Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by Quakis

From the opening sequence we see a shot of some silver gauntlet possibly from that silver armour tomagura (?) Margery spoke about in the first season, so I expect we might get to see some more of that Margery-side-of-things. Well I hope that's the case though.

I honestly don't think so, since the Margery and the Silver deal was mentioned but not elaborated upon in the novels... yet.

[DazarGaidin]

We are thinking its a harem cause so far it is one :P But i do suspect something with konoe, she is behaving too strangely. The part where she suddenly looked into the sky then ran off was real suspicious too, and for crying out loud, normal people don't have birds flocking to them...

[holyman282]

Originally Posted by tabun

...wich is exactly why I am so astonished why you accept the "harem", as you perceive it. Who knows if it will stay this way? Do you have any reason to believe it will? Would it make sense in terms of the story?

I would have expected the Shana crowd to show scepticism mostly, but not this disappointment over the harem that SnS is supposedly becoming.

Do you remember the bonfire near the end of SnS Season 1? It was bait. Bait that was laid out in the 2 episodes preceding the bonfire episode. But did anyone complain? No, because there was action. Who says the events in SnS 1 thus far may not have been another diversion or the laying out of some sort of bait as well? Just more subtle. I am still more curious than annoyed.

You know you make an interesting point. That there is more to this situation then meets the eye. Perhaps the reason why Yuji lacked his usualy perceptive powers and many as said is due to the fact that the synchronisation with Hecate in S1 may have blinded him to Konoe who may or may not be Hecate herself. That would explain why he feels drawn to her and why he disreguards Shana's reactions as simply that of her being mad.

Originally Posted by grey_moon

To be honest through out my discussion with holyman, I think I know why I feel a certain disappointment in S2 so far. I blamed it on the retcon, but I think that is just the anchor of my disappointment. I realised I was hoping for much more exploration in to Margery, Wilma and other characters which I think have so much more they can show us. The retcon for me was the sign that they were going to rehash the whole YujixShanaxYoshida thing. I guess Konoe in a way is kinda a good thing as at least that gives a hopeful chance of involvement from Balle Masque.

You know from that statement i get a sense that you are getting bored at Shana S2 because they have repeated the whole love triangle with another person added in. Although I hope you weren't expecting any drastic changes to the storyline just so it doesn't remind you of S1. To be honest, the Yoshida/Shana/Yuji interactions is what draws me to Shana which with the interesting plot and action scenes makes Shakugan no Shana very enjoyable.

Perhaps you're dislike for S2 was that you found it to be repetitive of S1.

[stormy001_M1A2]

Well Yuji already suspected something deja vu as he stared into Konoe's eyes long enough and realizes that he seen this void in the eyes before, Hecate back in Seirei Den. But his belief that she is just a normal school girl prevented him to extrapolate on the deja vu feeling and her cuteness won his trust over his suspicion.

I was suspecting that Konoe is actually Hecate locked in her powers by the right hand bangle which is a Hougu in diguise. If I was right, Sydonay will not forgive Bel Peol for putting his beloved Hecate in such dangerous situation. It will be interesting fight between these 2.

[tabun]

Ah, finally some thoughts about some deeper meanings! That's great to see.

Originally Posted by holyman282

You know you make an interesting point. That there is more to this situation then meets the eye. Perhaps the reason why Yuji lacked his usualy perceptive powers and many as said is due to the fact that the synchronisation with Hecate in S1 may have blinded him to Konoe who may or may not be Hecate herself. That would explain why he feels drawn to her and why he disreguards Shana's reactions as simply that of her being mad.

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

I was suspected that Konoe is actually Hecate locked in her powers by the right hand bangle which is a Hougu in diguise. If I was right, Sydonay will not forgive Bel Peol for putting his beloved Hecate in such dangerous situation. It will be interesting fight between these 2.

I was thinking something along those lines, like I wrote in one of my earlier posts. Quite interesting to read other people's assumptions as well!

[serenade_beta]

Originally Posted by tabun

I find it funny that so many just accept that Konoe is not Hecate or is in any way connected to her. Or that this now is a harem, totally ignoring any strange behaviour. Don't any of you have doubts about all this?

Mah...

At first when she first appeared, I went "Hecate?!", but after that, I went and read her profile. After that, episodes 3-4. I really don't suspect her anymore.
Of course, there obviously is a chance, but I'll stick with "she isn't" for now.

We still have 20+ episodes, assuming it takes that long WHICH it definitely won't.
Unless Shana II receives the fate of Zero II.

Originally Posted by DazarGaidin

The part where she suddenly looked into the sky then ran off was real suspicious too, and for crying out loud, normal people don't have birds flocking to them...

Too bad this is anime, where even parents might not exist for people. There are definitely characters in anime history that have an affinity with animals and naturally attract them.

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

Well Yuji already suspected something deja vu as he stared into Konoe's eyes long enough and realizes that he seen this void in the eyes before, Hecate back in Seirei Den. But his belief that she is just a normal school girl prevented him to extrapolate on the deja vu feeling and her cuteness won his trust over his suspicion.

Actually, I have no idea what he was thinking. He just stared at her and smiled.

[lua thien]

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

Mah...


Too bad this is anime, where even parents might not exist for people. There are definitely characters in anime history that have an affinity with animals and naturally attract them.



Actually, I have no idea what he was thinking. He just stared at her and smiled.

Lack of parents... By the way, here's a question for everyone who hasn't answered this:

Say that you have a normal kid whose parents are Torches. When his/her parents burn out and vanish like other Torches do, does the kid disappear as well even if he/she is not a Torch at all to begin with?

I mean, when Torches die, all evidence of their existence is eradicated from memory so how does this work out?


Yuji looking into Konoe's eyes... it looks like Konoe's already ahead of Shana and Yoshida for his affections without any effort on her part. I wonder what it looks like to see Shana taking her anger out on Wilhelmina in Episode 5.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by holyman282

Perhaps you're dislike for S2 was that you found it to be repetitive of S1.

It is not that I dislike S2, but a lot of elements in it currently frustrate me. I am enjoying it, just as I am enjoying the discussion of it. I'm just holding out for a decent explanation of Yuji dumbness. I like your idea of the synchronisation nerfing him.

@lua thien - Wow that is a great point. How does that work? If the child suddenly disappears without a shock absorber wouldn't cause unbalance? But as you say how do u deal with parents who no longer exist? *brain hurts*

[darktruth]

I find it funny how Yuji is rather oblivious to Yoshida's feelings as well as Shana's. Does anyone remember in season 1 how Yuji quickly realised the original Yukari Hirai liked Ike? Although she did ask rather subtly if Ike had a girlfriend, Yuji still picked up on her having a crush on Ike yet he is so oblivious to Shana & Yoshida.

[UltimaWolf]

Originally Posted by darktruth

I find it funny how Yuji is rather oblivious to Yoshida's feelings as well as Shana's. Does anyone remember in season 1 how Yuji quickly realised the original Yukari Hirai liked Ike? Although she did ask rather subtly if Ike had a girlfriend, Yuji still picked up on her having a crush on Ike yet he is so oblivious to Shana & Yoshida.

Well it could be that he's the type of person that picks up things easily about other people but is oblivious about things involving himself. I know a few people that are like that, it can be alot easier somtimes seeing things happening to others and not about yourself.
All we can do is hope either Yuji does notice or figure it out, Or Shana gets her feelings sorted out and tells Yuji face-to-face what he means to her. Or somthing like that.

[alvinkhorfire]

Originally Posted by lua thien

Lack of parents... By the way, here's a question for everyone who hasn't answered this:

Say that you have a normal kid whose parents are Torches. When his/her parents burn out and vanish like other Torches do, does the kid disappear as well even if he/she is not a Torch at all to begin with?

I mean, when Torches die, all evidence of their existence is eradicated from memory so how does this work out?

Let me quote a good explanation from Kinny Riddle, from this post. If anyone need to know more about the logic behind power of existence and so on, feel free to go to Shakugan no Shana Terminology and Metaphysics Discussion Thread.

Kinny Riddle explained:
An interesting question arises concerning Torches: When a person disappear, what happens to his family?

Let's consider the following example:

Unlike time travel, where you go back in time and kill your grandfather, you end up killing your existence.

If a Denizen ends up devouring your grandfather, you will not disappear, because nothing will change the fact that you're "born". Rather, your perception of who your grandfather was will change.

You will wonder "I wonder who my grandfather was?" Your grandmother would struggle to remember how on earth did she have children, etc. But they would then come up with a "rational explanation" to explain away this "unnatural distortion" to their perception of the world.

The same applies to a Torch's physical possession. Take the hapless Hirai Yukari for example, after she disappeared (along with her just as unlucky parents), her apartment does not become vacant overnight. Rather, the stuff inside would continue to remain there, collecting dust. Neighbours would wonder "Did someone ever live here? No one's ever gone in and out for ages." (Not counting the fact that until recently, Shana never bothered staying there. )

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by darktruth

I find it funny how Yuji is rather oblivious to Yoshida's feelings as well as Shana's. Does anyone remember in season 1 how Yuji quickly realised the original Yukari Hirai liked Ike? Although she did ask rather subtly if Ike had a girlfriend, Yuji still picked up on her having a crush on Ike yet he is so oblivious to Shana & Yoshida.

well, to be fair to Yuji, Shana has on multiple occasions said she doesn't have feelings for him and rebuked his advances. (melon bread "reward" anyone?) I think we can forgive Yuji for no longer jumping to conclusions for fear of being chewed out.

as for Yoshida, I really wonder if he does have feelings for her...Well, that's a different discussion though. lets just say Yuji has about a week or two before he's guilty of ignoring Yoshida's jealously. After all, he's only seen her looking disappointed in the morning after days of Yoshida being extremely friendly with Konoe and showing no issue with Yuji's friendship with Konoe.

[Davidj]

Originally Posted by lua thien

Lack of parents... By the way, here's a question for everyone who hasn't answered this:

Say that you have a normal kid whose parents are Torches. When his/her parents burn out and vanish like other Torches do, does the kid disappear as well even if he/she is not a Torch at all to begin with?

That seems unlikely. The kid has power of existence so it can't be wiped out that way. Have you noticed the mysteriously absent parents in the house where Margery Daw sleeps off her drunks?

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by Davidj

That seems unlikely. The kid has power of existence so it can't be wiped out that way. Have you noticed the mysteriously absent parents in the house where Margery Daw sleeps off her drunks?

Now that you mention it, I wonder why Keisaku and Eita don't even notice their parents were missing, even after meeting Margery.

EDIT: OMG, there's a McDonald's reference in this episode!

[flashmagi]

Originally Posted by minhtam2448

Now that you mention it, I wonder why Keisaku and Eita don't even notice their parents were missing, even after meeting Margery.

EDIT: OMG, there's a McDonald's reference in this episode!

i always just thought it was a typical rich oversea parents stereotype used in countless other animes with male leads living alone.

im also getting real bored of S2. The relationship development seems completely reset, as shana takes back her confession and yoshida hasnt changed much. the only obvious change are the lunches. im also waiting for some more action fighting rather than a love square development. margery has pretty much been lying drunk for the entire second season so far (except for tht useless spell she sent at konoe).

the only interesting part so far is the identity of konoe. all the other stuff about the keeper or yuji's training is too vague. my guess is konoe's like a doll or clone of hecate, which hecate may eventually recall to absorb the accumulated memories with yuji.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by flashmagi

im also getting real bored of S2. The relationship development seems completely reset, as shana takes back her confession and yoshida hasnt changed much.

Keep in mind, there wasn't much to reset in the first place. At the end of S1, the relationship between Shana and Yuji was definitely NOT romantic in nature. As long as you explain away the "Yuji ga suki", _nothing_ is there to be reset. And Yuji didn't consider Shana in "that" way before, either.

the only obvious change are the lunches. im also waiting for some more action fighting rather than a love square development. margery has pretty much been lying drunk for the entire second season so far (except for tht useless spell she sent at konoe).

Well, but that is where I _do_ see developments. At the end of S1, Shana went through turmoil because she believed that Yuji was about to leave her behind. That he would not be there for her anymore. This is _not_ about romantic issues.

Now, recently, Shana is gradually getting more aware of those - her jealousy not only towards Yoshida, but now towards Konoe aswell. As someone who is much more interested in character development instead of the slashing of the monster of the week, I've been very pleased with how they depicted the gradual slippery slope not only for Shana, but also for Yoshida (since the OP indicates that Ike will eventually make his move).

So, there ARE developments, but slow ones, and on the character angle. Nicely done, imho.

the only interesting part so far is the identity of konoe. all the other stuff about the keeper or yuji's training is too vague. my guess is konoe's like a doll or clone of hecate, which hecate may eventually recall to absorb the accumulated memories with yuji.

My bet is also on a clone. Well, let's see where it goes.

[holyman282]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Keep in mind, there wasn't much to reset in the first place. At the end of S1, the relationship between Shana and Yuji was definitely NOT romantic in nature. As long as you explain away the "Yuji ga suki", _nothing_ is there to be reset. And Yuji didn't consider Shana in "that" way before, either.

Couldn't agree with you more there, like i said, looking at them going to school after the incident in the last ep of S1 nothing really has changed except that Yoshida declares Shana her rival. In fact it was the unresolved issue reguarding Shana and Yuji's relationship that actually made me want a S2 and in this season they are certainly developing it.

I don't see how you can see S2 as a reset where as i though that S1 was a reset and found that S2 is actually delving deeper into their relationship..

As for those wanting more action, you have to be prepare for character development as Shana isn't all about fighting the evil bad guys, like i said go watch some shounen anime if you want action, Shana's more about the development of characters as they face obstacles such as the Bal Masque.

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by holyman282

As for those wanting more action, you have to be prepare for character development as Shana isn't all about fighting the evil bad guys, like i said go watch some shounen anime if you want action, Shana's more about the development of characters as they face obstacles such as the Bal Masque.

Um... don't you mean shoujo (to replace the second "Shana", not "shounen")?

[HayashiTakara]

zomg I found something interesting. Near the last scene, there was symbolism to the relationship between Yuji and Konoe, When Yuji and Konoe were smiling at eachother the parent bird sat on Yuji's shoulder while Konoe had the baby bird. So if I'm right about this, there is no romantic feelings involved with Yuji towards Konoe and vice versa. I think that Konoe isn't even mentally capable of thinking about romance, its basically like a baby chick that clings onto whatever they see first and claims that thing as their parent.

lol, after writing that I see the similarity in behavior with Konoe and a baby bird, and why the writer was constantly using bird references. Thats why I believe Yuji doesn't really get why Shana is upset, since its more of a paternal feeling he has towards Konoe. Also, you gotta give Yuji credit that he never stopped thinking about Shana, cause as we all know, he does like her in that sort of way.

Edit: fixed

[SeedFreedom]

@HayashiTakara

I think you meant paternal, because Yuji as a mother... no let's not go there.