2010-06-20, 15:03 | Link #2101 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The explanation for the sealing of the doors exist only from a metaworld perspective. And to make things even more complicated it's retroactive...
Basically Erika did not use the seals, but Battler gave her the power to rewrite the story so that she used the seals on three rooms of her choice. Erika decided to retroactively seal the room where Battler was. Because until that point that door wasn't sealed, Battler moved forward his plot using his piece Battler. The seal caused a big problem, because if the room was sealed then Battler couldn't possibly have moved outside the room. After the sealing Erika told Battler that he'd better rewrite his move of placing a letter near the guesthouse door. Apparently Battler used his piece Battler to place that letter there, but since the the room was sealed the story had to be changed and the letter couldn't be there anymore. However Battler refused to remove the letter because doing so would have been the same as admitting that it was Battler who placed it. Instead he decided to make a different change (probably by making so it was one of the other 1st twilight victims to do it). Anyway the point is that the Game Master is able to make retroactive changes in the story (as long as they aren't denied in red) and Battler has been stupid enough to give part of this power to Erika. EP6 also shows that the Game Master can make changes on the plot "on the fly", so if the detective closes to the truth, the GM just needs to devise another trick. That's really a fair game, isn't it? But Erika somehow can perform actions without the GM knowing. By doing so she can win by default by closing the GM into a logic error. Her best move was killing all the available "pieces" that Battler could use, making therefore impossible for something that he stated in red to have been executed by anyone. Declaring in red something that is impossible leads to a logic error. The Game Master at that point gets trapped into a nightmare where he can't do anything but trying over and over again to find a way to explain how the "impossible" was "possible" without breaking any red.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2010-06-20 at 15:18. |
2010-06-20, 15:07 | Link #2102 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Ah, thanks for explaining it.
Yeah, this makes no sense whatsoever from the perspective of the gameboard, so I'm just going to go ahead and say that I can make any theory I want not contradicted by red text. And because this makes no sense we have the Genius Battler theory, correct? |
2010-06-20, 15:11 | Link #2103 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Battler isn't that good, it seems. 8) By the way, Battler placing the letter feels like he was recruited into the Beatrice faction for this particular game. There's no saying that he wasn't in other episodes, but it feels like the gameboard is a reflection of the meta-world and vice versa... EDIT: Oh, and in addition, Beatrice being dead feels like the Beatrice faction no longer has any willpower or plan to carry out their schemes, so Battler has to step in. The Beatrice faction ends up consisting of merely their old ideas of pranks to spread the Legend of Beatrice and (Shannon, we assume) someone's plans to put her love for Battler onto another 'Beatrice.' |
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2010-06-20, 15:14 | Link #2104 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Yeah the "genius battler theory" states that in reality Battler knew everything, but he let Erika trap him into a logic error as a way to force Beatrice to regain her true self.
However then the whole story doesn't make sense. There are many scenes where we see Battler's perspective while trapped in the logic error. There you can see him, terrorized, panicked, and totally confused. However no one was there to watch him, so why he had to fake it? Surely he couldn't let Erika trap him in an unsolvable logic error. For this theory to work you need to think that Battler did know how to solve the logic error, else he'd risk to let Beatrice become her true self only to forever crying on Battler's trapped soul. Quote:
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2010-06-20, 15:39 | Link #2105 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Let us, remember the magical battle between Virgilia and Beatrice in Ep3, as the first scene where the issue is brought up to the forefront. Battler is not there to see it. We nevertheless, read about it in a book which we generally assume is seen from the Battler's point of view when possible. Meta-Battler then reacts to this scene, so our questions on whether he saw this scene as we did or not are solved - he did, and he complains about it. Meta-Battler and Piece-Battler are known to be in some ways identical and in other ways distinct, which allows Dlanor in Ep5 say "until now you have been the detective" while addressing the Meta-Battler -- but then Meta-Battler interprets this phrase as if it means both him and Piece-Battler as a joint entity. (Status of "being the culprit" would make absolutely no sense for Meta-Battler if Piece-Battler was not involved) But in Ep5 and Ep6, Erika has been declared the detective. Would this not mean that Meta-Erika has access to the entire narrative as it is presented to us? If it wouldn't, what makes Erika so special that she does not get this privilege when Meta-Battler apparently does? And if it would, then it is crucial for Battler to be as terrified, panicked and confused as possible while Erika's watching him from one layer and trying to corner him from another.
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2010-06-20, 15:55 | Link #2106 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The battle between Beatrice and Virgilia is not a good example, because that happens in the game as a fake scene.
Granted that the metaworld isn't a real world, and we don't actually fully understand what it is, I don't think we have any clear example of a fake scene in the metaworld. That's why, as of now, the metaworld scenes are more reliable than the game scenes. In the game we know that there is a Game Master who can lie about it. But about the metaworld, who is lying and to whom?
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2010-06-20, 16:20 | Link #2107 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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But of course we all know that the island of Rokkenjima is fictional, no matter what kind of prototypes it gets, that Ushiromiya family never existed (with names like these, wouldn't be surprised they couldn't exist if they tried) and the metaworld itself is an entity even more fictional than that. To get anywhere in our attempts at literary criticism (because that's what it really is, even if we aren't being very scientific about it) we must assume a certain reality underneath the fiction, with the fiction being a presumably imperfect account of that reality, by suspending disbelief. That works fine for on-the-board scenes, because they are minimally different from the world as it is given to us through senses. Since we have the author-Beatrice on the scene and reader-Battler, it's clear who's lying to whom. But once we get to see Featherinne, the logic is no longer so straight. Are we reading the book about Battler talking to Beatrice, or are we reading a book about Ange reading a book aloud to Featherinne, in which book Battler is telling a story to Erika? With everyone in the chain aware that the chain exists and possibly lying for the people more than once removed down the chain, well, anyone could be lying to us.
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2010-06-20, 16:20 | Link #2108 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Why do you think that scene took place in the metaworld? Meta-Battler was shown to be in the chapel getting married to Erika at the time. Meanwhile, Battler's flailing was linked to a noise that was heard on the game board, and he was rescued by Kanon on the magic layer. So shouldn't we interpret that whole performance in the guest room as a magic layer scene?
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2010-06-20, 16:58 | Link #2109 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Anyways, as I noticed before how the Meta-world and the gameboard appear to reflect each other even though the narrative has been telling us that the Meta-World supposedly 'controls' the gameboard... It seems more that all these 'layers' are not really reality but more like Metaphors. So in essence, we have one big Metaphor-space with lots of co-existing metaphors... to help explain the mystery. |
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2010-06-20, 17:25 | Link #2110 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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EDIT: If you think about it though since the letters were never delivered no one should be aware of that promise from Beatrice in episode 5 anyway.
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2010-06-20, 17:33 | Link #2111 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Oh yes. Erika is a huge disrupting influence on the original plans, letters included. Even in other mystery novels detectives completely disrupt the culprit's plans. So Erika is much more effective than Battler, although she is not 100% effective like a real detective from another series.
I'm just noticing that the Meta-world and the gameboard were written as if they reflect each other in events. I figure after 6 games that Ryukishi is using energy to make sure this shows in the text for some purpose, rather than as random chance... So in that case, I'm just thinking that if Beatrice died in the Meta-World that that must have some kind of effect on the gameboard beyond just the 'Beatrice isn't here to set it up.' The way the stories could be made must have been limited somehow... |
2010-06-20, 18:24 | Link #2112 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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The scenes of Piece-Battler trapped in the room just happen to be a part of Meta-Battler's story about that particular gameboard. And if we interpret it that way, then Genius Battler HAS to be true; as the writer of the story, such a scene could not exist without him telling it to us. His TIPS even say that he's ascended to a level of existence even higher than the Meta-World, if I recall correctly. |
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2010-06-20, 19:45 | Link #2113 | |||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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I can't say with certainty that I was the one who invented Genius Battler, but I am its biggest proponent, so...
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To that end, everyone but Beatrice must be absolutely fooled under all circumstances. This means Battler must not only fool Meta-Erika as observer and opponent, but Lambda and Bern as biased observers, Ronove and Virgilia (because he has to fool allies as well as enemies, though who knows if they're playing close to the vest on what they know), and very possibly the readers themselves in the meta-fictional context, that is, Featherinne and ANGE. Obviously, if Genius Battler is true, ryukishi as the top-level author also intended to fool the top-level reader, that is us. We are made to believe Battler is not capable of this even though:
If we want to buy that Battler is enlightened, we must concede it may be possible for him to come up with an enlightened plan. For that matter, the Kinzo-Battler parallels scattered through ep6 must have a literary purpose. What has ep1-4 been telling us Kinzo is doing? Whether it's true or not, what is he portrayed as doing? Doesn't that say enough?
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2010-06-20, 20:30 | Link #2114 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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I really thought the same thing as I read Umineko 6. It's totally absurd for Battler to intentionally do exactly what Erika wants him to every single time. I mean, there's no way he thought Erika would fall for fake deaths as the major trick TWICE IN A ROW. After that was exactly what caused her downfall in the previous game, Battler would have to be even less competent than he was in Episode 2 to be earnestly trying.
Furthermore, if Kanon is Kinzo, (which is the only solution to the Logic Error I can think of that doesn't involve a certain irritating theory) the only ones who would know would be Grandfather, Meta-Battler, Kanon himself, and Kanon's Beatrice - Shannon. Even if Erika is Shannon, Meta Erika is not inside Shannon's head. So Meta Erika wouldn't know. But Beatrice would, so that's why Battler used this mystery. It doesn't reveal the true nature of Beatrice, which is something Battler expressly refuses to do. What it does do is call on something no one else could know. |
2010-06-20, 20:34 | Link #2115 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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There's still a few outside-chance things I think would be hilarious if confirmed in ep7:
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2010-06-20, 20:40 | Link #2116 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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I don't think it's LIKELY, but it's certainly possible. Another awesome troll would simply be that both Erika-Doesn't-Exist and Shkanontrice are true, simply because the two factions don't exactly get along. |
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2010-06-20, 20:46 | Link #2117 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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When Kaisos mentioned the theory that Shannon's real name was Erika Ushiromiya I immediately thought of this theory Erika Ushiromiya dresses up as the two servants we know and love. Neither of whom actually exist. In that way both theories could be true in a sense.
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2010-06-20, 21:00 | Link #2118 |
Ace Detective
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
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Sentou, the ace detective, appears! The argument that Erika could be dressing up as a servant is more or less pointless. First off, There is nothing to indicate that Erika could manage to disguise herself as Shannon or Kanon Furthermore, There is no foreshadowing that shows Erika putting on Kanon's sexy beret, or Shannon's maid uniform.
Trying to get past Shkanon is a noble task, as quite frankly, I have no idea what is going on with three characters because of it, but you'll need more than that! There's only one theory that I've seen be a suitable alternate to Shkanon in regards to the locked room SNAFU in episode 6, and I'm sure you guys have shot it down before: Mainly, the idea that Jessica is the second Battler. |
2010-06-20, 21:02 | Link #2119 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Jessica's and Genji's names never being referred to in red in episode 6 when the red says all names refer to the actual people is what I thought lent credit to it.
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2010-06-20, 21:05 | Link #2120 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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