Fate/Zero - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[Moekou]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

the right of the victor.

But he's not the victor

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by AzureWrath

Not much talk about Kotomine huh? I thought it was a very nice little segment he got. The characterization he received in those few seconds told surreal amounts. Maybe it is just because I've played through F/SN though.

Might be because Kotomine is the hardest character to talk about without spoiling FSN to some extent.

But yeah, I enjoyed his little scene, as always, and it was indeed a significant one for his character, whom I expect great development from in the following episode, given the preview's contents. I do wonder what his reaction to his father's death will be... if he'll even have one, of course.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Kiritsugu's methods are based on moral relativism but his personal belief is one of absolutism.

Which is where he is similar to, in spite of it all, his Servant Saber (which has been a recurring trend for all of the Master and Servant pairs in the show). Both also put all of the burden on their own shoulders as they try to better the world in the ways they see fit, never trying to justify themselves through words (unless deeply inquired about it) and thus being hated and misunderstood by the very same people they're trying to save.

[Randomzx]

Originally Posted by Lordarrow

This was a matter of realistic threat assessment. Both Kayneth who is basically a cripple in all sense of the word and Sola who was unconscious and mutilated. I'd say that both are effectively neutralized as threats in the holy grail war. Compounded with the contract, the possibility of either of them continuing the war was effectively null. I agree with kirigitsu's actions all leading to this point. However, I cannot accept that it was necessary to force lancer to commit suicide and then kill both Kayneth and Sola in cold blood. This was also a strategically bad move and a waste of options.

Kayneth have already proven to Kiritsugu that he would still want to participate in the Grail war despite losing all of his magic circuits and having to replace his body with a doll. Not to mention, he was also proven to go ballistic when he was shot by Kiritsugu the first time and wanted to repay that favor by torturing him for tarnishing his pride.

Basically Kiritsugu have no reason to trust that Kayneth wouldn't want to fight or get revenge on him despite the fear Kayneth was showing due to the actions Kayneth have showed so far (He can't read Kayneth's mind and know that Kayneth want just to go back home with Sola and forget about the war [then again after everything settles down, Kayneth might want to hire somebody to taken down Kiritsugu for revenge, and not to mention Kiritsugu could no longer touch Kayneth])

Not to mention as sort of meta example, Kayneth was willing to even kill a priest (a supervisor of the war who just helped him) who have nothing do with his suffering and use the gun to frame Kiritsugu [yes that intention was described in the LN]

On the utility side. Regarding Lancer, I believe it would've been more sound for kirigitsu to take forcibly take control of Kayneth's command spells and force lancer to attack the other servants/masters. Irisviel should've been able to handle this. Not only would it have been a suicide run for lancer and probably weaken the other target considerably (Either Gilgamesh or rider).It also gives Lancer what he wants which is a honorable, chivalrous death. Its a win-win. and given mana constrictions, this option is even better. Killing lancer in such a way was sadistic and unjustified.

Forceful Command spells are something nobody knew how to do in this war except for the church Supervisors. Otherwise they need consent to transfer the rights.
Lancer wasn't crying over the lost of an honorable battle. His entire wish was to have a chance to start over as a knight and faithfully serve a Lord to keep his honor. The repeat of his past life rubbed salt into his wound and was too much for him to bear.

On the moral side. Sola in particular, was not a likable character, nor well developed for that matter but that does not mean she deserved to die. I find it chilling some people would say that just because she wasn't likable, it was okay to kill her. Kayneth on the other hand is more along the gray zone. Yes, he was a arrogrant a**hole. But no one deserves to go out like that. Having your loved one killed right in front of you is just plain inhumane beyond any plausible necessity, even in war.

Kiritsugu's methods were always about pragmatism. He said it himself that he doesn't acknowledge that his methods were in any way moral, and that he was willing carry all the evils of the world to reach the grail. Its the cold hearted methods that made him (an average mage) so successful in the first place.

Kiritsugu absolutely loathes himself for taking the path he did and hates every single "victory" he achieved. The reason he acts stern is because he can't handle the fact that he's taken the wrong choice every time al his life, and tries to bury that under a wall of apathy. That's why he reacts so strongly to Saber's words. Kiritsugu is as far as possible from someone who can "handle" reality, he's living in a self-created hell and trucking on out of sheer stuborness, grasping at a miracle at the end of the line to make it all worth somehing, because he doesn't even have the strength to stop and correct his path on his own. The next time he falls, it's all over since he can't handle it anymore, and thus comes about the childish walking corpse that Shirou describes when he talks about Kiritsugu.

If anything, he envies anybody who can actually stick to their guns, because he compromised his ideal almost instantly and has been hating himself all his life for it.

There were more humane ways of doing this. Kirigitsu could've easily had Maia plant a close range bullet into their spinal columns after everything was said and done. Sniping was both cruel and overkill. Especially considering that it was man in a wheelchair and a unconscious woman we're talking about here. After neutralizing Lancer, this was effectively kicking and drowning the puppy kind of sadism. Lets not forget, was there even a point in even killing them after what kirigitsu did? I don't believe there is a justification for what he did. Winning a war does not entitle anyone to just gloss away any atrocity as "justified" in the name of war. That kind of reasoning would give credence to Hitler's "final solution" as necessary and justified in name of winning because Hitler too thought it was a "necessary" minimum sacrifice to achieving world peace under his rule. The question is who determines the "minimum" and "maximum" sacrifice necessary to save the many? What right does Kirigitsu have to determine who is necessary and who isn't?

That wasn't sniping. That was the standard distance the modern rifles are fired in. Its not as close ranged as in video games or movies. Maiya needs to be so far away to not arouse suspicion and make the scheme more believable.

Soldiers were always told to aim for the body (largest target and internal organ damage is often lethal) to kill, NOT the head (small target, and not always guaranteed death).

The torso is larger than the head. Most combat scenarios take place at 30 to 250 yards minimum distance. There's a higher chance of a successful hit when aiming for the body and a good chance of hitting something vital. There is no magical duck behind cover and heal up feature in real life and medics aren't miracle workers.

A stomach wound if not treated within a rather short time frame will kill a man, same as a punctured lung. Hitting an artery will almost always cause a bleed out if the wound isn't treated within a short time frame. Hitting the heart is basically a jack pot. They're more likely to die from a heart related injury than brain related.


Basically, even real life Snipers focuses their shots on the torso.

[Phoenix6000]

Originally Posted by Lordarrow

This was a matter of realistic threat assessment. Both Kayneth who is basically a cripple in all sense of the word and Sola who was unconscious and mutilated. I'd say that both are effectively neutralized as threats in the holy grail war.

When last I checked, a wheel-chaired bound Kayneth was responsible for the death of a church official, one Risei Kotomine. Realistically speaking he was still very much a threat, even after the contract was signed. Kiritsugu was aware of this and took the necessary steps to get rid of the problem, once and for all.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

the last man left standing


the right of the victor.

Precisely. It amazes me to no end how some people just cannot accept that it's kill or be killed. The world is a terrible place to live and bad things will inevitably happen to good people.

[Meltyred]

Sola ui, most useless master ever..
Even more than Uryuu.

[Sheba]

She was so much blinded by Diarmuid's curse that she lost all judgement and foresight.

[Lordarrow]

Then I should pose a question for everyone. If the precondition of victory as the destruction of everything is it justified because victory is victory? I'm pretty sure Kirigitsu himself realized this in the end and would agree with me. To kill anyone is to save no one. Not yourself and certainly not for the greater good. To assume so is fallacious. Saving implies that you have to nip the bud of conflict before it even began.

What Kirigitsu was doing in his previous life and in the grail war was damage control. His philosophy was corrupted to the core from the very beginning. He was a assassin of the magic association and killed anyone that got in the way of goals of the magic association. His current idea of "victory" then is the result of decades of killing anyone who got in the way of his orders. Killing women and children in the process. His "pragmatism" is not ideology of a victor but a broken puppet who has killed on the behest of others for all his life. He was never in control. It became so twisted that he actually believed that the holy grail could save the world and bring an end to all bloodshed and presumedly grant himself (salvation). Would any rational person find that feasible? How could such a world exist? There was never any victory for Kirigitsu in the first place.

This is the same with archer(5th war) who endured a similar conflict and it destroyed him. Kiilling a few to save a hundred. Killing a thousand to save a million. The only logical end is killing everyone to save everyone? When does it end? The point I'm trying to make is that there was no victory in the first place and what Kirigitsu is doing is destroying everything to save nothing. Killing to satisfy a insane wish is the complete opposite of victory for anyone at all. The concept of victory does not even exist. There is no victor here. I presume this is the morale that the fate/stay and zero series is trying to pound. Victory at any cost in really no victory at all.

[Trajan]

The unintentional destruction of Saber as a character

So I'm not going to get back into the issue of whether Kiritsugu violated the contract/pledge. I think it's clear that he did, but others disagree. I will point out though that Kiritsugu's actions in the last episode, and Saber's response, show that she is in fact not an honorable knight but merely another selfish hero who will do whatever it takes to win the grail so she can fulfill her own personal desire.

Let's look at what Saber witnessed. She saw Lancer commit suicide at the order of his master, and then saw Lancer's master and Sola gunned down by Maya on order or Kiritsugu after striking a "deal" for their safety (which she clearly would have known was exacted at the price of Lancer's ordered suicide). If she were truly honorable, at this point she would have attempted to either kill Kiritsugu, or failing that, herself, because she knew she was being used as a tool by an evil (or amoral) man for his own ends. She did neither. She put her desires to continue on in the Grail War ahead of her obligations as a knight to follow her code of chivalry and pay penance for her master's treachery.

Let us not forget that in the duel with Lancer, Saber refuses to use her left arm because she knows that the only reason she has use of it is because her master informed Lancer that it had the power to defeat Caster. But now we are expected to believe that Saber has no response to her master's dishonorable intervention in her duel with Lancer and her master's violation of the spirit, if not the letter, of his agreement with Archibald? Fine, I say she should have acted, but she did not. Therefore there is but one conclusion: Saber's invocation of "honor" is disingenuous and she uses it only to take advantage of her opponents. In this sense, she is the perfect servant to Kiritsugu. But as a noble character, she is a fraud.

She serves a master who stands against everything she believes in, and yet she does nothing to attempt to sever these bonds of servitude. As for honor, after this episode she clearly has none. Her character has been ruined by the writers in their quest to create a "clever plan" by Kiritsugu and she has become nothing but a selfish killer who will serve whomever she must in order to fulfill her own greedy ends. Saber has become a less interesting copy of Gilgamesh and she should die a traitor's death.

[Eater of All]

Originally Posted by Lordarrow

Then I should pose a question for everyone. If the precondition of victory as the destruction of everything is it justified because victory is victory? I'm pretty sure Kirigitsu himself realized this in the end and would agree with me. To kill anyone is to save no one. Not yourself and certainly not for the greater good. To assume so is fallacious. Saving implies that you have to nip the bud of conflict before it even began.

What Kirigitsu was doing in his previous life and in the grail war was damage control. His philosophy was corrupted to the core from the very beginning. He was a assassin of the magic association and killed anyone that got in the way of goals of the magic association. His current idea of "victory" then is the result of decades of killing anyone who got in the way of his orders. Killing women and children in the process. His "pragmatism" is not ideology of a victor but a broken puppet who has killed on the behest of others for all his life. He was never in control. It became so twisted that he actually believed that the holy grail could save the world and bring an end to all bloodshed and presumedly grant himself (salvation). Would any rational person find that feasible? How could such a world exist? There was never any victory for Kirigitsu in the first place.

This is the same with archer(5th war) who endured a similar conflict and it destroyed him. Kiilling a few to save a hundred. Killing a thousand to save a million. The only logical end is killing everyone to save everyone? When does it end? The point I'm trying to make is that there was no victory in the first place and what Kirigitsu is doing is destroying everything to save nothing. Killing to satisfy a insane wish is the complete opposite of victory for anyone at all. The concept of victory does not even exist. There is no victor here. I presume this is the morale that the fate/stay and zero series is trying to pound. Victory at any cost in really no victory at all.

This is all very true in our world, except the Grail is such an omnipotent device that can end all strife. It's already been argued that history serves as no evidence for the futility of Kiritsugu's struggle, because the Grail is a history-defying artifact.

[Moekou]

Originally Posted by Phoenix6000

Precisely. It amazes me to no end how some people just cannot accept that it's kill or be killed. The world is a terrible place to live and bad things will inevitably happen to good people.

The difference is that being killed isn't always a negative thing in some's eyes-especially the eyes of people with ancient values that were deemed heroes. Lancer would have felt great joy to be slain by Saber and vice versa had they been able to conclude with an honorable duel. The assumption that everyone should prioritize the Grail is folly. Just two Grail wars earlier, an emphasis on honorable conduct was the norm for many societies. Enemies wept for the deaths of great enemy generals that killed many of their friends. It was only in the last century that the world of war grew much more cynical.

Furthermore, it isn't kill or be killed. Masters, by theory, could flee to the church for sanctuary. As shown, mages are very old fashioned and do value proper duels, and this is how grail wars are expected to be in the first place. Men like Kiritsugu are the anomaly in the system. There's no reasons to expect great men and women of valor that became deemed Heroes for their grand way of life would drop their code of honor immediately just because a few mavericks in an unfamiliar time are behaving dishonorably

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Wait a second, now - no disrespect to F/SN whatsoever, but you can't be serious. The first? Alan Moore predates F/SN by almost half a century as a writer, and I wouldn't even give that honor to him.

In anime and visual novel of course... There's no doubt that the real question about this topic can be dated back to even Greek era. But the from my (maybe limited) experience, Nasu was the first one who wrote and present about this dilemma so well in the VN.

Originally Posted by Moekou

The difference is that being killed isn't always a negative thing in some's eyes-especially the eyes of people with ancient values that were deemed heroes. Lancer would have felt great joy to be slain by Saber and vice versa had they been able to conclude with an honorable duel. The assumption that everyone should prioritize the Grail is folly. Just two Grail wars earlier, an emphasis on honorable conduct was the norm for many societies. Enemies wept for the deaths of great enemy generals that killed many of their friends. It was only in the last century that the world of war grew much more cynical.

Furthermore, it isn't kill or be killed. Masters, by theory, could flee to the church for sanctuary. As shown, mages are very old fashioned and do value proper duels, and this is how grail wars are expected to be in the first place. Men like Kiritsugu are the anomaly in the system. There's no reasons to expect great men and women of valor that became deemed Heroes for their grand way of life would drop their code of honor immediately just because a few mavericks in an unfamiliar time are behaving dishonorably

And then that master who flees to the church make a new contact with a servant who lost his master, thus prolonging the war and could cause more collateral damage.

It's not important that what the servants want. Holy Grail War is about getting the Holy Grail. The war happens and there will be people that will die because of it. Why don't it with the most efficient way that would kill least people (6 masters, servants are not people) in the shortest amount of time? If killing 6 people, who don't even regard the value of lives in the normal sense, can potentially prevent the lost of 100 lives (kill by stray NPs blasts, witness the fight and have to be silenced, etc.) then it's totally make sense to act like Kiritsugu.

[Moekou]

Originally Posted by Trajan

[B]
Let's look at what Saber witnessed. She saw Lancer commit suicide at the order of his master, and then saw Lancer's master and Sola gunned down by Maya on order or Kiritsugu after striking a "deal" for their safety (which she clearly would have known was exacted at the price of Lancer's ordered suicide). If she were truly honorable, at this point she would have attempted to either kill Kiritsugu, or failing that, herself, because she knew she was being used as a tool by an evil (or amoral) man for his own ends. She did neither. She put her desires to continue on in the Grail War ahead of her obligations as a knight to follow her code of chivalry and pay penance for her master's treachery.

That's because King Arthur, above all else, believed in the law and was destroyed by it. A knight (or samurai) by their codes are sworn for the duty to their masters for life, by way of chivalry or bushido. That's why it is a common theme in Japanese samurai films for for there to be such great emphasis on finding a worthy master to serve, because once you commit, there's no backing out. She had already pledged to serve in this war, and like a good soldier, she is not supposed to go gunning down her commanding officer just because she doesn't like his methods in killing enemies

[raruku]

Lancer death is so plain.

And I thought it's gonna be epic when I read the LN (with kujiura's sound etc.)

[Moekou]

Originally Posted by Alaya

And then that master who flees to the church make a new contact with a servant who lost his master, thus prolonging the war and could cause more collateral damage.

It's not important that what the servants want. Holy Grail War is about getting the Holy Grail. The war happens and there will be people that will die because of it. Why don't it with the most efficient way that would kill least people (6 masters, servants are not people) in the shortest amount of time? If killing 6 people, who don't even regard the value of lives in the normal sense, can potentially prevent the lost of 100 lives (kill by stray NPs blasts, witness the fight and have to be silenced, etc.) then it's totally make sense to act like Kiritsugu.

It does. I'm not a Kiritsugu basher and I totally understand his viewpoint. I'm merely saying every character has reasons for their actions, since some people were calling characters like Lancer and Saber morons for valuing chivalry, simply because to them and some other Servants, the Holy Grail War isn't just about winning the Holy Grail. Servants have their own reasons, some of which don't prioritize winning for the sake of the grail even if they do want the grail. For example, Gil just wants to be entertained and Caster just wants to get laid.

[Phoenix6000]

Originally Posted by Moekou

The difference is that being killed isn't always a negative thing in some's eyes-especially the eyes of people with ancient values that were deemed heroes. Lancer would have felt great joy to be slain by Saber and vice versa had they been able to conclude with an honorable duel.

I am very much aware of this, as the dialogue between the two revealed. Lancer especially tends to hold his code of honor over everything else. He is genuinely committed to his cause, but so too is it his Achilles Heel.

He has been betrayed and screwed over time after time, and just when it seemed as if he had found a measure of redemption through fighting Saber, her master shatters that illusion and leaves her looking like an accomplice to murder. Lancer had every right to be outraged with the result.

Originally Posted by Moekou

Furthermore, it isn't kill or be killed. Masters, by theory, could flee to the church for sanctuary. As shown, mages are very old fashioned and do value proper duels, and this is how grail wars are expected to be in the first place. Men like Kiritsugu are the anomaly in the system. There's no reasons to expect great men and women of valor that became deemed Heroes for their grand way of life would drop their code of honor immediately just because a few mavericks in an unfamiliar time are behaving dishonorably

Me thinks that you're preaching to the choir.

What I was trying to get across was that in all worlds, our own included, pain and misfortune befall those that do not necessarily deserve their company. I'm not saying Sola was innocent, but watching her get destroyed like that made me cringe. Even so, I still acknowledge the cruelness of reality. Women and children die all the time and sometimes in far more gruesome fashion. Some are born sick or get stuck in inescapable poverty. Life isn't fair.

As you may have noticed there are those among us that continue to condemn how Kiritsugu handled his business, because his methods conflict with their view of how things should be. I also suspect that it is because they have yet to accept that the world they live in is full of tragedy, evil and random chance.

[Haak]

I'm a little confused. Why was it Team Lancer that got the extra command spell when all Lancer did was stop Berserker from killing the Servant who actually defeated Caster? Does that mean the Kotomine's dad would have to give command spells to every master? Is that why Kayenth shot him?

Anyway I wonder how Kotomine will react to seeing his father's dead body. Since he was shot, Kotomine is obviously going to think it's Kiritsugu that murdered him. I guess that might have been Kayneth's intention as well.

Anyway, it was really brutal seeing Lancer's death. That dude sure was pissed. A major contrast to his usual chivalrous self.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Haak

I'm a little confused. Why was it Team Lancer that got the extra command spell when all Lancer did was stop Berserker from killing the Servant who actually defeated Caster? Does that mean the Kotomine's dad would have to give command spells to every master? Is that why Kayenth shot him?

That's correct: without Lancer, Saber would have been in huge troubles with Berserker, so his involvement was necessary.
Theorically speaking, Saber, Lancer, Archer and Rider's masters would get a command spell (Gil implication is questionable, but Rider is also necessary since he stalled time big time).

[Crontica]

Originally Posted by hero147

Reminds me of Kenny from South Park.

I don't see why Kiritsugu had to kill Kayneth though. I honestly couldn't see him as a threat anymore with the state that he was in. Though I feel better about Kiritsugu with his little speech at the end.

That so called "non threat" just killed the administrator and supervisor for the war. Honestly he got what was coming to him, just not in that fashion.

Without the admin abominable beings like caster and serial-kun would run amok in the war eventually leading to a martial law scenario, heck if the Admin had died before caster was brought under control half of the town would have been gone, i think Kiritsugu was disappointed that Saber would put her playtime above the immediate threat of an entire city.

Most of the servants do not realize how good they've got it protected by a proper celestial revival contract, most people who do not have it are eating the boot of some bitchy bastard in some inexplicable fashion.

As for Kiritsugu his fate is over, he doesn't even realize he is walking into a brave new world scenario, i guess that is what you get for focusing too much on your mission and not even properly researching what the fuck you are heading into.

[Morisato]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

Kiritsugu would kill 5 children to save 10 people. That's his tragedy; he views every single person as equally worth saving and thus will sacrifice the least to save the most.

He's wrong but he doesn't know it yet. In any case, gaining an single unlimited wish certainly would solve everything and he is willing to sacrifice himself in totality to gain it (the new world he wishes for won't include himself).

How is that wrong? What are the alternatives? Have all 15 people killed? Kill 10 adults to save 5 children?

He's just being a realist. Don't say crap like "The correct answer is to save all 15 people". That only happens in shounen and superhero comics.

[Makall]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Kiritsugu is, in his way, doing what he thinks is right. The problem is, he's going strictly by his own code to make that decision - that's where the ego is. The fundamental structure of Kiritsugu's argument is built around the notion that he's right and doesn't need to entertain any other possibility.

How is this any different from the other characters in the series? Saber thinks chivalry is right and doesn't entertain any other possibility. Except her failed ideals have been obvious.

If Saber had her way, she would've kept the curse preventing her from using Excalibur to one-shot caster. What would be the consequences of that? Oh yea, a bunch of (innocent) people will die as the monster grows. You keep saying that Kiritsugu is wrong but if it weren't for him forcing Lancer's (his chivalry isn't as bad as Saber's) hand, they would have never beat caster in time.

What else is Kiritsugu going to base his decisions on? He doesn't pretend to be good. He is what he is.

What about Tokiomi vs Kariya's point of view on Sakura's situation? Are either of them wrong? Judging by your view on Kiritsugu, I can tell you think Tokiomi is wrong.