2009-08-12, 03:21 | Link #1841 | |
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Spoiler for HERE:
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2009-08-12, 03:47 | Link #1842 | |
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2009-08-12, 07:43 | Link #1844 | |
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Maybe you're right. I am now forming a conspiracy theory that intuits that there is some bias towards Sheryl by the writers and a desire by the same party to make Ranka look bad! Why couldn't we get some good character development for our favorite?? Now I'm starting to dislike Sheryl! jk I'm sorry but what flaws did Alto and Sheryl identify in themselves? You could very well be correct, but I didn't really see much growth in Alto. He does realize his dream to fly I guess. And Sheryl only showed some humility because she got sick and was unable to perform. I think people are a little hard on Ranka. I'm not into fan-fic, but if we re-wrote the story reversing Ranka's Sheryl's roles, for the sake of entertainment, the result would be the same. However, if Sheryl is as responsible and developed as people claim then maybe she would have told the authorities about Ai-kun, they would have exterminated it and that'd be the end of that. No half-baked plan to charge to the Vajra homeworld, and hence no communication with them. Grace wins; humanity becomes the Borg and now we're in Star Trek. No one wants that. I know I'm simplifying quite a bit, but I think Ranka's character played her role the only way the story would allow. |
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2009-08-12, 07:53 | Link #1845 | |
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That's a silly analogy but I'm just trying to say that it's not unrealistic for bad behavior to go unpunished. If you're familiar with American politics, sports or celebrity you'll know that "getting caught" is often rewarded I agree that in general people should suffer the consequences of their actions but sometimes it doesn't happen. Well it always happens in afterschool specials. |
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2009-08-12, 08:48 | Link #1847 | |
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2009-08-12, 08:55 | Link #1848 | ||
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Sheryl: Overconfidence, self-centeredness, isolation. Alto: Lack of direction, isolation, rudeness, aloofness. And to say that Sheryl only showed her humility because she got sick is like saying that Ranka only overcame her shyness because she got famous. Of course people change due to things happening to them, thatīs why we have a story. Quote:
Sheryl wouldnīt have destroyed half of Frontier with a heartbroken song, either. She is a professional, after all. Nobody would have gone to the Vajra homeworld, therefore Grace wouldnīt even have found it. As for the rest, it is difficult to say how it would have ended. Probably with either exterminated Vajra or an exterminated Frontier. Not to mention that it is impossible to predict how exactly things would have panned out. How would Sheryl behave in such a story? How would Ranka behave? Do they keep their personalities? How exactly does a shy superstar Ranka work? Canīt see her wearing those revealing outfits Sheryl favours. I fundamentally reject this notion of only seeing characters as plot devices which move the plot along. If this would be the prevalent notion of looking at a character, we could just stop discussion right now, wave our hands dismissively and say "Meh, doesnīt matter, sheīs just there to move the plot along".
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2009-08-12, 09:25 | Link #1849 |
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A little bit of comment (not intend to start any war in here)
I doubt Sheryl the professional songstress knows that emotionl can make the song go that way out of hand..if she does, then she will tell Ranka the problem when the song doesn't work...it's like no one knows the problem..Luca even says maybe they need a speaker to transmit the song It's easy to sing, but it's hard to get the emotion synched with the song..Sheryl, the more professional songstress, doesn't know emotion is the problem to cause the bugs go wild either (off topic, I think Miinmay's emotion is kind of similar to Ranka too when she sings the "Do you remember love"..but it's fortunate that 1)that song is also a sad song 2)The enemy is not as sensitive as Vajra) just my opinion
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2009-08-12, 09:36 | Link #1850 | |
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2009-08-12, 10:08 | Link #1852 | |
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My degree is in engineering and I work in IT so I know nothing about writing stories. Everything I post is just my take and not meant to offend. Hopefully it didn't come off that way. |
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2009-08-12, 10:10 | Link #1853 |
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While there are some characters that are visible antagonists, I don't think Macross is designed as a story about morality. Nor, for that matter, is overcoming personal "flaws" an essential part of character development; the vital change is occurs within the audience in their perception of the character. (This is where my stance differs from mag, since I couldn't care less about a character's "morality" (whatever that may mean), so long as they're interesting to watch.)
I think that the problem with Ranka's characterization towards the end of the series is that the presentation of her inner struggles is rushed. For example, her encounter with Ai in the woods is a turning point for her character, but it's unclear what her revelation actually is. Are her concerns specific to Ai in wanting to return him home? Does she have grand visions of stopping the ongoing war? Furthermore, the decision seems strange because we don't see what triggered it - did Ai tell her something, or was this idea something that suddenly struck her? Likewise, her conflict with Alto is also in want of some direction. From episode fifteen onwards, Ranka was conflicted between fighting the Vajra to make Alto happy, and resolving the feelings of discomfort that she felt whenever fighting them. By episodes twenty and twenty-one, Ranka was left with the feeling that he was simply using her as a tool to fight the Vajra. While the end of the conflict with the Vajra removes the need for Ranka and Alto to be on opposite sides, it's unclear how she resolved her feelings about being used between episode twenty-one and episode twenty-five. This is likewise a time issue, as it's the sort of thing that would require a face to face conversation to sort out. None of these are "character flaws" in the conventional sense. But the awkward presentation can make it difficult for the audience to relate to some of her decisions. I don't want to give the impression that we always need to be privy to all of a character's inner thoughts; the WTF factor you describe does have some delicious charm as it forces the audience to stay on their toes (this is part of what makes Sheryl so much fun during Star Date, for example). But you definitely need to be able to see what the "win condition" for a character is, if you want to be able to cheer them on to that end. |
2009-08-12, 10:37 | Link #1854 | |
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2009-08-12, 11:46 | Link #1855 | |
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Your point? Spell it out here. I'm not going to waste time writing every possible response to that picture. O.o
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2009-08-12, 12:01 | Link #1856 | |||
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As for the second topic, about how the characters just play out like the creators intended for the story, well, I already said that my viewpoint is totally different. I prefer to judge a character by how that character developed in the storyline, applying common sense modifiers against his actions. Assuming that a character behaved stupidly, just because the story had to move forward, doesnīt cut it with me. Since all the other characters in Macross Frontier did not exhibit this behaviour, Ranka stands out and gets that much of a bigger share of criticism from me. Quote:
That said, I donīt really get how you see the preceding discussion being about morality. Characters having development and overcoming personal flaws may be about their morality, but in the case of Macross Frontier, the characters morality isn't the main theme of the show. As for your assertion about that overcoming character flaws is not essential for character development, I cannot concur. A character which does not change is static. You can work around that as a storywriter, by presenting him in a wrong light and then revealing to the audience that their perspective simply was wrong, therefore reaching that change of perception you are alluding to. Also characters can, of course, change due to circunstances but simply be thrown from one inner perspective into the next, without abandoning any inherent flaws at all. But you canīt dismiss overcoming flaws as non-relevant for characterization and character growth. Other methods of characterization can be chosen by a writer, but it definitely is a part of the repertoire of character development. Quote:
Then use the search function. This has been discussed over.and.over.and.over again since November, in this very thread and others. You asking ( in a quite hostile tone, no less ) to have it spelled out yet again seems like nothing but an attempt to steal my time.
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Last edited by magnuskn; 2009-08-12 at 12:17. Reason: Grammar |
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2009-08-12, 12:27 | Link #1857 | |
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I'm not being hostile at all. O.o I am being blunt. Or direct, if you prefer. No more so than you've been on many occasions. I don't enjoy these huge multi-quote threads, so I'm getting straight to the heart of the matter. I assure you that I have no interest in wasting your time, but if you're welcome to make statements, I'm welcome to ask questions, no? |
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2009-08-12, 12:42 | Link #1858 | |
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Oh, very well. Letīs go down that well worn road again. a.) Ranka, due to her inability to control her feelings, unleashed the wrath of a million Vaijra on Macross Frontier, when she couldnīt comprehend the fact of the possibility that Sheryl had a dizzy spell and therefore landed in Altos arms. This is partly excusable by the situation, yet since one episode later she clearly was able to control the Vajra once more ( still with a broken heart ), the question remains if she couldnīt have gotten herself enough under control to help Frontier before it was wrecked by the vast Vajra swarm. b.) Her fleeing Frontier with Brera was deeply, deeply irresponsible. At the moment she went away, she was the only defense Frontier had against the Vajra. It is only through the happenstance that Sheryl did possess similar talents as Ranka, due to the V-Type infection, that Frontier didnīt suffer catastrophic losses in further battles against the Vajra. Neither should it be disregarded that Ranka didnīt have much of a clue as to what expected her on the Vajra homeworld. She was simply hoping that her powers would provoke a friendly reception, meaning she essentially went on a suicide mission. Not to forget, if it hadnīt been for Leons own deceitfulness, Grace *would* be the God-Queen of the Macross universe.
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2009-08-12, 13:12 | Link #1859 | |
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Why Ranka song works in the next episode? it's either because 1)She is a fast learner, she notices this problem or 2) The seriousness of this incident makes her focus more. But the reason 1 and 2 don't take away the fact that Ranka did intend to help in the previous episode. And it is especially hard for Ranka when no one ever tells her why her song works...no one tells her that emotion is the key to control those bugs...if she knew that emotion is the key before that episode, then she is partly responsible for letting those bugs go loose..if she didn't know beforehand, which I assume this is the case, then it's hard to criticize her for letting those bugs go loose So in summary, from my opinion, Ranka gives it 100% in both episodes (during that Vajra's rampage arc) too bad she didn't know how to use her power effectively..but that isn't her fault at all As for your point b, I seem to remember that I response those viewpoints not so long ago, so I will not make a reply in here
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2009-08-12, 13:33 | Link #1860 | ||
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I'm sorry if that's how it seems, but I assure you it's not the case. I've always tried to keep the tone polite - discussing anime isn't so important to me that I'm going to get upset over it - and I've simply tried to reply as I've been spoken to. I've never spoken down to anyone, I've never questioned anyone's intelligence, I've never been intentionally rude, I've tried to address everything in a factual manner and cite references to the series and real world where applicable, and I've remained calm and conducted my replies with an even tone. I don't see that as being hostile, but if it is, I'm sorry. Quote:
A) Emotional control? Other characters have had similar lapses... Sheryl, Alto, Michael, Ozma... It's human nature. She's not a Vulcan. Sorry. In addition to this, she didn't want to sing - it was Alto and Sheryl that put her up to it. So lets review:
B) It was Brera's decision to leave. Blame him for leaving the fleet 'defenseless' (not that it actually was at that point as you can see from the episodes after he left - Alto, Luca and the NUNS squadron employed effective countermeasures against the Vajra by preventing communication and therefore their 'super evolution'). As for Grace - if Ranka hadn't been involved, then it would have been Sheryl in her place. That's the whole reason she was infected with the v-type virus in the first place. In neither case was she either directly responsible or more responsible than others for bringing harm or death to anyone. |
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