Kyoto Animation: Studio discussion, speculation, and whatnot.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I really don't think he was. Are you going to say that there aren't a lot of people out there who bought and tuned into K-ON! simply because it was "popular?"

How would that be any different than any other popular show?

There's a good chance I wouldn't have watched Bakemonogatari if it wasn't highly popular at the time.

That there really wasn't a show out there they would've preferred buying and watching but got sucked into the hype?

Of the shows of its type, I think K-On is one of the very best. Now, not everybody likes those types of shows, but for those who do, I think K-On does a superb job of appealing to their preferences.

So no, I don't think that there was a show out there that they would've preferred buying and watching. At least not for the majority of people who bought K-On.

Like any sort of fad out there in any type of social group, people will copy what is considered "trendy" and in this case it's being called trying to get otaku cred.

I don't think it's correct to consider K-On! a fad. Should the movie do well, that will mean that the K-On anime has been going strong for about 4 years. That's a bit more than a fad, in my opinion. To me, a fad (certainly an anime fad) is pretty much over within 2 years, max.

K-On is trendy. "Cute girls doing cute things" shows have taken off in a big way in recent years, and K-On's success no doubt factors into that.

[Ithekro]

Considering that K-On has going fans outside the Otaku cred circles, I'd guess it is legit for being good. Part of that might be the music and the second season removing some of the more otaku centric parts.


Also on the topic of Kyoto Animation....aside from the K-On movie in December...has anyone heard of them doing anything else? Nichijou will be ending in about a month.

There is rumbling about a fourth FMP anime after more of the FMP:Another series gets moving. Something like it is in the works, sort of, but something is holding it back (creator isn't saying what though).

Plus there is the potential for another Haruhi series (since there are plot threads left over from the movie that need resolving). They have more than enough material for one full series.

There is the possibility of more K-On since the manga restarted with two chapters a month (one each for Azusa's group and Yui's group), but that will take a bit to have material for adaptation.

I don't want to speculate to much on Key products because of Angel Beats and the suggestion that Little Busters would be hugely complex to pull off. Planetarian would be at best an OVA or short movie. Rewrite....no idea.

They didn't find a novel or manga to win their award this year, so nothing seemed up to their standards in terms of something they thought they could animate (and make a profit).

It has been over four year...they can remake Kanon again (kidding).

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

How would that be any different than any other popular show?

There's a good chance I wouldn't have watched Bakemonogatari if it wasn't highly popular at the time.

Because K-ON! has a lot of otaku interests in it. Arguably, Bakemonogatari has the same

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Of the shows of its type, I think K-On is one of the very best. Now, not everybody likes those types of shows, but for those who do, I think K-On does a superb job of appealing to their preferences.

So no, I don't think that there was a show out there that they would've preferred buying and watching. At least not for the majority of people who bought K-On.

K-ON! wasn't the first one in its genre. It was however a KyoAni anime.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't think it's correct to consider K-On! a fad. Should the movie do well, that will mean that the K-On anime has been going strong for about 4 years. That's a bit more than a fad, in my opinion. To me, a fad (certainly an anime fad) is pretty much over within 2 years, max.

K-On is trendy. "Cute girls doing cute things" shows have taken off in a big way in recent years, and K-On's success no doubt factors into that.

That's only because more of the anime keeps coming out. If people still talk about it a lot a decade later as being the pinnacle of a moe show deserving of its sales, I'd be shocked.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Considering that K-On has going fans outside the Otaku cred circles, I'd guess it is legit for being good. Part of that might be the music and the second season removing some of the more otaku centric parts.

Good one. You almost had me there .

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Good one. You almost had me there .

Silly Reck. Clearly stuff like this.

[Ithekro]

Well they did manage to top the Japanese music charts for a while, so there is something there. Clearly something outside the realm of just the regular anime watchers.

Add to this their more normal timeslot on the Disney Channel (as oppose to the late night hours it originally aired), seems to be for something other than the typical otaku crowd.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

K-ON! wasn't the first one in its genre. It was however a KyoAni anime.

That's only because more of the anime keeps coming out. If people still talk about it a lot a decade later as being the pinnacle of a moe show deserving of its sales, I'd be shocked.

KyoAni or not, it is more like a trend with the characters in general that spurs so much response from the fanbase.
Lucky Star has hardly the same popularity than K-on, but they have the same "pattern", although LS was way more mundane and otaku centred.

Frankly speaking, from the way how the Japanese fanbase react to this series, it is more like a boom by the franchise itself. Even the manga was literally boosted by it, which rarely happens.
And the frenzy regarding this franchise over a lot of fields (BD/DVD sales, Oricon, etc) point out that it is way more than just a "fad".

[Ithekro]

Well the musically inclined K-On fans think of K-On as a fad in the way that the Beatles were a fad. It has been a long time since the Beatles were the next big thing...but they are still extremely well known today. Sometimes people don't know who the Beatles are yet still know at least one of their songs very well.

So in ten years, you might still find people that will know and like several songs from K-On that may haven't watched the show at all.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

And the frenzy regarding this franchise over a lot of fields (BD/DVD sales, Oricon, etc) point out that it is way more than just a "fad".

I don't know. I'll be damned if I ever have to consider something like Infinite Stratos more than the next hot thing on the block just because of sales.

But I digress. My original point was merely to support the claim of 0utf0xzer0 that K-ON! can owe a lot of success to the idea of "otaku cred," whether or not its success makes it an anime worth remembering in a decade or two is a whole other story and we won't know until we get there.

Whether or not this show has appealed to broader base than otakus is largely irrelevant because that base is not the one purchasing huge amounts of K-ON! merchandise, buying in mass the dvd/blue rays, and flaunting their liking of this series to others.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Well the musically inclined K-On fans think of K-On as a fad in the way that the Beatles were a fad. It has been a long time since the Beatles were the next big thing...but they are still extremely well known today. Sometimes people don't know who the Beatles are yet still know at least one of their songs very well.

So in ten years, you might still find people that will know and like several songs from K-On that may haven't watched the show at all.

Comparing K-ON! to the Beatles? Absurd. K-ON! has nothing on the enormous success, and sustained popularity of the Beatles. You can come up with a better analogy than that.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Also on the topic of Kyoto Animation....aside from the K-On movie in December...has anyone heard of them doing anything else? Nichijou will be ending in about a month.

There is rumbling about a fourth FMP anime after more of the FMP:Another series gets moving. Something like it is in the works, sort of, but something is holding it back (creator isn't saying what though).

Plus there is the potential for another Haruhi series (since there are plot threads left over from the movie that need resolving). They have more than enough material for one full series.

I was asking myself the same thing but since KyoAni doesn't actually do many shows per year I thought it would be a good idea to just wait and see what they come up with, probably by the winter or spring seasons (not the upcoming fall one).

Haruhi seems a given sooner or latter but considering how much they troll the fanbase with that one it might take a while and K-On is probably a sure thing as soon as the material is there given how much of a success it's been.

As for FMP the story is completely different: given the time it's been since the last season I'm starting to think that like Initial D it had it's time in the spotlight and now it'll just fade away slowly and even if it does show up eventually it might not even be KyoAni to take it up at the time. But that's just my opinion and I don't have much basis for it except for a gut feeling.

As for Key who knows, maybe we'll get something or maybe not. I'm not familiar with the original material for anything other than Clannad so I couldn't say but I would most definitely enjoy a nice Key/KyoAni show again since I'm starting to miss those high quality "harem" dramas.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Because K-ON! has a lot of otaku interests in it.

Um... most popular anime shows do.

Code Geass, Angel Beats!, Infinite Stratos... the list could go on and on.

K-ON! wasn't the first one in its genre.

I never said that it was. However, it did much better sales-wise than other shows in its genre, and there's been a notable increase of "cute girls doing cute things" shows (particularly ones where there is no notable male lead to speak of) since K-On first aried. K-On has unquestionably influenced the anime industry, imo.

It was however a KyoAni anime.

And it did substantially better sales-wise than almost all other KyoAni shows. To attribute K-On's success to the KyoAni brand name alone is quite mistaken, in my view.

That's only because more of the anime keeps coming out.

The same holds true of most trendy anime.

If people still talk about it a lot a decade later as being the pinnacle of a moe show deserving of its sales, I'd be shocked.

This is an overly high standard for you to hold K-On! to, imo. Putting aside shows that ran for hundreds of episodes (DBZ, Sailor Moon, Pokemon, etc...), how many pre-2000 anime shows do people still talk a lot about today? NGE? It's precious few, that's for sure.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I don't know. I'll be damned if I ever have to consider something like Infinite Stratos more than the next hot thing on the block just because of sales.

Why can't you just accept that some popular shows of lasting appeal aren't to your personal taste?

Surely you don't like every single long-running popular North American TV show, do you?

Loads of people can't stand NGE (I'm not one of them, but I've talked with a fair number of anime fans who are), but that doesn't mean they can't admit that it was more than "the next hot thing on the block".

But I digress. My original point...

Your original point was hating on K-On. At this point, Vegeta is about to break his scouter over the number of times you've hated on K-On.

... was merely to support the claim of 0utf0xzer0 that K-ON! can owe a lot of success to the idea of "otaku cred," whether or not its success makes it an anime worth remembering in a decade or two is a whole other story and we won't know until we get there.

It almost certainly won't be worth remembering for you, but that doesn't mean that it won't be worth remembering for a large number of other people.

Whether or not this show has appealed to broader base than otakus is largely irrelevant

No it's not, because it shows that K-On may have more staying power because of it.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Well the musically inclined K-On fans think of K-On as a fad in the way that the Beatles were a fad.

But aren't the beatles the farthest thing possible from a fad?

Are there even people right now who listen to k-on songs without knowing they're from k-on?That would be a suprise to me if there were.

Don't get me wrong I really like all the EDs,both song and animation,as well as the covers that have been made. But seeing the words "beatles" and "k-on" in the same sentence makes me go

[Goggen]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Are you going to say that there aren't a lot of people out there who bought and tuned into K-ON! simply because it was "popular?"

I don't know about "a lot". Some, sure. Enough to make it KyoAni's biggest success and one of the greatest anime hits of the last decade - no. That idea is downright absurd.

[Reckoner]

Trying to not get side tracked here...

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Um... most popular anime shows do.

Code Geass, Angel Beats!, Infinite Stratos... the list could go on and on.

My point was that because K-ON! has otaku interests, it can give otaku cred. Whether or not other popular shows in existence do as well is pretty much irrelevant to my statement.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I never said that it was. However, it did much better sales-wise than other shows in its genre, and there's been a notable increase of "cute girls doing cute things" shows (particularly ones where there is no notable male lead to speak of) since K-On first aried. K-On has unquestionably influenced the anime industry, imo.

I only mentioned KyoAni's name because it did give weight to the marketing of this show compared to past shows which were certainly no less inferior, perhaps even superior IMO.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And it did substantially better sales-wise than almost all other KyoAni shows. To attribute K-On's success to the KyoAni brand name alone is quite mistaken, in my view.

Multiple factors. But KyoAni's name coupled with things like its marketability + otaku cred make it simple to understand for me.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This is an overly high standard for you to hold K-On! to, imo. Putting aside shows that ran for hundreds of episodes (DBZ, Sailor Moon, Pokemon, etc...), how many pre-2000 anime shows do people still talk a lot about? NGE? It's precious few, that's for sure.

It's not. If it can't be remembered, stand the test of time, you're just a fad, a relic of the generation.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why can't you just accept that some popular shows of lasting appeal aren't to your personal taste?

I'm not the one talking about my personal tastes here. I'm talking about lasting significance. Infinite Stratos is in my view a garbage show, but I'd be shocked if people still care about it in like 5-10 years.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Your original point was hating on K-On. At this point, Vegeta is about to break his scouter over the number of times you've hated on K-On.

Not my point. I can hate on it if I want, but was merely driving to give credence to this theory of otaku cred. That's all.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It almost certainly won't be worth remembering for you but that doesn't mean that it won't be worth remembering for a large number of other people.

Again, this is irrelevant to my main point. Also, we don't know if it will have sustained popularity after it finishes airing.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No it's not, because it shows that K-On may have more staying power because of it.

Not if the marketing isn't being made towards these people, and the merchandise is being purchased by otakus.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Goggen

"Otaku cred"? Please tell me you're joking.
You know why people bought those shows on DVD and Blu-Ray? It's because people enjoyed watching those shows. It's not more complicated than that.

I'm not joking. The original series is seven discs, and even at places like Amazon Japan, that would cost around $350 because of the price structure of the Japanese Bluray market. The second season costs even more.

Tens of thousands of fans shelled out for them, far more than for most other anime, despite the fact you can probably rent the discs for far less. Now, some might be buying just because they plan to rewatch a lot - this series is a household name among otaku, after all - but it strikes me that a lot of it is probably what's known as conspicuous consumption - consuming because of what it says about you.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

That's only because more of the anime keeps coming out. If people still talk about it a lot a decade later as being the pinnacle of a moe show deserving of its sales, I'd be shocked.

I don't know if it'll be considered the pinnacle, but its sheer success (both in sales and how long the franchise has retained the spotlight) ensure that when people discuss this style of show ten years from now, it will be one of the most talked about.

Comparing it to the Beatles is hyperbolic because they're on a different scale entirely - there are still radio programs of Beatles songs, I listened to one a few nights back when driving a friend home. But there is a point to the analogy. The Beatles were a great band, but they're known in large part because of their sheer popularity during their heyday.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Good one. You almost had me there .

I'm hoping that one was a joke. The popularity of songs like Don't Say Lazy (verifiable through actual sales data) and the associated OP/ED sequences are important for keeping the show on everyone's mind and sustaining its popularity.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I don't know if it'll be considered the pinnacle, but its sheer success (both in sales and how long the franchise has retained the spotlight) ensure that when people discuss this style of show ten years from now, it will be one of the most talked about.

Comparing it to the Beatles is hyperbolic because they're on a different scale entirely - there are still radio programs of Beatles songs, I listened to one a few nights back when driving a friend home. But there is a point to the analogy. The Beatles were a great band, but they're known in large part because of their sheer popularity during their heyday.

Certainly people will be able to look back on it as a popular show. However, will it constantly pull in new generations of fans. Will it transcend time? That's the difference for me between a fad and a true classic. That has yet to be determined for K-ON! I'll be surprised if this show has tons of staying power personally, but we'll see.

The difference in scale and scope of the Beatles is important to note though. I just feel if he wanted to go for a popularity argument he could use a better example than them... It gives too much sense of significance and importance to compare K-ON! to the Beatles is all.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I'm hoping that one was a joke. The popularity of songs like Don't Say Lazy (verifiable through actual sales data) and the associated OP/ED sequences are important for keeping the show on everyone's mind and sustaining its popularity.

Oh certainly they helped. But I was merely joking about how it's a show that's supposed to be about music, that isn't even about music.

Yes, even I in my naivete was once drawn in by that ED song in season 1 only to be completely flabbergasted at what transpired post episode 2.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

My point was that because K-ON! has otaku interests, it can give otaku cred. Whether or not other popular shows in existence do as well is pretty much irrelevant to my statement.

The thing is that the Otaku (not to be confused as "mere anime fan" proclaiming themselves as Otaku) -are- the main milking cow in general, be it a pandemic otaku show or not.
Keep in mind that DVD/BD are extremely pricey and you better be a hardcore fan of the said series if you want to buy the integral of the DVD/BD.
And on the point, it is mainly the "otaku" that are driving the market as it is, hence why the situation of anime etc are more prone to content of such genre.

I only mentioned KyoAni's name because it did give weight to the marketing of this show compared to past shows which were certainly no less inferior, perhaps even superior IMO.

The thing is that even for a KyoAni series, it is unexpectedly breaking popularity and merchandising to the point even the original source has to follow it up.
I wouldn't be surprised if K-on manages to overwhelm Haruhi's popularity even when it was on its prime.

It's not. If it can't be remembered, stand the test of time, you're just a fad, a relic of the generation.

That would turn 99% of the anime series as "fad" though. Context, circumstances and vintage are a huge factors regarding a possible "everlasting reference" to X or Y series.
It thus become more and more difficult for a new franchise to remain in people's mind, when you have more and more series; with less and less new ideas thrown in there.
Therefore, sizable popularity and profits are much more representative of a series strength, instead of whether they are remembered 5-10 years later or not.

[Reckoner]

Well to be clear here, I was never making any statements about the quality of the show earlier. All I was saying that 0utf0xzer0's theory isn't so far off the mark in trying to explain the enormous success of this show.

I'm trying to not get sidetracked from my main statement or intention.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That would turn 99% of the anime series as "fad" though. Context, circumstances and vintage are a huge factors regarding a possible "everlasting reference" to X or Y series.
It thus become more and more difficult for a new franchise to remain in people's mind, when you have more and more series; with less and less new ideas thrown in there.
Therefore, sizable popularity and profits are much more representative of a series strength, instead of whether they are remembered 5-10 years later or not.

If you have incredible marketability in a show, coupled with a large brand name KyoAni, and then you get some of the success it did... Then the anime transcends what it really is. You have people not only buying the DVD and blue rays, but the merchandise because it's popular, and very otaku in its marketability. Like anything thta's popular, people come in to see what it's all about, and by being marketable, people purchase stuff to bath in the popularity of it. However, since it's all under this umbrella of otaku marketing, it becomes a sort of thing where you are buying into the popular market of otakuism, and getting Otaku cred.

My use of the term "fad" is probably different than other people here, and honestly, it has no bearing on what I was trying to say. So I'll just discard it here. My only argument here was that this frenzied marketing of this show can be attributed to this idea of otaku cred that 0utf0xzer0 outlined. I'm not entirely sure if this is a sustainable popularity like that of the whole time classics, and perhaps it will be. What makes this show different from a Bakemongatari, despite similar sales and such, is that Bakemongatari is not exactly as marketable and thus I'm led to believe it has different reasons of popularity than most animes this decade.

EDIT: The only other thing I was attaching to this was my personal view that K-ON! itself is not very special compared to other shows in the genre... However, this idea of otaku cred, the marketing + KyoAni, help explain the enormous difference in success.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

My point was that because K-ON! has otaku interests, it can give otaku cred. Whether or not other popular shows in existence do as well is pretty much irrelevant to my statement.

It's not irrelevant to your statement because you were using the "otaku cred" argument to attack K-On and the reasons why people buy it.

If most popular anime shows give "otaku cred" then it becomes pointless to single out K-On for attack on that basis.

Multiple factors. But KyoAni's name coupled with things like its marketability + otaku cred make it simple to understand for me.

Loads of people sincerely liked the show, and bought it for that reason. You are not giving enough respect to that fact, imo.

It's not.

Yes, it is.

Klashikari has very succinctly addressed why. You are allowing your strong personal bias against K-On to overly influence what you say about the K-On franchise as a whole, and its place in the anime world.

I'm not the one talking about my personal tastes here.

Your personal tastes are obvious with almost every sentence you write. You have repeatedly hated on K-On on this site, and elsewhere. It's worth raising this point because it shows that you are very biased on this topic, and aren't approaching it objectively.

Not my point. I can hate on it if I want, but was merely driving to give credence to this theory of otaku cred. That's all.

And I think that you are putting far too much stock in the otaku cred theory.

Not if the marketing isn't being made towards these people, and the merchandise is being purchased by otakus.

That is irrelevant to my point. If K-On is able to appeal to non-otakus (and it certainly has, as demonstrated by the Disney Channel time slot for it in Japan) then that can only aid its staying power. It also speaks to the fact that K-On's popularity has to do with a lot more than just "otaku cred".

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Oh certainly they helped. But I was merely joking about how it's a show that's supposed to be about music, that isn't even about music.

The show was about four girls coming together to create a high school Light Music Club. It was never simply about music in general, or promoted that way.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's not irrelevant to your statement because you were using the "otaku cred" argument to attack K-On and the reasons why people buy it.

If most popular anime shows give "otaku cred" then it becomes unfair to single out K-On for attack on that basis, as you did.

First of all read my post above for some more clarity on what I'm saying .

Anyways, how is this theory at all a slight to the show? You're trying to basically tell me that the marketability of the show wasn't an enormous factor in the show's success and that it was all simply based on its own merits. You have your theory, I have mine.

Explain to me for example how IS or Bakemongatari is in any way as marketable as this show.

Not going to respond to the rest because my personal views on the franchise don't matter to this discussion.

[Ithekro]

KyoAni's "brand name" doesn't get one everything. Nichijou can attest for that presently, and Munto TV....yeah...
Though it is possible that Nichijou's sales numbers will increase as the episodes people want become avalible for sale. (volume two did better than volume one from what I understand)

But aren't the beatles the farthest thing possible from a fad?

That was the point of that statement. But also in 1963 and 1964, the Beatles were considered to be a fad by critics and the like. By 1970 the only thing that could take down the Beatles was the Beatles themselves. I mentioned that it was the musically inclined that mention this because of the trending HTT has and the similar nature of something in the group and the songs (the Beatles were the first Rock Band to play the Bodukan if I recall correctly). K-On will never be as big as the Beatles (unless somehow that movie and its soundtrack are beyond awesome to the point they get international interest and sales), but musicians make interesting analogies at times. Some see HTT as a Japanese genderbent parody of the Beatles...or maybe a homage...I can't quite tell.