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dreamless · 2004-07-27, 15:06

okay, let me first say the result of my analysis, after rewatching some scenes from previous episodes and episode 41/42 again and again, I come to the conclusion that the Master of the homunculi is very likely to be Lyra, and Lyra is very like to be Dante.

First, remember in episode 34, when Greed enters Dante's house, Lust said "that one" is waiting for him to go there. That one could be referring to Dante, and judging from that Dante has Greed's remains, and from some of his comments from previous episodes (he came to Dante's house to meet some old friend), and Lyra said that Greed is born in Dante's house, Dante is most likely the creator of Greed and is VERY old. I mean, more than a hundred of years old considering Greed being sealed all the time. But the current Dante is obviously not that old.

Second, after Dante's death, there's something very strange about Lyra, she can be seen with a gem hanging around her neck all the time, which was not so when she was a maid and the old Dante was alive, but the old Dante had a gem on her clothes at that time.

Spoiler for screens of gems:

Also remember when the old Dante died, her body got split exactly vertically from the middle, which was where her gem was worn. So maybe the true Dante is not really a human, or no longer a human, but has her soul/will contained in gems and transfer from person to person?

Lastly and most importantly, in episode 41, there was a very strange scene, that Lyra talked to Ed that she also didn't want Scar to make philosopher's stone with the soldiers (while being supportive to Scar's plan all the time) and sent a boy to deliver a message to Mustang. And later we see that when Lust told Pride that he should send the army into Lior quickly, Pride told Lust that it was against the will of "that one". now the question comes, when did Pride receive message from "that one" telling him not to send army into Lior? Obviously in episode 40 he still prepared to send army in as soon as possible, but he suddenly changed his plan after receiving the message from Mustang, which was from that boy, which was from Ed and Lyra. And Ed was only able to send the message because of Lyra suddenly talking strange. I think this almost points directly to Lyra being "that one", ie. Master of the Homunculi.

What do you think?

wolfi_1412 · 2004-07-27, 15:11

hhm.. that could be right, but then what would be Hohenheim (spell?)'s role for this anime?

KevLar · 2004-07-27, 15:23

I'm not so sure about her being "that person" but she does look awfully suspicious.
Check this shot of her from the new intro:

Spoiler:

I think Hohenheim Elric is "that person" but i'm not certain (in fact i'm doubting). I'm sure we'll know come ep 43...

Spoiler:

dreamless · 2004-07-27, 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfi_1412

hhm.. that could be right, but then what would be Hohenheim (spell?)'s role for this anime?

Hohenheim's role is... hmm.... the Elric brother's father?

Well, Dante also knows Hohenheim of the Light, maybe he's also a disciple of Dante's? Maybe he'll come save the day when Lyra/Dante gets her hands on the philosohpher's stone?

PS: Personally I found it very interesting to rewatch the talk between Izumi and Dante in episode 33 now. Dante asked Izumi to stop the Elrics from looking for the stone, while Izumi told Dante that they will find their answers themselves... but it will definitely be different from Dante's answer. So now the Elrics have the stone in their possession, have they found their answers?

Milliniar · 2004-07-27, 15:56

i don't know why but i thought it was obvious that Lyra was dante after dante"died".......

Sonhex · 2004-07-27, 16:58

It's a good theory, Lyra clearly knew to lure Greed into the alchemic symbol on the floor of Dante's mansion plus she had his bones so she knew all about the Humonculus and how they become a Sin (by consuming proto-Philosopher's Stone to give them extended life). I wouldn't be surprised if the original Dante discovered this process and is using the proto-Philosopher's Stone herself to extend her own life, though clearly Dante's body was aging.

I suppose Lyra could have learned all this from Dante and killed her herself, but I can't see her being capable of that though unless she was so hell bent on revenge on Ed for what he did to her in Youswell. But that motive would be really hard to swollow I think. Maybe Hohenheim will have some clues about Dante that will make Ed and Al realise Lyra maybe not the real Lyra.?

The only thing that bugs me about this theory are Envy's previous comments about 'him'...

wolfi_1412 · 2004-07-27, 17:26

well, I don't think Lyra can kill Dante.. and if I'm not wrong when Ed asks Greed if he kills Dante he said sort of a 'yes' wonder why he don't tell the truth? would it be possible if actually dante doesn't want the philospher's stone hav anything to do with the Elrics and Lyra is sort of the 'evil' one, so she sort of 'take dante's power' ?

Blaat · 2004-07-27, 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonhex

The only thing that bugs me about this theory are Envy's previous comments about 'him'...

Exactly and in the 5th laboratory episode didn't Envy say "Let me kill him (Ed), he smell just like 'him'"

sOnJoOL · 2004-07-27, 19:24

im not sure in the anime version, but in the manga...

Spoiler:

Avarice · 2004-07-27, 23:14

OR maybe both Lyra and Hohenheim are the masters of the homunculus :P. hahah who knowss, its possible, aint it? lol. im pretty sure Dante did some kind of body switch and is now "Lyra" and i think Hohenheim and Dante are working together or some shiet, because Dante DOES known Hohenheim because she once commented on Ed looking like his father or she commented on something to do with Hohenheim, something that showed that she knew him so yeah.

Quote:

Lastly and most importantly, in episode 41, there was a very strange scene, that Lyra talked to Ed that she also didn't want Scar to make philosopher's stone with the soldiers (while being supportive to Scar's plan all the time) and sent a boy to deliver a message to Mustang. And later we see that when Lust told Pride that he should send the army into Lior quickly, Pride told Lust that it was against the will of "that one". now the question comes, when did Pride receive message from "that one" telling him not to send army into Lior? Obviously in episode 40 he still prepared to send army in as soon as possible, but he suddenly changed his plan after receiving the message from Mustang, which was from that boy, which was from Ed and Lyra. And Ed was only able to send the message because of Lyra suddenly talking strange. I think this almost points directly to Lyra being "that one", ie. Master of the Homunculi.

umm, btw - the person Lust was talking to in eps 41 was the The Fuhrer (Pride), it was Envy as she clearly said "envy...what are we gonna do about blah blah" and stuff, so yeah. the real Fuhrer (Pride) was at the headquarters, remember? with Major Armstrong and stuff

Lunas · 2004-07-28, 00:18

i dotn think lyra has any thign to do with any thing she is just an ex badguy that after being pointed in the right path went to study alchemy under who could possibly be her grandma or some one she learned had alot of knowlege in the matter of alchemy

the elrics father definately is either dead or the leader of the homuculi

dreamless · 2004-07-28, 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaat

Exactly and in the 5th laboratory episode didn't Envy say "Let me kill him (Ed), he smell just like 'him'"

yup but I doubt Envy is gonna badmouth the Master... not to mention calling the Master "bastard"... see how scared Gluttony is when the Master is mentioned? I think Hohenheim of the Light is more likely to be their enemies. maybe he did something that stopped one of their previous grand plans to become human or something...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarice

umm, btw - the person Lust was talking to in eps 41 was the The Fuhrer (Pride), it was Envy as she clearly said "envy...what are we gonna do about blah blah" and stuff, so yeah. the real Fuhrer (Pride) was at the headquarters, remember? with Major Armstrong and stuff

Umm... in 11:04 of episode 41, Lust clearly said "Pride, what's the matter with the sheep etc. etc." So it's Pride, not Envy. It happened after his meeting at the headquarters.

Avarice · 2004-07-28, 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamless

Umm... in 11:04 of episode 41, Lust clearly said "Pride, what's the matter with the sheep etc. etc." So it's Pride, not Envy. It happened after his meeting at the headquarters.

HAHAHA, i JUST checked the episode again at that part and you are right, she did say "Pride." haha sorry, i must've been seeing things or something

but yeah, sorry about that mistake, just me and my hallucinations

wolfi_1412 · 2004-07-28, 03:50

does ep 41 hav english subs yet?
and

Quote:

yup but I doubt Envy is gonna badmouth the Master... not to mention calling the Master "bastard"... see how scared Gluttony is when the Master is mentioned? I think Hohenheim of the Light is more likely to be their enemies. maybe he did something that stopped one of their previous grand plans to become human or something...

I sort of hear this thing from someone I forgot, they say Hohenheim might be the one that used to make the philosopher's stone but then sort of betrayed the Sins..
do you think it's possible?
So Hohenheim is their ex-master and the current master is Dante/Lyla..

GrapeSoda · 2004-07-28, 04:01

Theres 2 subs that i know of right now. but i dont know if i can tell the sub-groups and i know that i cant post the links

dreamless · 2004-07-28, 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfi_1412

does ep 41 hav english subs yet?
and

I sort of hear this thing from someone I forgot, they say Hohenheim might be the one that used to make the philosopher's stone but then sort of betrayed the Sins..
do you think it's possible?
So Hohenheim is their ex-master and the current master is Dante/Lyla..

Well, I think Dante is the Master all the time, because I think she's the oldest. At least she's obviously older than Hohenheim considering she created Greed and maybe some other Sins... I'd say Hohenheim could be like some extremely talented disciple/assistant to Dante, but later betrayed them or become the Homunculi's enemy...

Blaat · 2004-07-28, 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamless

yup but I doubt Envy is gonna badmouth the Master... not to mention calling the Master "bastard"... see how scared Gluttony is when the Master is mentioned? I think Hohenheim of the Light is more likely to be their enemies. maybe he did something that stopped one of their previous grand plans to become human or something...

They are scared of him, but that doesn't mean they cannot hate him (the master probably has their bones or atleast a way to blackmail them) because note after Envy said the mentioned sentence during the 5th laboratory accident. Lust responded by saying "We were told by him, not harm him".
Besides if they were really scared of "him" Lust wouldn't go to Scar's aid

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamless

Well, I think Dante is the Master all the time, because I think she's the oldest. At least she's obviously older than Hohenheim considering she created Greed and maybe some other Sins... I'd say Hohenheim could be like some extremely talented disciple/assistant to Dante, but later betrayed them or become the Homunculi's enemy...

In the manga it is indeed Hohenheim that's controlling them, so you can't rule out that possibility.

Fei-san · 2004-07-28, 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaat

They are scared of him, but that doesn't mean they cannot hate him (the master probably has their bones or atleast a way to blackmail them) because note after Envy said the mentioned sentence during the 5th laboratory accident. Lust responded by saying "We were told by him, not harm him".
Besides if they were really scared of "him" Lust wouldn't go to Scar's aid

In the manga it is indeed Hohenheim that's controlling them, so you can't rule out that possibility.

in the manga it's a 80 year old man controlling them, and they keep calling him father (as you call a priest father)

dreamless · 2004-07-28, 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaat

In the manga it is indeed Hohenheim that's controlling them, so you can't rule out that possibility.

well, there's so far no concrete evidence saying Hohenheim is the Father, except some wild speculation from some manga readers. I don't think the Father looks like Ed and Al's father, he's hundreds of years old, and looks like he is disabled in that scene.

And the manga and anime are now totally different anyway.

Sonhex · 2004-07-28, 08:38

One bit of additional evidence for Lyra being the Master is in Yebyosh's translation of the spoilerfull summary for Ep.44...

Spoiler:

2004-07-27, 15:06	Link #1
dreamless /Ultimate Magic Attack!!! Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Time Warp/Future	Some analysis of the Master's identity UNMASKED SPOILERS okay, let me first say the result of my analysis, after rewatching some scenes from previous episodes and episode 41/42 again and again, I come to the conclusion that the Master of the homunculi is very likely to be Lyra, and Lyra is very like to be Dante. First, remember in episode 34, when Greed enters Dante's house, Lust said "that one" is waiting for him to go there. That one could be referring to Dante, and judging from that Dante has Greed's remains, and from some of his comments from previous episodes (he came to Dante's house to meet some old friend), and Lyra said that Greed is born in Dante's house, Dante is most likely the creator of Greed and is VERY old. I mean, more than a hundred of years old considering Greed being sealed all the time. But the current Dante is obviously not that old. Second, after Dante's death, there's something very strange about Lyra, she can be seen with a gem hanging around her neck all the time, which was not so when she was a maid and the old Dante was alive, but the old Dante had a gem on her clothes at that time. Spoiler for screens of gems: Also remember when the old Dante died, her body got split exactly vertically from the middle, which was where her gem was worn. So maybe the true Dante is not really a human, or no longer a human, but has her soul/will contained in gems and transfer from person to person? Lastly and most importantly, in episode 41, there was a very strange scene, that Lyra talked to Ed that she also didn't want Scar to make philosopher's stone with the soldiers (while being supportive to Scar's plan all the time) and sent a boy to deliver a message to Mustang. And later we see that when Lust told Pride that he should send the army into Lior quickly, Pride told Lust that it was against the will of "that one". now the question comes, when did Pride receive message from "that one" telling him not to send army into Lior? Obviously in episode 40 he still prepared to send army in as soon as possible, but he suddenly changed his plan after receiving the message from Mustang, which was from that boy, which was from Ed and Lyra. And Ed was only able to send the message because of Lyra suddenly talking strange. I think this almost points directly to Lyra being "that one", ie. Master of the Homunculi. What do you think? Last edited by dreamless; 2004-07-27 at 17:18.

2004-07-27, 15:23	Link #3
KevLar ir Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: MD Age: 38	I'm not so sure about her being "that person" but she does look awfully suspicious. Check this shot of her from the new intro: Spoiler: I think Hohenheim Elric is "that person" but i'm not certain (in fact i'm doubting). I'm sure we'll know come ep 43... Spoiler: When the stray dog runs home.

2004-07-27, 19:24	Link #9
sOnJoOL Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004	im not sure in the anime version, but in the manga... Spoiler: im pretty sure hohenheim is the "Master"

2004-07-28, 08:38	Link #20
Sonhex Not dead. Yet. Graphic Designer Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: UK	One bit of additional evidence for Lyra being the Master is in Yebyosh's translation of the spoilerfull summary for Ep.44... Spoiler: ...Title: The Fame of Hoenheim In the middle of the streets of Central, there in a building that is either under construction or collapsing, slips in two figures, Rose and Lyra. In this building, in front of this two women, appears the Homunculi Lust, Sloth and Wrath. Meanwhile Ed and Al has returned to their home in Rizembul, there they encounter a person that they had not expect. And this person is...... Personal thoughts: The title says it all

2004-07-27, 15:11	Link #2
wolfi_1412 kid(%) Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: British Columbia, Canada	hhm.. that could be right, but then what would be Hohenheim (spell?)'s role for this anime?

2004-07-27, 15:56	Link #5
Milliniar otaku Join Date: Jan 2004	i don't know why but i thought it was obvious that Lyra was dante after dante"died".......

2004-07-27, 16:58	Link #6
Sonhex Not dead. Yet. Graphic Designer Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: UK	It's a good theory, Lyra clearly knew to lure Greed into the alchemic symbol on the floor of Dante's mansion plus she had his bones so she knew all about the Humonculus and how they become a Sin (by consuming proto-Philosopher's Stone to give them extended life). I wouldn't be surprised if the original Dante discovered this process and is using the proto-Philosopher's Stone herself to extend her own life, though clearly Dante's body was aging. I suppose Lyra could have learned all this from Dante and killed her herself, but I can't see her being capable of that though unless she was so hell bent on revenge on Ed for what he did to her in Youswell. But that motive would be really hard to swollow I think. Maybe Hohenheim will have some clues about Dante that will make Ed and Al realise Lyra maybe not the real Lyra.? The only thing that bugs me about this theory are Envy's previous comments about 'him'...

2004-07-27, 17:26	Link #7
wolfi_1412 kid(%) Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: British Columbia, Canada	well, I don't think Lyra can kill Dante.. and if I'm not wrong when Ed asks Greed if he kills Dante he said sort of a 'yes' wonder why he don't tell the truth? would it be possible if actually dante doesn't want the philospher's stone hav anything to do with the Elrics and Lyra is sort of the 'evil' one, so she sort of 'take dante's power' ?

2004-07-28, 00:18	Link #11
Lunas Enraged elf lover Join Date: Apr 2004 Age: 40	i dotn think lyra has any thign to do with any thing she is just an ex badguy that after being pointed in the right path went to study alchemy under who could possibly be her grandma or some one she learned had alot of knowlege in the matter of alchemy the elrics father definately is either dead or the leader of the homuculi

2004-07-28, 04:01	Link #15
GrapeSoda Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Age: 37	Theres 2 subs that i know of right now. but i dont know if i can tell the sub-groups and i know that i cant post the links