2012-10-07, 23:53 | Link #3341 | |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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DonQuigleone certainly could acknowledge that his "no, goddammit, there's no giant cheese floating around the Atlantic" is not logically perfect, because he doesn't have access to real time satellite data on the entire ocean surface. But even so, it's also very practical to tell giant Atlantic cheese believers to eff off. He doesn't have to acknowledge anything because the burden of proof lies in the giant cheese eaters side. Of course, if he fancies himself open-minded, once presented otherwise with evidence of floating Atlantic cheese, he ought to be willing to change his position. Flat Earth Atheism is unhealthily attractive to stray lighting bolts. But for now, he's perfectly within his right to ask why he must give extra courtesy to the God believers (Goddists!) as opposed to whatever courtesy he could muster for the Mozzarellians. I'll admit, numbers have powers of their own, ironically not logically either (argumentum ad populum), but because the followers of ancient desert gods are much more likely to hang me up on a tree if I am in the wrong place at the wrong time while saying the wrong things, than the gentlemen of the society of giant Atlantic cheese. But since I am safe behind the Internet (though not behind 7 proxies...n00b, I know), well... Also, agnosticism in the specific issue of divine providence maybe quite convenient, but stretching the logical underpinnings of this principle too far and we will venture very quickly into the territory of solipsism: "I think therefore I am, maybe, not sure, but I'm even less sure if reality, my mom, and you aren't the product of my own mind. Therefore go away." Or, for example, DonQuigleone cannot be 100% absolutely sure if his senses are lying to him and the cheese are already there but he alone couldn't smell them. Not the happiest way to live, of course. Last edited by Irenicus; 2012-10-08 at 00:05. |
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2012-10-08, 01:10 | Link #3342 | |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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2012-10-08, 01:14 | Link #3343 | ||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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That said, I like Agnostics fine, I just think most agnostics wouldn't be agnostics if there wasn't a large number of easily offended theists out there, I think most agnostics are de facto atheists anyway. If a person was truly agnostic and talked about nothing being objectively true, then I might start getting annoyed. Thankfully that's rare. Quote:
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Likewise, look at our personal lives. I can't be too sure that my son is actually my son. So when my son asks me "are you my daddy?" am I going to say back "Well I don't think I can truly know one way or the other." And let me tell you, there's a much higher chance of that child not being mine, then there is of god existing, in that the former is merely improbable, while the latter is nearly impossible(if not absolutely impossible). |
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2012-10-08, 02:17 | Link #3345 |
Juanita/Kiteless
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New England
Age: 40
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DonQuigleone, I think you are simplifying things by equating pondering the existence of God compared to wondering if onions are really onions or if your son is really your son, etc.
We aren't talking about things such as looking at an onion on a counter or interfacing with the child that you know is your son. We are talking about things that involve mysteries and unknowns. Things where we just don't have definite answers to. If this helps you, don't just focus solely on the idea of a Judeo-Christian God. Think of the concept of "A higher power and order". Was the universe intended to form from some higher power? We humans gotta ponder, are all the phenomenons that we know about and can observe, and all the ones we don't even know about yet, are they all part of some higher power and order and is their a purpose to existence, or is it all just from random occurrences, and nothing more? The universe was born and if it didn't happen just right, it'd be far different than it is now and there'd be no stars and no planetary systems. Earth formed and got ideal conditions for life. Earth had no complex life for a few billion years and eventually complex life forms came and eventually us sentient human beings with higher thought came along and cultures and societies came along and we are far above the creatures and beasts of Earth in so many ways. We have arts and sciences and discovered mathematics and spirituality exists and people can create so much purpose for their lives. All these right causes and conditions fell into place, some things happening just perfectly. Is it all just from random occurrences, and that is all there is to it, or is there something more (maybe much more) to reality? These are things steeped in mysteries. These kind of things are truly worth pondering about. This all just simply can't be compared to "I'm looking at an onion on the counter and I know what onions are but can I really be sure it is an onion?". Was this universe born (and all sorts of scientific laws displaying order came with it) just because reality just does things and sometimes things work out, or is there much more to reality than just chaotic, soulless, swirling randomness. That is stuff worth pondering deeply about.
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2012-10-08, 03:57 | Link #3347 | ||||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Thankfully, no. It was a hypothetical .
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I am an atheist until proven otherwise, and I think this is the position the vast majority of atheists take, we're not "Flat Earth Atheists". If I received a revelation from God, I'd change my mind pretty quickly. Quote:
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There is no evidence in favour of god's existence. You can say there's no evidence that he doesn't exist, but you can't really prove a negative (as you can see with the cheese). The burden of proof always lies with the person making the claim. It is natural for the rest of us to disbelieve until that evidence is given. There are many crazy superstitious things out there that people are trying to persuade me to believe, from the existence of thetans, to triangle power, to the power of star formations in the sky to predict the future(if only we could exactly figure out how!). There's no evidence of any of these things being true, but they all might be true. Sure, god might exist, but so might the cheese in the Atlantic ocean. Those things are so absurd that I'm going to assume the negative unless you show me something really amazing. Quote:
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2012-10-08, 05:53 | Link #3348 | ||
is this so?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gradius Home World
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Which is why it's very rare for me to bring up the topic of religion, when talking casually with people I'm not yet familiar with.
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2012-10-08, 06:27 | Link #3349 |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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What I don't get here is the insistence that something either is or isn't. I don't see anything wrong with making decisions with a purely probabilistic perspective in mind. There's really no reason extend as far as "belief" or "non-belief" when making a claim when you can just as easily label something as "probable" or "improbable". After all, there really is no such thing as anything "solid" to hold on to, be it physical sensations or religious dogma. It's not like acknowledging such things will change reality in any way.
As an agnostic atheist myself, I like to maintain a principle of absolute relativity in many things. As such, from my perspective, both empirical logic and blind faith are tools that people choose from in making sense of reality. One is not better than the other. Its just that a lot of us here go for the former rather than the latter.
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2012-10-08, 09:03 | Link #3351 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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Is that clear enough? The purpose of this thread is not to argue the existence of God (which is one of the most boring discussions you can have on the internet since you cannot actually hit or yell at the person you are 'talking' to) or really even question anyone's beliefs, rather this thread simply serves to describe your own beliefs/belief system (and if necessary describe how you came to these conclusions). This thread was created along the same lines as the general "How old are you?" or "How tall are you?" style of threads that pop up. Describing your religious beliefs in-thread is supposed to serve no other purpose than describing any other pertinent information you wish to disclose over the internet. This is not an actual debate thread (and I do not know why everyone wants it to be a debate thread). Follow RapidPotential's example (the post directly above mine). This is a general warning for everyone: Please Stop. |
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2012-10-08, 19:24 | Link #3352 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
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I'm a Muslim, I pray everyday : )
I was born into a Muslim family, when I became older it didn't reqiure much thinking from me I take a look at the world .. trees,grass,water,animals, even space and stars I asked myself the simple question, how all of this was created ? how all of this works with a great system of life how we, human beings created with a very "complicated" way .. be it cells,blood,hair .. anything my simple answer .. Allah created this world, and gave humans many books to learn from through many prophets in history the final one was the holy Qur'an, to find our salvation. the book is written in arabic - our language - and yet no arabic person could ever wright even a sentence like it, it's in my language yet I can't come with anything that come close to it, this is why it considered a miracle even to this day and age I always feel that Allah protect me ^^ anyway, I respect everyone's beliefs, and I wish a happy life for everyone ^^ |
2012-10-19, 08:51 | Link #3355 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Japan
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I'm a Shintoist.
Shinto (神道, literary means "the way of Gods) is a Japanese traditional religion. I think that many of you have seen a Shinto shrine in anime lol Shintoists don't have to pray seriously everyday such as Muslims. However, I never have meal without saying "Itadakimasu(いただきます)." This is not only a word for a cook, but also for food which was sacrificed for us. And Shinto has so many Gods XD |
2012-10-19, 10:22 | Link #3356 | |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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It's a fascinating topic, especially when discussed by mature individuals from a variety of different backgrounds. Of course, moderating such a discussion is a pain in the ass (due to proselytizing, mainly, and flaming if you have some less-than-mature thread participants) so I understand the rule. But you're questioning why people want to discuss and understand each others' theistic beliefs? That's one of the most fascinating discussions possible, imo, even given my above-mentioned ardent agnosticism. It gives a glimpse into worldview, personal philosophy, culture, and can touch upon science, history, morality, and many more categories. I'm not arguing to change your rule, but now you know why people want it to be a debate thread. |
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2012-10-19, 12:36 | Link #3357 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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Please feel free to discuss your beliefs, how they came to you, how they affect your life, etc. But, do not argue about your beliefs, nor should you feel that you have to defend your beliefs in this thread. |
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2012-11-10, 09:21 | Link #3360 |
The Undead Summoner
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: The Philippine Islands
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... former Lenaisianist (a religion I formed for myself when I stopped believing in God and with Jesus the savior). I am still finding my way back to the Roman Catholic faith (BTW, I've already dropped Leniasianism half a year ago).
... can I go slightly off-topic here? Since there are Muslims here, I'll just have to ask one question: Do some of you (Muslims) find the depiction of your brothers-in-faith in some movies somewhat offensive? (I'll cite two examples: The Kingdom and Body of Lies) Just asking.
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not a debate, philosophy, religion |
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