Aquarion EVOL - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[Faerie]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

because he's not indulging some people's wishes about their favorite character.

I'm pretty sure this was about AmataxMikono sucking as a couple for many many separate reasons which relate only to these two, independent of any accompanying preference of the poster for other characters

I didn't see any bashing either.

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by Zuul

Another theory is that Okada and the writting staff didn't like what Kawamori wanted to go.

For example one could think they didn't like the concept of third wheel having to suffer from unrequited love watching the main couple being all lovey dovey. So they decided to show Zessica's affection in a better light than Mikono's very vague feelings (we are supposed to gauge them on the behalf of how much more Shushu abuses Amata than the rest), and also gives her better romantic moment. Just to subtly crap on Kawamori's intentions.

And now we have Kawamori's interviews showing his butthurt about the lack of support the main couple get from the fandom.

If it's that I can understand the writters reaction. The way the main love drama is crafted is baaaaaaaaaad ( and it's probably Kawamori's doing). The writters are supposed to pull something satisfying out of it, but it's impossible. They get frustrated and finally decide to make things worse.

I cannot believe experienced writters could come up with something so underwhelming/irritating not knowing what they were doing, while they did a fairly decent job with secondary romance.

Agreed. The writers did do a good job with the secondary characters and their relationships, that's something a lot of series don't accomplish.

Like you said, it feels like some wires got crossed during the writing and development process with the main characters, their relationships, and the main story, and it shows and suffers. Okada may be in charge of writing it, but Kawamori is the head honcho and therefore has final say on what is final, for better or for worse

I didn't know anything about a Kawamori interview where he complained about the lack of support for Amata/Mikono, but hey you get what you give.

[queenSwild]

Wait. Are you talking about the interview that's in the Speculation/Spoilers thread?If so, I didn't see any lines that said he was angry about the lack of support for the main couple. He didn't say anything about Amata. It was about Mikono.

Mikono showed a little worry for Kagura and now they're saying she's fickle (laughs bitterly). You can't make sweeping judgments on people so easily.

He said this. ^

If we're not talking about the same interview, then where did you find that? That's actually pretty hilarious. :P

I'm just gonna go with the Mari Okada "Doesn't know how write a romantic long-running series" theory.. The same thing happened in Hanasaku Iroha.The main pair didn't interact all that much due to plot circumstances along with useless filler. Unlike Aquarion, the roles were switched, the main character (the girl) is the wishy washy one, while the "male love interest" is the one who clearly likes her. Like Amata, the "male love interest" liked the girl since the beginning of the series (he confessed to her), while the main girl was really "wishy washy" and undecided until the end . Although she didn't get it as bad as Mikono because she was the main character/protagonist and things were seen from her point of view, so we didn't see how her indeciveness affected the guy until we heard it from the girl that likes him. (Who all the fans hated because she was apparently wrong and in the way.. :P ). All in all, they still got together in the end.

I don't think they were trying to go for a "deconstruction" of love either since nobody has ever pointed out how stupid people have been acting because of it and they've never been punished/berated for it. Nobody has ever berated Amata for listening in on Mikono's conversations, he was instead pushed on by Andy. Kagura was criticized by Izumo for choosing Mikono over the world. That was until Izumo had a "Ah HA!" moment and somehow realized he was wrong instead. Alicia did think that abandoning Amata for love was stupid until Amata (The person abandoned) said "Oh No! It's not your fault! You were in love!". The person who punishes people for love (Mykage) is the bad guy, and we're supposed to be against him. We were supposed to sob for Alicia & Izumo (Which I didn't), blame Mykage for Zessica's downfall (Which I do ,but most people don't), and blame all the horrible things that happen in the series on him.( Which I do, but most people blame it on the main characters). So unless Mykage wins in the end, I don't think that this is a deconstruction.

[KleenexGhost]

queenSwild That is pretty funny.

So it really does seem like the show was just handled poorly.

I can see why people want to consider it a deconstruction because Kawamori can be a troll at times and throw out unexpected twists and Okada is an experienced writer, so you wouldn't expect the show to go this far of the rails.

I'm learning a lot about Okada through these discussions. I kinda take back what I said about her earlier. She may be experienced but it does seem like she was the wrong person for the job. However, Kawamori does get some of the blame too. Like I said, he is the guy in charge so he has final say and everything has to be approved by him so he had to see these problems with Evol.

[queenSwild]

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

queenSwild That is pretty funny.

So it really does seem like the show was just handled poorly.

I can see why people want to consider it a deconstruction because Kawamori can be a troll at times and throw out unexpected twists and Okada is an experienced writer, so you wouldn't expect the show to go this far of the rails.

Yeah, it seems so.

But actually, the unexpected twist ( Apollo = Pollon) wasn't Kawamori, it was Okada. :P

This is from the same interview I quoted from earlier.

If you watch Genesis of Aquarion again, you should be able to catch a glimpse of it. Honestly, I wanted to reveal it back in Genesis, but the romance between Apollo and Silvia took over and we lost the chance to show it. Okada said "You never used such an interesting plot point, what a waste!" To find out whether all the viewers would say "What? He was a dog?" or "Oh, he was the dog!" the only way for us was to lift the lid and see! To be frank, I was also a bit scared at what the reaction would be (laughs).

Don't give up on her yet though! Just look for her 12 episode series instead of the long ones. AnoHana will always be one of my favorites.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Zuul

Another theory is that Okada and the writting staff didn't like what Kawamori wanted to go.

I agree with you here. As I've argued at least a couple times before on this series subforum, Aquarion EVOL often strikes me as a show that can't decide if it wants to go with a simple straight-up romance, or if it wants to go with a serious love triangle/quadrangle (so both gets half-assed).

With a duo like Okada/Kawamori, it wouldn't surprise me if Okada wanted one thing, while Kawamori wanted the other, and they kind of settled on this messy compromise.

Here's the thing: Kagura and Zessica get the screen-time/attention that's usually afforded only to serious romance competitors. Granted that both have important "Action Star" roles, but both have a lot of scenes that go beyond that (especially Zessica).

But Amata/Mikono has been treated as a fait accompli for probably a dozen or more episodes now (arguably even before then), with neither showing much doubt over it (Mikono getting turned on by Kagura is about the only time Amata/Mikono seems even remotely threatened).

If they were going to go with an unresolved love quadrangle for this long, then they should have shown more doubt and internal conflict on the parts of Amata and Mikono - Amata thinking things like "You know, Zessica isn't bad... she's pretty cool and attractive and she's great in combat... should I just accept fate, and find greener pastures in greener hair?", and Mikono thinking things like "Kagura... Kagura stirs me so. My heart flutters in his presence! Amata's a great guy, but Kagura truly excites me."

Granted, you can almost infer such thoughts from how Mikono reacts to Kagura, but it might be nice to have it be clear-cut so that even the most hardcore Amata/Mikono shippers would be left in suspense (with a smidgen of doubt) over whether or not their desired ship would successfully set sail.

As it is, they focus on an overly predictable romance conflict (if you can even call it that), and Amata/Mikono is artificially frozen in pre-Confession stage because of it (so that means that they don't get to actually say anything all that compelling to each other).


The net effect is that it makes Amata look weak compared to the much more assertive and passionate Kagura, and it makes Mikono's love look mild to the overflowing, highly expressive love Zessica is pouring forth towards Amata.

It's the romance equivalent of a plucky underdog sports team that gives it everything that they have against a much more talented team that just goes effortlessly through the motions but wins by sheer luck/talent. It's a frankly horrible narrative if you want to emotionally appeal to your viewers (and let's face, nothing is more about emotional appeal than romance is).

As much as I preferred a certain pairing more than the final one in True Tears, at least I can say that the narrative did a great job of making the girl who won out in the end really have to pour out her heart and passion to the male lead in order to win him over. By comparison, Mikono is just coasting along, from one Damsel in Distress moment to the next to the next...

This is what - Three episodes now in which Mikono's lines and plot relevance could be summed up on the back of a paper napkin? And she's supposed to be the female half of the main pairing, for crying out loud!

[Thess]

Originally Posted by queenSwild

He said this. ^

That was translated as "fickle"? It was... meaning as something a little more misogynistic and nasty. I suppose it carries the same idea.

The Japanese audience are hating/bashing Mikono like no other Kawamori heroine before. I mean the western fandom has hated some of his heroines (Ranka, Minmay, Myung, etc) but they were popular in Japan (in particular Minmay!). Not such thing with Mikono, it seems. This seem to include the own series staff, including Amata's voice actor.

Mikono is a little useless and badly written (like... the majority of the character who aren't called Mykage. She could have been a lot more interesting in the hands of competent writers), but the vitriol is pretty surprising.

Yeah, the series' writing is awful. They were all interesting characters before they ruined them with shoddy execution... But it's like a trainwreck, I can't help but watch. I'll always remember fondly the enjoyable first 13 episodes cour.

[miketyson]

It's really that bad over there, huh?

Don't have much to say past that.

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by queenSwild

Yeah, it seems so.

But actually, the unexpected twist ( Apollo = Pollon) wasn't Kawamori, it was Okada. :P

This is from the same interview I quoted from earlier.



Don't give up on her yet though! Just look for her 12 episode series instead of the long ones. AnoHana will always be one of my favorites.

queenSwild lol Well I will give her this, she did throw us something unexpected. And, I think she was involved with Black Rock Shooter, which I like.

Triple R Like you said some wires definitely got crossed during development. The series can't decide to follow through on things it introduces. It just feels a little too predictable. I think in the right hands and if they handled her properly Amata, Mikono, Zessica and Kagura could be a great characters.

Thess I always thought Mikono was kinda taking up space but I didn't think she was that poorly received. And I find it funny that Yuki Kaji has stated that he doesn't like the character of Mikono, when he himself has voiced characters like Shu and Hope.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by miketyson

It's really that bad over there, huh?

Don't have much to say past that.

It seems bad enough that Kawamori had to address it. I hate that insult. It's not a shipping issue, it's an otaku fanbase issue.

I think the problem they had is that they tried to appeal to girls and guys and got caught in the middle. The girls like Mikono... but with Kagura. The men (who are the bigger fanbase) don't like Mikono very much.

And yes, the writing has been less than stellar with their main characters. They did it well for the secondary ones: Look at Yunoha, Jin and Yunoha/Jin. They managed to appeal all of their demographic with it. They expressed regret after killing off Jin because they realized all to late that this was their cashcow. Look at the Aquarion Evol episodes poll in the main website. Most popular are the ones focused on Jin/Yunoha.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Thess

The Japanese audience are hating/bashing Mikono like no other Kawamori heroine before. I mean the western fandom has hated some of his heroines (Ranka, Minmay, Myung, etc) but they were popular in Japan (in particular Minmay!). Not such thing with Mikono, it seems.

Interesting. I'd recently been wondering if the Amata/Mikono pairing had only fallen flat with us foreign fans. But it sounds like it's not being well-received in Japan either.

I guess that really goes to show the truth of what many of us have been saying.

This seem to include the own series staff, including Amata's voice actor.

That's actually darkly hilarious.

Poor guy. He doesn't like Mikono, and yet he has to say her name, constantly.

In all seriousness, I wonder how this'll affect the seiyu work for Amata when the big romantic moment occurs...

But it's like a trainwreck, I can't help but watch. I'll always remember fondly the enjoyable first 13 episodes cour.

Yeah, I'm more or less with you there.

Aquarion EVOL is now somewhere between "Actual Trainwreck" and "Fun Mess" to me. It's definitely fun to talk about. But it's disappointing how it's all turned out compared to the first cour. Back in the first cour, I found the romance aspect of the show a lot more compelling, and the show also just felt more fun back then.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Interesting. I'd recently been wondering if the Amata/Mikono pairing had only fallen flat with us foreign fans. But it sounds like it's not being well-received in Japan either.

I don't think it was unpopular during the first 13 episodes (I was rooting for them), but later... yeah...

It isn't that ZessicaxAmata is popular. Male audience is less concerned about that. They like Zessica as character, they like MIX and Yunoha and Sanzanka. Some like Mikono, but they are outnumbered by her insane hatred.

The female audience prefer their bad boys pairings.

Amata isn't very popular either. Jin and Kagura have always been more popular. He's mostly ignored rather than hated. Last episode bought him woobie points and people are hating on his parents now.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yeah, I'm more or less with you there.

Aquarion EVOL is now somewhere between "Actual Trainwreck" and "Fun Mess" to me. It's definitely fun to talk about. But it's disappointing how it's all turned out compared to the first cour. Back in the first cour, I found the romance aspect of the show a lot more compelling, and the show also just felt more fun back then.

Oh definitely.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Thess

I don't think it was unpopular during the first 13 episodes (I was rooting for them), but later... yeah...

Yeah, I liked Amata/Mikono during the first 13 episodes myself. But they've just dragged it out too long, and made the alternatives look more compelling or at least more interesting, imo.

In retrospect, they probably should have had Mikono romantically confess to Amata before she went after Fudo. It could have been a powerful, effective, timely scene. They could have it be setup that Mikono pushed herself to do it in light of Zessica's confession.

That one change could have really helped, I think.

It isn't that ZessicaxAmata is popular.

Male audience is less concerned about that. They like Zessica as character, they like MIX and Yunoha and Sanzanka. Some like Mikono, but they are outnumbered by her insane hatred.

The female audience prefer their bad boys pairings.

Amata isn't very popular either. Jin and Kagura have always been more popular. He's mostly ignored rather than hated. Last episode bought him woobie points and people are hating on his parents now.

Not that different from us on Anime Suki then.


Truly, I don't want Zessica/Amata now. It would feel like one of the cheapest plot twists of all time now.

I just hope that Zessica gets either a semi-happy ending, or failing that, a Shrade-level sendoff. Realistically speaking, I think that a Shrade-level sendoff is the best we can hope for when it comes to Zessica...

[miketyson]

It's interesting, I don't really read Japanese-language anime discussion much so it's all news to me.

I am just going to wait until this show is over to really think about it too seriously I guess. If the creator is acting upset that this is one big misfire with the fans, it means it's going to be hard to tell what he's really going for until I see the ending.

Thanks for the insight, Thess.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I just hope that Zessica gets either a semi-happy ending, or failing that, a Shrade-level sendoff. Realistically speaking, I think that a Shrade-level sendoff is the best we can hope for when it comes to Zessica...

I'm rooting for Mykage. He saved Altair last episode.

Originally Posted by miketyson

I am just going to wait until this show is over to really think about it too seriously I guess. If the creator is acting upset that this is one big misfire with the fans, it means it's going to be hard to tell what he's really going for until I see the ending.

I'm half watching this to see the fanbase meltdown after it's over.

[mayumi]

Japanese fans have a huge liking for Silvia and Apollo ship. So they were rather pissed at the dog revelation even though it does look like clues were there. They like Silvia a whole lot more than Mikono. Most of them can't imagine that Mikono is Silvia's reincarnation.

The fact that Amata and Mikono ship has stalled forever and even if the ending 2 eps make up for it, is just not well developed enough to feel that it is a good ending. Compared to how Kawamori says he focused on Silvia and Apollo pairing so left out the dog reveal cause he did develop them. But for Mikono he actually has to defend her. That's not good for main heroine.

The only way they can redeem this is if they show Apollo's VA and soul after Amagura merge and Silvia's VA and soul from Mikono. If Apollo's and Silvia's soul hug and kiss, they can make up Mikono-Amagura ending. The fans want to see Apollo and Silvia get together and if they do they would be happy even if it means that it is Amagura and Mikono representing Apollo and Silvia.

It looks like Apollo's VA and Touma's VA were mentioned to have been present in the last ep recording. So I am sure Silvia's VA was there too and Apollo's and Silvia's soul will probably come out of Amagura and Mikono's bodies. Though I am sure Apollo and Silvia's soul would be rather disgusted how their reincarnations turned out.

Not to mention it goes everything about fate and crap they wrote episodes back. No matter how many times Amata's says he like Mikono for who she is now, it doesn't change the fact that he is Apollo who promised to Silvia, wings or no wings.

[Destined_Fate]

I don't think Apollo and Silvia kissing will fix this. Amata and Mikono are nothing like them, thus their kiss wouldn't have as much meaning to angry Apollo and Silvia fans. Many of which are still pretty darn ticked about the whole dog deal. They would always have Fudo back off on that an say he was lying to tick off Mykage and leave the others in the dark because he's the true king troll of EVOL. Not to mention that even if they're using reincarnation it doesn't give them an excuse for gettng Apollo and Silvia to work but than failing terribly with Amata and Mikono. They may be reincarnations but they're still different enough and live in a different time that fans expected them to at least get development worthy of the End Game Pairing like Apollo and Silvia did. Even Apollonius and Celiane work better than Amata and Mikono and those two have very little screentime for their love for each other.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This is what - Three episodes now in which Mikono's lines and plot relevance could be summed up on the back of a paper napkin? And she's supposed to be the female half of the main pairing, for crying out loud!

Spoiler for Beware of much text, I'm hiding it for the sake of scrolling:

I'm starting to question that myself, and I sometimes have to question where the actual misdirection is in this show. We'll find out soon enough but the damsel role has rather nefariously been switched right under our noses, which is a bit funny when you think about it (as has the role of aggressor, because it most certainly isn't going to be Kagura come next episode). Mikono is in no way a damsel in distress in this or last episode, you'd have to bend over backwards to think she is from the point of view of the audience. The show is riddled with word choice and scene execution that really begs for better pacing and shows signs of what could be but never quite is... and I'm not too far from blaming it on the staff thinning and trading with AKB. If Okada had not been split on script duty between two shows (with most of AKB being written solely by her episode to episode), you'd probably have kept a good, consistent nature with EVOL that was present early on but that was lost around where we lost Jin (and Okada, funnily enough).

I have a pretty good idea where this is all going (might be wrong but I'm following the gut) and I've seen signs of it all through the show, tracing as far back as the the first episodes, but the erratic pacing and somewhat inconsistent transitions between episodes has really *hidden* (and not in a good way) what was likely meant to be more obvious foreshadowing. (Or I'm talking clean out my ass, but I'll humor my idea that I'm not completely off mark.) Probably the biggest problem of the episodes is the disjoint between one to the next. You can see this in 21-22, 22-23, 23-24:

[End. 21 - Beg. 22] Amata refuses to abandon Zessica and she's forced to make him fly off, focus was heavily on Amata and Zessica, and the episode ends as Amata is running back to where Zessica was buried but meets Kagura. At the start of 22, he's completely engulfed by his meeting with Kagura, focus completely shifts Kagura and Amata fighting over Mikono, Zessica is an afterthought.

[End. 22 - Beg. 23] Desperate chase after Mikono who was just kidnapped and cast as the damsel in distress, a great sense of urgency. Next episode focus has entirely shifted to Shrade and Zessica, and there's no real sign of urgency from Amata about Mikono, Mikono has become an afterthought.

[End. 23 - Beg. 24] Mikono begins to slip out of the role of damsel, Kagura is very much there to protect her, and Zessica slips into the role of damsel, no one is there and she's more or less kidnapped by Mykage. In Ep.24 Amata seems to have entirely forgotten about Mikono and goes off on an adventure, Zessica doesn't seem to exist anymore, Mikono raises perplexing flags of perplexity (but I guess this is more or less the role she's been relegated to in the story), and Kagura is stuck in the flow of events.

If the transitions had been handled a bit better, there'd probably have been a more obviously consistent message from Eps. 21-24: symbolically, foreshadowing, or otherwise, but instead characters behave almost like chickens with their heads cutoff. I think there's probably a message there to be found but it won't be very apparent until we get 20/20 vision in hindsight.

I know people don't agree with this but look at the transition that's available to be (possibly) taken as intended (but also capable of being nothing but coincidences):
The role of aggressor:

1. Amata attacks Kagura on two notes in Ep. 22, mother and Mikono, Kagura was a non-aggressor.
2. Amata's going to be attacking Kagura on two notes next episode (Ep. 25) too, mother having just gotten the *rocks fall everyone dies* treatment and Mikono, Kagura may well again be the non-aggressor.

To underscore all of this is that the former and the latter are both underscored by misunderstanding driving the conflict. Amata believes Mikono was in physical danger, now he believes that Kagura killed his mother. In reality he did not, and has been fighting rather desperately to protect Mikono. It's almost like your building a dichotomy of trust vs. doubt, and looking back on many past episodes you could certainly build a case for it, but is it anything? All of this (and other events) could play into one large underflowing message, it most certainly looks like it is on close inspection, but with how the show has handled transitions and characters recently, you have to wonder if this isn't just coincidence.

At the end of the day, the biggest problem is the pacing and the transition. If this is turned into a movie, many of these problems (particularly the startling gaps of inactivity between romantic interests) could be potentially fixed and you'd get a much better product overall. (No matter which romantic *end game* they were going for, having nothing happen for spans of 6-12 episodes for characters was a bit absurd, but probably an after effect of trying to be coy and keep the whole quadrangle alive for longer than was really necessary.)

[miketyson]

Vena: I think I see where you're going here, and I think I see it too (), framing it in terms of trust versus doubt does make it run back pretty far if you think about it a bit, I think.

In any case, although I've not been a fan of the "fighting fate" phrasing, one thing that has also occurred to me on further thought: I think it was you who already pointed out that Kagura and Amata reflect their father and mother respectively (put a woman in front of an entire world, fell in love at first sight...).

If they are trying to go with a "fighting fate" theme, one thing that comes to mind is not just repeating the things your parents did. Given how carefully they told the parents' story I have to wonder if that idea will see some use in EVOL.

[Destined_Fate]

Though does a series like EVOL even deserve the Movie treatment? Seeing how bad they dropped the ball with the series I don't have much hope they'll salvage it with an even shorter Movie. Though they just might use it as an excuse to bring Zessica up again just to torture her for loving Amata since she's not destined for anyone apparently.