a magical girl.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Sorry, I'll never blame either of them for not fighting. I wouldn't want to die either. Heroism sounds cool and all, but come on; who gets the credit for the war? It's always those in charge that get it and benefits anyways, not the nameless soldiers who gave their lives. Every so called hero benefits from the sacrifices of would be heroes that failed and died. For every hero we get, we get 100 would have beens, pushing up daisies and feeding the soil. Let's be honest, most of us are the 100 if we tried.

That's awfully cynical of you, Archon, and I have to say that I very strongly disagree with you here.

To this day, the French annually honor the sacrifices that British and Canadian soldiers made at The Battle of Vimy Ridge back in WWI.

Almost 100 years have passed since that brutal battle, and yet the sacrifices that the British and Canadians made in it is still honored and remembered to this day.

The people who died in that battle aren't considered "would have beens", they're considered heroes just as much as the surviving British and Canadian soldiers were.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by MikeyGrey

wouldnt that sort of be the deal breaker? who would she want to protect?

Ideally, Sayaka, and not just from witches, but from other MG's like Kyoko. Kyube told her only another MG could come between two other MGs, and he was right. As an MG herself, Madoka would change the balance of power. Kyoko wouldn't want to fight two at once, and Madoka has already been told how great her power would be. She could accomplish what she desires: protecting Sayaka without having either of them fight.

Oh, and the people of the town, heh.

Instead, I suppose you might be right in that it will take Sayaka's death and/or mental breakdown for her to decide to make the choice. A repeated lesson that she didn't learn from earlier.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

It's fine because yours is speculation as well ^^. But yes even if it was just 3 minutes. Either way I think Kyoko let the familiar already get away...

This is true. But the longer you wait, the farther away it can get. The trail gets colder as time passes, so with each minute, that translates exponentially into making it harder to find.

And this is just in waiting to engage in negotiations where it should have been clear that none would work. We clearly heard rationales from both Sayaka and Kyoko, and they weren't compatible.

Lastly, Madoka didn't engage in any negotiation anyway. All she could do was stand there and whine "Stop! please stop! Someone make them stop! Someone who isn't me!"

But Gendo sure as hell did. And Shinji knew Rei couldn't realistically pilot it. Shinji also didn't know about berserk mode in the first place, so your point is moot.

But he'd be an idiot if he put himself in harm's way for people he didn't even know, wouldn't he?

Anyhow my whole point about this all thing was that Shinji and Madoka's situations are quite different. I don't like this comparison one bit.

Apologies, but I feel they are quite related. Both are in a situation where they could help people and save lives, if they stepped into the line of fire. Shinji ultimately did, to protect Rei, someone he didn't know. Madoka isn't, to protect Sayaka, someone who she claims is her friend.

That speaks volumes to me.

If I have to answer... If Madoka became a magical girl just because she wants to help her friend (Sole motivation) that would be stupid because if Sayaka ended up dieing for some reason, why is she a magical girl now? Flimsy motivation IMO.

You're basing it on unknowns. It's like me refusing to help my friend pack his stuff into his truck. Because if I did, then he might get into a car wreck and die, and then all my hard work would have come to nothing. We can't fear of what might happen, stop us from living today. And we all die eventually, anyway, so the important part is to spend time together, today.

If Shinji ran away from the problem placed in front of him he'd be a coward, but understandably so. Shinji isn't obligated to pilot the Evangelion, but if he holds any value in his life and those around him, he HAS to. Madoka doesn't HAVE to, and she wouldn't do it to please those around them and gain their acknowledgement like Shinji.

Strange. Given that the witches are a threat, and Kyoko is clearly stronger than Sayaka, and Homura was quite prepared to beat Sayaka down... if Madoka held any value in her life, Sayaka's, and those around them, she would do it. The rationale seems the same, but different reasonings, and I must admit, I'm perplexed as to why.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Problem is, though, that this is providing Sayaka with little more than moral support. Not saying that's entirely worthless, of course, just that it's not as effective as having a magical girl teammate by your side.

Mmm... Sayaka's major issues are emotional. Her pain regarding Kamijo and her "zombie" body. Add Madoka becoming a magical girl for her sake to the mix and she would feel so guilty about it it would destroy her emotionally speaking....

It could happen, if you expect this series to end in a huge tragedy. But I don't see it really. Madoka isn't going to make a contract for Sayaka's sake, she's not that stupid, you'll see.