2011-05-19, 07:10 | Link #10481 | |
Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2006
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2011-05-19, 08:48 | Link #10482 | ||||
less qq; more pewpew
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philippines
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Yes, most of the things in that article are true, the horror theme aside. For example, 1-4% of the genes in non-Africans are shared with Neanderthals. This supports the Neanderthal Admixture theory, the Multiregional hypothesis, and is even consistent with the Out-of-Africa model.
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Furthermore, even the reproductive process itself is full of randomization. For example, in gametogenesis alone, meiosis totally randomizes the chromosomes that are carried by each of your gamete cells. Then, there is also randomization in which specific gamete cells end up pairing in fertilization. This is why each individual, aside from identical twins, is genetically unique. With this, I suggest you review your genetics and science in general, as almost everything in nature is random at the core (quantum mechanics). And then refresh your definition of random while we're at it. It is true. You don't lose any of your genes. Remember alleles and dominance in basic Mendelian genetics? The difference between genotype and phenotype? For example, in crossing parents AA x Aa (both with phenotype A), you expect your first filial generation to have a spread of AA (A), Aa (A), AA (A), Aa (A). In other words, 50% of the offspring would have the AA genotype, the other 50% will have Aa, and all of these will have the phenotype A. Now, let's say we cross two of the Aa offspring. We get a spread of AA (A), Aa (A), Aa (A), aa (a). Here, we see that there is a 25% chance of the resulting offspring expressing the a phenotype. A more complex version of this (involving many genes and many other contributing factors) is in play for most traits, but the basic gist is that genetic material is conserved within species. For example, in the human genome, more than 98% are non-coding genes, and among this 98% are certain permanently silenced genes (due to certain mutations, including mistakes in replication and translation), which are sometimes referred to as fossil genes. These genes, called pseudogenes, are thought to be major determinants in the random mutations that drive evolution, as they are not subject to natural selection (due to their lack of expression, and thus any minor changes to them will have zero effect on the organism, and will just be copied onto the next generation instead of getting naturally selected, until reaching the point where certain mutations are acquired which result in the activation of the gene). Also, a hundred or even a thousand years is far too small for the effects of evolution in large, complex life such as man to be observed. As a testament, the genetic makeup of our species hasn't changed much since anatomically modern humans first appeared around 200,000 years ago. Quote:
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2011-05-19, 10:26 | Link #10483 |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Spoiler for Ice Blockīs comment:
How to put it... i donīt truly feel like starting a debate over the theory of evolution and natural selection; but, it feels like both a waste and an insult to not say anything, after you have taken the time to expose such a beautifully sound argument... When i talk of evolution an natural selection, i mostly do it under my own interpretation of the existing theories, due to that i may sometimes not use punctual terms and facts (thing that obviously bothers you, as you seem to be a hard-headed realist... no offense intended, i actually like people that try their best to defend their stance), the key theory in my interpretation is precisely, natural selection; with that in mind, if you use a bit of abstract thinking this will mean that thereīs virtually no randomness in life or evolution, there may exist a great numbers of outcomes, but the one that happens is the one in which the greatest number of variables converge, therefore the "strongest" or better said the "most qualified". Science all in all, is at most at an infant state, thatīs precisely why itīs improbable that we can determinate and understand every single factor involving an outcome, itīs better to believe that we canīt even truly even understand the outcome and may prefer to call it a random process for convenience sake(which technically itīs true from the human scientific point of view, but not so for nature, or if you want to put it that way, the animal who stand at the top and the bottom of the food chain since itīs birth: the world). - In Human reproduction, it is taught that from the millions of spermatozoon of your father only at random reaches the ovule, to give birth to the person we know as you; in reality, the ones that have any kind of deformity: 2 heads or more, two tails or none and the ones who have lethally defective dna material, often die in the uterus not even reaching the fallopian tubes, the ones who do often become "steps" for a more "qualified" spermatozoon, taking the task of destroying or better said opening a path through the zona pellucida(since their not truly perfect or adept more often than not the end up stuck inside it while other spermatozoon, slips through the path they have created and moves on to the ovule). Since the quality of the semen varies (deteriorate is the word, but i will have to be even more long winded, to explain exactly what i mean), itīs possible that the best spermatozoon of a pool is one with a lethal mutation, or a hereditary disease(which actually mean that the overall quality is actually quite bad); but, nevertheless is a clear process of natural selection, with a great number of variables of which we have only found a small part... -A traffic accident is not a random event, many variables outside of your power control it, but itīs a certainty that they converge in a bad day in the hospital(your mental state, your driving skill, the amount of glucose in your system, the weather, the state of the road, living and inanimate objects, etc.). -An almost infinite number of variables converge in an uv causing a mutation in the genetic material of your skin, and if your own body is not in a state in which it can correct it (destroy the altered cell if necessary), it will doubtlessly lead to a skin cancer, if youīre not an adaptable enough entity, you may not even take control(medicine) and die. Evolution is ruled by natural selection in ways that at our level of science, we can only call an "incomplete random process". Ps: Sry for the wall of text and my long windedness, though i cut short quite a bit of it... |
2011-05-19, 10:44 | Link #10484 |
一刀繚乱
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Those who want a little breather from this almost-full-scale debate, here's a little advert.
Speakers/Typers, you may continue. Thank you.
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2011-05-19, 11:12 | Link #10485 | |
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2011-05-19, 11:34 | Link #10486 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Gensokyo
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- Mutations are random : Principle of the biological horlog (randomness - new word ?!)
- The mutations needs to be on the germ cells, as well as not being silent or neutral ( more randomness ) - According to the environment you are either advantaged or disadvantaged, if you are advantaged then you survive longer, and then you can have children more easily. ( randomness ... ) -Those children, if they inherit the mutation continue the cycle. ( randomness once again, because it's not sure the mutation is given depending of the chromosome, thanks meiosis ) Et cetera. I'm chemist not biologist so sorry but I don't know the accurate terms in english And yes, using natural selection for humankind is wrong, in a lot of sides ... --- Aside that, why are we talking about that ? |
2011-05-19, 12:22 | Link #10487 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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The Long version, i made and example using abstract thinking and oversimplified many of the theories of evolution and natural selection, IceBlock simply stated what is the correct form of those and explained why i heavily overdone it. Not sparing a single word in simple and sound arguments, which for a person not truly interested may look simply like walls of text, i on the other hand must say iīm glad he took the time to take me seriously,xD. PS: On a side note, it may sound cruel to a person who believes in the humanism to use the theory of natural selection over other humans; but, with no offense intended, just like we canīt escape time, we canīt escape reality nor causality, and you have to admit that humans using that very theory on everything in the worlds but themselves, is being overly arrogant and simply nonsensical. Last edited by NightGale; 2011-05-19 at 12:56. |
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2011-05-19, 15:24 | Link #10488 |
Disabled By Request
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The 305
Age: 30
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Change of debate.
So I found this pic which Im sure many wanted to see. Mikoto with wings. So the question is if by some chance Mikoto "awakened" how would you react? Bonus question(joke question)-If by some chance this was put in the Railgun anime if it were to happen. How would you react to fans(who don't read the books)who think she awakened? Last edited by I_am_Kami; 2011-05-19 at 15:57. |
2011-05-19, 15:52 | Link #10491 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Gensokyo
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Railgun is good, but only for the change of POV, if it were to go on its on way and do things on its own, I would still like it but it will probably piss me off.
As for Mikoto awakening, i'm nothing more than a shipper, power things doesn't interest me, so I don't really care. Actually, it would angry me if she were to awaken for Kuroko instead of Kami-yan. On a side note ...I really don't recognize the drawings of the drawers in the picture you posted but that doesn't matter. |
2011-05-19, 15:58 | Link #10493 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The 305
Age: 30
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2011-05-19, 16:02 | Link #10494 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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It'll be pretty interesting to what would push Mikoto to become full-blown. I haven't been able to get my hands on the mini-novel, but assuming that it's Kuroko being in a dangerous situation, I could see a possibility. However, then why didn't she become one during World War III? Was it because she trusted Touma that much? |
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2011-05-19, 16:04 | Link #10495 | |
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2011-05-19, 16:08 | Link #10496 |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Personally i have a neutral opinion about it, i like Misaka, but i canīt quite justify the fandom born around her... i mean itīs a great character, but is she really that great?
...Anyway if she "awakened" in the canon history, i hope they make it believable and interesting enough to warrant at the very least two volumes of NT in development,xD. Apart from that, the good news is that Js06, never fails to impress me time and time again: Part 2 and 3 The bad news is that i still have a wall of text pending, since honestly i donīt like to ignore people opinions when their directed at me: Spoiler for Ice Block comment:
My second and third most favorite of the capital sins: Envy and Greed. The first is Pride, those seven in many ways are a good way to simplify the essence of humanity… actually it may be off-topic, but I donīt actually agree with their abolishment from the catholic church, in RL I mean. Simple and easy to understand examples (however extreme they may be), are good for explaining the difference between right and wrong, moderation an excess. Back to topic, as I was saying: Envy and Greed, sounds out of place? Well not so much. When in an specific matter, two theories take extremely opposite stances, it often happens that the most widely accepted is implemented and the other is just like you said left recorded for reference. Itīs not a rare occurrence in Science that both of the previously mentioned theories, have competitors (in other words parallel theories, that while using the same though process poses significant or insignificant variations, that nevertheless makes them different), some of them seeing as they have been “one-upped” by the other researcher teams that have been just a little bit faster, never even make it to the history. Now hereīs the deal: what happens when after a considerable amount of time has passed (maybe even a year later, thatīs science for you), the first theory is revised and proven wrong against his opposite? Itīs a fact that it was recorded, but itīs quite possible that not with as much care as the one that was accepted and some information is lost in the process. Then, what happens next? Simple, since the original judgment was wrong, they would try to revise all the studies (even the one who was originally though correct and later refuted), at this point, even the parallel theories will be taken in consideration (no can do about the lost ones, iīm afraid), and it will begin an ugly struggle to prove “who” was “more right” and claim the credit for it. Iīll leave the rest to your imagination, but youīll have to agree with me that this process represents a significant lose of information, “lost to history” by the envy and greed of a few, no matter how important it may be the preservation of knowledge, human self-destructive nature at itīs fullest. I canīt quite say youīre wrong on using Index, since the name and power of this Majin alone are a sound argument; but, what about when Index dies? I wonīt say that Neccesarius making honor to itīs name wonīt have a few “spares”(as cruel as it may sound), but itīs not something confirmed, so Index may as well be a one-generation monster. Even then, the knowledge that Index holds is akin to the totally of the “HUMAN magic research” to date; but, quite a bit of that info although proven may be incomplete (as I explained above), so itīs not impossible that Index would need to do a through sweep of those 103.000 grimoires in the future to make up for one of those lost rituals and even then she may fail... Spoiler for shmaster comment:
However automatic a counter-system may be, itīs dependent on a database from which to take references and which process to make decisions. It may be true that this specific database is firmly etched in the HR; but, itīs uses are limited, you may argue that the HR is invincible, but it has use limits. If that wasnīt the case, Fiamma wouldnīt have proceeded with such a roundabout method to “save the world, from the enemy that must be defeated”, if it was truly perfect, it would have destroyed that enemy the moment it tried to harm the world, even if Fiamma wasnīt aware of that enemy existence. Thatīs precisely why Fiamma researched those limits, so as to bring the maximum benefit and nullify whatever backslash may be produced from a wrong handling of such power. PS: Since i canīt truly tell how much longer we could keep this up i think it will be better to put a pause on this debate at the very least until NT vol 2, what do you say? Ice Block? shmaster? (I refer specifically to them since whether on pure science or in Toaru theory at the very least, theyīre the ones who have been the most active in the discussion i started... ) |
2011-05-19, 16:13 | Link #10497 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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Personally, I don't actually see Mikoto awakening. Her personality is a major reason in her development into a Level 5, but is it enough to push her into an Awakening? So far I can't see a desperate reason she would have for pushing herself that far, unlike Accelerator. Yes, she's cute, and probably the most normal of the Level 5s, but it's difficult to see how she would be an important part to the overarching plot (except giving Touma a reason to push himself to the limit). And this is coming from a Mikoto fangirl, who would probably be on par with Kuroko in wanting to become one with our Goddess. |
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2011-05-19, 16:13 | Link #10498 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Gensokyo
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Nighty, you are killing our eyes with so much lines, I want to hung myself, it's already midnight here. |
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action, dengeki bunko, fantasy, light novels, science fiction, shounen |
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