2010-08-04, 00:59 | Link #241 | |
The One Eyed King
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lurking Up Ahead
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Then it was... um... is she working for someone or was Tabitha a spy or something. I then jumped on that idea thinking "I knew it! The bitch was just worming her way closer to Miria for secrets... XD"... This was followed by utter confusion and me scratching my head and thinking that sounded very weird and not logical. Then I realized i was dumbfounded and hoped maybe Weils has summarized the chapter... then scampered off to check for it. I was happy to learn he had. After reading it I then had to then ponder why she'd do this and not just take her with her, even though the idea made sense the shock of it really confused me. Until I recalled Miria seemed to want the ghosts to stay up north and was planning to take on the org by herself. She didn't even tell them about the truth of the org and the mainland until Galatea questioned her about it. I think Yagi's been planning this for a while and giving us subtle clues we all missed. One thing is for certain I'm going to have to adapt to this character change like I did with Clare after ch 100 when she stated she planned all along to awaken against Priscilla. I think all the ghosts have really lost it after Pieta and no one noticed... especially since all of them seemed to have held in there pain and never opened up about it. I mean look at Cynthia who would have guessed she was suicidal too
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2010-08-04, 01:46 | Link #242 | |
Insufficiently Inebriated
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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I don't see what all the controversy is about here. Miria's actions in this chapter fit in perfectly with what we've seen of her character in the past. She's always been torn between two competing goals - destroying the Org. and protecting her comrades. Knowing the fight against the Org. to likely be a suicide mission, she didn't particularly want the ghosts to accompany her in the first place (save perhaps Clare, but more likely she simply knew there was no stopping Clare). Likewise, I'm all but certain that she intended to attack on her own the entire time; the way she encouraged the group to disperse once they got to Rabona certainly supports this view. Attacking Tabatha the way she did may be a little harsh, but this is Tabatha after all. It was the only way to stop Tabatha (one of the weakest members of the group in terms of combat capability) from following. Assaulting the Org. head on is also in character. When have we ever known Miria to not attack directly? Miria's smart, but she's not particularly cunning. Stealth and misdirection are not her thing. |
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2010-08-04, 02:21 | Link #243 | |
Dark Lord of Animesuki
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Kingdom of Orange...you can't beat the Cuse, in basketball or snowfall!
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Sure Miria is out for revenge upon the Organization above all else, but she's also been seen as a social, caring claymore. Cutting down Tabitha without even a word of regret to immobilize her and making a lethal threat to Galatea to not interfere seems out of character to the kinder, gentler Miria we've seen before. This is after all the same girl that cried for her comrades' passing and felt guilty she couldn't save more in a suicide mission. Contrast that with the girl that just chopped down Tabitha and told Galatea not to stop her "or else" and you can understand why I'm annoyed at Yagi's writing here. At worst Miria should've chopped down Tabitha, then said "Sorry, but this is for your own good". The threat against Galatea could've been tamped down, and nobody would've seen anything quite as unrealistic. I know Yagi's aiming for shock, but why doesn't that shock quite conform to his own character development? My only hope is that Miria lives somehow and, if captured, the Ghosts mount a heroic rescue effort to save her from the Organization's experimentation.
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2010-08-04, 02:42 | Link #244 | |
Insufficiently Inebriated
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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Not falling for Rubel's lure is an example of smarts; it has nothing to do with cunning. Rubel himself, on the other hand, is extremely cunning - and pretty much the polar opposite of Miria in every aspect. |
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2010-08-04, 03:15 | Link #245 |
Miria's #1 Disciple
Join Date: Apr 2007
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I don't have much time at the moment to get into discussion, but I'd just like to say:
HA! I told you you anti-Miria conspirators that she would still attack the Organization even if she was alone, and here some people were claiming she was manipulating her comrades to go attack the Organization with her. --------- That aside, I agree that this is totally in character for Miria, if a bit rash. The Organization's strongest warriors are out of commision, and she already saw the strength of #3 and #5 (who are clearly no challenge to her). The big surprise was the shrimp twins, although by Rubel's own words, Miria will probably defeat them both (though whether they will be alive or dead afterwords is another matter entirely). I am worried what the Organization's "final trump card" will be. My guess is that the MiB that Miria plans on killing are not so much the helpless human Miria thinks they are (I know, rather obvious from our perspective), or something that has to do with the Dragons. Raki doesn't seem a likely option, simply because not enough time has passed for him to have even arrived at the Organization, much less so for them to somehow turn him into the Organization's "final trump card."
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2010-08-04, 03:16 | Link #246 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Italy
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I'll say this brutally:Miria was an idiot.
Attacking the org with a solo action is just plain stupidity,it was absolutely obvious that the org had some other secrets to protect themselves. And btw Miria being the strongest is BS,the org was making plans to defeat AO-level enemies (and who know what else) while Miria strenght is CLEARLY inferior to the abyssals. ....and btw Claire is already stronger than Miria if she fight seriously with the QS,infact now the only living beings on the island that can survive a QS attack are Priscilla and maybe some other org's secret weapon. About the new twins: we know almost nothing about them but even if their soul link is clearly better than Alicia-Beth i don't know why but i doubt that they are as strong as Alicia,to tell the truth i'm not very impressed with them,but maybe that's due to the fact that we come from a fight between Prissy and CtD where the powers involved are immensely superior. edit:.......now that i think about it, even if it would be VERY strange for a lot of reasons,do you think that Miria went to the org knowing perfectly that it was possible that she couldn't win fighting normally so she is ready to fully awaken in a worst-case scenario? If that's the case this would explain a bit why she went for a solo mission, and awakened-Miria should be AO-level,inferior to Priscilla and CtD but still too much for the org to handle atm (unless they have some other secrets,you never know with them....). Last edited by MalakTawus; 2010-08-04 at 03:31. |
2010-08-04, 04:36 | Link #247 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Netherlands
Age: 36
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I think she overestimated her chances of succes and by thinking that she still can take tough opponents down with phantom moves only. |
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2010-08-04, 05:11 | Link #248 | ||||
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Poland
Age: 37
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Clare's idée fixe is to shoot away Priscilla. Clare's failed effort to awaken is just the proof how strong is the wrench after killing and being survived by Jean. This full yoma power release stopper was a good thing for her, even if she judged it differently, because everyone know that transformation wouldn't help Clare even a bit. I also believe that all Ghosts, especially Helen beside Clare, are far from awakening now, consciously or unconsciously. But I feel that Miria is one that could somehow overcome this memorial burden. Quote:
There is no much difference if you try to understand her motives. (And she cannot cry for lost comrades forever, but on the other hand it doesn't mean she forgot about them. She just keeps this sorrow inside her, just like the other claymores). She is now much stronger mentally. It is possible that 7 years ago she wouldn't be able to unexpectedly attack Tabitha, but she knows her better now and it was only for Tabitha's sake, at least I feel it that way. Ghosts are mostly involved now in looking at the remains of Clare. And Clarice with Miata are not so helpful, because Galatea was fighting them rather on par and we know that Miria is now a better warrior than former ORG's eye. But who knows, maybe Deneve, Helen & Co will stop watching Priscilla vs Destroyer show and go after Mira... Quote:
Maybe Maria saying she confirmed all the revelations was a partial lie, because she actually never sneaked into ORG. Things possible to check outside of the ORG she possibly checked, but maybe nothing more? Quote:
--- Yes, Rubel is canny and smart, but it's easy to explain. It's not sure in which generation ORG will be taken down, so he cannot be strongly attached to anyone involved in plans of rampaging the ORG from inside and outside. That is also why he's not revealing all truth to everyone and keeps some data in secret from both sides. So... today Miria, tomorrow Genowefa. |
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2010-08-04, 07:14 | Link #249 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Italy
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And btw i REALLY doubt that she thinks she can use the same trick as Claire,afterall it's something that for a normal claymore is pratically impossible, the only reason that Claire was able to do it is because she's only a quarter yoma and even for her it's something extremely difficult (maybe now she could control herself,but the first time if it wasn't for Jean......). |
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2010-08-04, 08:25 | Link #250 | |
Thread Hijacker
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In a hole, I just need to dig myself out
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The thing that grates me, is that I feel Yagi is becoming more and more like the common author in suddenly revealing these new characters mid-chapter for the sake of shock and awe. While I understand why these new trainee twins were inevitable and logical, I can't get over the feeling that they will be defeated next chapter and they will end up as nothing more as one-shot characters and I hate characters like that; it's the same fuss I put over Infected Dauf, who we all knew had no chance against Priscilla to begin with. I understand again that more on the soul-liking project would occur, but at the very least, I was surprised. While everyone's feelings on Miria seems to be split, I share both; while I agree that her actions match her character(I like what you said Ryus about her intentionally withholding information from the others), I also feel her actions were rash: she could have indeed done Recon or gone for a stealth-assault with her superspeed at the cover of dark or something....their are so many options that were available instead of pounding on their front door and going rambo on everyone.
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2010-08-04, 09:05 | Link #251 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
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grumble.....why do I have a sneaky suspicion that Raki is the trump card and new priscilla, he'll slaughter Miria to show how POWERFUL he is and Clare will have to work with/bond/get something from Priss in order to stop/save him. Since they both have feelings for him and is the one thing that could get them to stop fighting.
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2010-08-04, 10:07 | Link #252 |
Clare's #1 fan
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida
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" Miria is perfect at making her enemies pass out". I think Yagi made that up for convenience. Claymores are not suppose to kill humans, so why is she an expert in making people pass out?
Ok maybe she used that skill to infiltrate the Org, but doing so would have made the Org realize that someone is spying on them. I still think he made that up for convenience.
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2010-08-04, 10:25 | Link #253 | |||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
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It all comes down to what happens when one awakens completely. For all we know once a Claymore awakens they reach their true potential. The only known way to reach even higher is to half awaken (and we have no clear idea why and how that workds - only theories). In other words since the twins go in AB form and completely relese their yoki they should be at their highest level. Alicia and Beth's training was for the Soul Link - to increase the time span Alicia could be in AB form and to reduce the strain on Beth's mind (and also for Beth to be able to move at least a bit). Since these new twins are better at the Soul Link (no idea about how long they can keep that up though) that means they are either some prodigies or they went trough sufficient training during those 7 years. Also while twins are rare, it's not like it isn't easy to find twins on the whole island. Both times the MiBs tried the Soul Link it was with warriors that were No1 and No2. I see no reason why they would do this with less powerfull ones at this point. An AB that is under your control is redundant if it's less powefull than a No1 warrior. The Soul Link is a very huge investment so it's natural for the MiBs to use the best they can find - and I doubt they picked up just one random set of twins and trained them - they probably started training the most proimissing ones. In other words they should become No1 and No2 in the future. Since they release all their yoki when they awaken that means that they can now reach their maximum strength meaning around AO level, and while they probably don't have a lot of combat experience outside training the fact they both can go in AB form and have full control over all their yoki and awakened body parts should give them the advantage in this case. Quote:
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But yes it probably means they are still trainees. In shor at this point they are probably a less powerfull than Alicia and Beth in terms of how they can actually fight (in short they lack combat experience) but on par when in comes to yoki. They can also switch between AB and normal form in a instant so that gives them another edge. In short they are close to AO level and if Miria can take out those two it will be plain weird imo. Quote:
After all the MiBs should have considered Alicia awakening and becoming an AO herself and yet they were sure they could handle that without their No1 and No2. In other words they had the power to stop an AO without Alicia, Beth and the AFs. Quote:
It's true that it's hard to find twins, however since the MiBs are a huge organization and they have a lot of power and money I'm sure they can find twins, they can even use some from the mainland now that they know how to make the soul link work. Of course most of the twins they find won't be good enough and won't be worth developing since I can't imagine why they would waste efforts on ones they would be less powerful than the top 5 at least. The Soul Linking Claymore would still be rare but my point was that all they need now to make them work is twins and time since it's no longer an experiment. And as I mentioned before Miria had no plan this chapter. The only one who could detect her is Galatea and that's because she is the ultimate eye at this point. It's highly unlikely that the MiBs would have created someone better. Alos if the have an eye it's probably colser to Alicia, Beth and Riful to keep an "eye" on things there. Sorry for repeating this again but Miria's view on how to take down and Organization are really not what I would expect from a character like her. What revan said here http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=243 is very true. While Ryus has a point that there were many hints that Miria wanted to do this on her own acting like this won't do any good. You can't really destroy an organization by fighting them on your own, though if she just wants to die trying to avange her comrades this is the best way to do it. Quote:
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There are a lot of things left unsaid but this is long enough as it is. |
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2010-08-04, 11:12 | Link #254 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
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my thoughts on the chapter is this is what Miria will do, taking down the org without dragging her friends with her, she has prepared to die in doing that what happened to Clare and the rest? now, another month of waiting... |
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2010-08-04, 11:23 | Link #255 |
Angriest Angel
Join Date: Nov 2007
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What i am still asking myself is how they managed to get alicia and beth that strong.
they must have had a whole program with many pairs of twins from whom everyone besides alicia and beth were discarded. They can not produce an abyssal one with one try.
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2010-08-04, 13:09 | Link #256 | |
Thread Hijacker
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In a hole, I just need to dig myself out
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The thing is, they never once got an accurate measure of Riful's power, and hiding her true power was one of her best traits; that's why I was so sure that Alicia and Beth would be weaker then her. (They have numerous witness accounts and history to be gauge at Riful's abilities; so they basically know what they are up against, even if they have never met her before.) The opposite however ended up occuring and Alicia(at least) ended up being stronger then her, without any sort of measurement. The only explanation I can think of is simply training training training, as well as the surprise damage from the Eaters. It's not much of an explanation, but I can't think of anything else. What I do know however, is that it took all this time, plus the seven years, for Alicia to get that strong; she did not get that strong overnight. From the moment we first heard of her when Riful and Dauf first departed their mountain lair, she's been made to beat Riful. These two trainees; although we don't know how long they have been around, surely could have not have secretly had as much time as Alicia and Beth, or Miria would have definitely heard about them by now. They truly have to be trainees in the sense that they just showed up and began(perhaps late during the seven years). That's why I think they are more then likely weak, or very weak; they simply could not have made progress to be a significant threat, otherwise we would have heard about them by now.
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2010-08-04, 14:01 | Link #257 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Enjoyed the chapter, it will potentially tie Raki back into the mix. Although I did have my hopes up when Tab was slashed through and I am left wondering whether Miria will be captured in the end.
The new twins show that the Org is perfecting a process by training both twins to actively fight. They seem willing to push any corner to achieve a better product, which shows their cunning and possibly their desperation (over the war). The org is making great strides with Twins and Abyss Feeders and so I am not too surprised if they still have a few experiments to play. |
2010-08-04, 14:30 | Link #258 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
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People really need to sit back and think about Claymore it's why I like it so much, this chapter is classic Yagi work on the surface it looks like a crappy bleach chapter yet think about it and everything fits Miria acting the way she is in character and the ORG having a back up pair of twins is only logical hell even having other things up there sleeves is pretty much a fact.
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2010-08-04, 14:49 | Link #259 | |
Angriest Angel
Join Date: Nov 2007
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I am not sure if the zemas are really the parents of alicia and beth or if she simply are the parents of some nameless pair of twins which did not survive the organisation's training. It is true that alicia and beth were first unable to beat riful. they were only able to damage her up to 50% and die. But i think this is remarkable too. No normal number one could achieve this against an abyssal one. Therefore even young alicia/beth were able to beat the hell out of "after seven years" miria.
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2010-08-04, 16:04 | Link #260 |
Miria's #1 Disciple
Join Date: Apr 2007
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I have brought this up in the past, but it bears mentioning again.
The reason for Alicia and Beth's strength is probably continuous "partial awakening." We know for a fact that coming back from past your limit makes you stronger, and Alicia and Beth no doubt went over their limit multiple times while perfecting their controlled awakening. So it stands to reason continually doing this, combined with their harsh training, is what made them as strong as they were. ------- As for Miria's chances, don't forget that Miria herself is probably as strong as any #1 as an partially awakened #6 who went through years of training in the North. Combine this with how easily she defeated Audrey and Rachel, the shrimp twins are the only thing that we knew off so far that have even slowed her down. Of course, Claymore being how it is, there is a pretty good chance that whatever "trump card" it is that the Organization has will be too strong for Miria, and she will either die ( ), get captured (even worse), or be forced to retreat.
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